Is apostasy allowed in Islam?

[Woodrow]

Is the Hadith really that clear in making the distinction about treason. The court that condemned that pregnant lady in Sudan to death for apostasy would have been more qualified than you. As would the court in Iran who condemned the Christian pastor. These are experts in the hadith making these rulings.

Neither was in a recognized Shariah Court.

Do you have any evidence either was following any one of the 4 recognized Madhabs (Which are based upon Hadith.) The Scholars that wrote the Madhabs were much more familiar with the Ahadith than anyone living today.

None of the 4 Madhabs require the death penalty for Apostasy. While an Apostate can be executed, the conditions to allow the Death Penalty require much more than apostasy. Under one of the Madhabs (Hanafi) Apostasy is not to be viewed as a crime.

See my above post

ADDENDUM: Neither Court the one in Sudan nor the one in Iran, made any claim that apostasy is a capital crime. In both cases the Charges were not Apsostasy. Neither was given the death sentence for Apostasy.

You might have a valid claim the Charges were fabricated because both were Apostates and Charges had to be fabricated to get the Death sentence. But, that shows both courts knew Apostasy alone does not carry the death penalty.

 

[greenhill]

why have 100s left the UK to join ISIS? did they not know that their version of truth is wrong?

Don't know. Why? Why people do things is not something we can say with absolute authority because it is their decision and not our own. Sometimes people are 'reactionary' they do because theydemand a change. Like many who would vote for the opposition party in elections just to teach their party of choice a lesson. This question is misleading and has no relevance to the 'title' post.

Ardianto's response is the most interesting to me because you (Ardianto) seem to be saying that apostates ought to be punished but you choose not to because there is a higher law or virtue. And that higher law or virtue is... mercy? I don't know if you learnt that from the Koran, instinctively or from some place else. Does the Koran tell you that mercy is a higher virtue than justice?

Again, this question is not relevant.

Let us take another law (similar) about cutting hands for stealing. The law is there but often it is down to the person who is entrusted to make the decision to spell out the punishment. He will weigh the points at hand and deliver the verdict based on his findings. Then we have a result. What you are talking about is the result. Not the same result for every similar circumstance does not mean the deen is wrong, but the implementation of the understanding.

I'm merely pointing out that on a subject like this, which i presume should be an important one, there exist just within this community a number of views.

I don't believe it to be an important one. As I said in my earlier post, this is a peripheral matter made into a centre piece.

What is important? That Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful. That life is a test and that we should perform righteous deeds and abstain from wrongful deeds. And the guide is given as to what is permissible and what is not. These are things that should be highlighted and not the obvious (as you have pointed out) discrepancies in the interpretation of certain hadiths or snippets from the Quran.

What I see is that the majority's stand is on 'treason'. SOme people are for 'public caning' in schools and some are not. Who is right?


Peace :shade:

 

[greenhill]

But Greenhill-
how can the religion be perfect with hadith like that?

There was once a question posed to me... 'Can God create a rock bigger than HE can carry?' Either way the question tries to prove that God is not All Powerful. Either way we chose to answer, does not give a true answer. The thing is, we, ourselves may never know the true reason for many things, just as Moses never knew why and Khidr was doing. So, the perfection of religion is what Allah claimed for us and we ought to believe it. If we do not understand then perhaps our capacity for understanding is limited (for now).

If we were to delve in to it slightly deeper, (perhaps spiritually) and not look at it to provide an 'escape clause', if we found the deen to be the one, and after researching we chose to revert, and some time down the road you chose to leave, again, that is your choice. The community (wherever they are) may not like it. But if you wee to publicly say and cause a few people to be 'riled' up by your action, they might dig up some sayings or hadith or quote verses to have you punished for being a bad influence on other believers. That is their cause of action. Not the entire population.

Peace

 

[ardianto]

Ardianto's response is the most interesting to me because you (Ardianto) seem to be saying that apostates ought to be punished but you choose not to because there is a higher law or virtue. And that higher law or virtue is... mercy? I don't know if you learnt that from the Koran, instinctively or from some place else. Does the Koran tell you that mercy is a higher virtue than justice?

According to the law, someone who steal someone else's property should be punished. We need law like this to prevent people steal other people's properties. But can we punish someone who stole a bread because hungry same as we punish professional thief who stole cars many times?.

What is higher than law is justice. It's very injustice if we give same punishment to two persons who stole because different reason.

I was born in Muslim family. And like many other Muslim boys I also learned Islam since I was kid in years of 70's (I am almost 47 now). My Islamic teachers taught me, not only aspect of relationship between human and God like how to perform salah, how to fast, but also taught me the aspect of relationship between human and human. They taught me about love, compassion, mercy, tolerance, care, and many things in human and human relationship.

I was born in a family with good financial condition. It made my life was so easy. My teachers knew it, and then they reminded me that I should be grateful since I was born in family like this, because Allah could make me born in poor family, and then my life would be difficult. My teachers told me to imagine if I was born in poor family, then what was my life?. This is what made me could understand a situation that happened to someone and not fast to judge.

Yes, like in case of apostasy.

There are Muslims who too fast in judging other Muslims who leave Islam without they try to see the background of this cases. Not every Muslim knows that there are people who left Islam because felt disappointed. They were hungry, but their wealthy Muslim neighbors did not care although they had many foods. Those wealthy Muslims did not help those poor Muslims although those poor Muslims begged for it. It made those poor Muslims lost their faith, and they then moved to other religion because people from this other religion promised them to help.

Who should be punished in this case?. The poor who left Islam to save their life from die from starvation?. Or the wealthy Muslims who neglected prophet Muhammad (saw) command to always care to their neighbor and not let their neighbor hungry?. Remember what I've said that what is higher than law is justice. And justice is one thing that I've learned from Islam.

I know, there are Muslims who say that those who leave Islam should be punished. But I hope they know too that punishment for apostasy is not always implemented automatically. Those apostates can be given a chance to back to Islam, and the Muslims should make the door of Islam always opened.

But unfortunately, there are people outside Islam who try to convince other people that if someone leave Islam, then he/she would be killed. Actually it's to make people who interested to accept Islam feel scared. No, no, I don't accuse you try to spread rumor like this too. I know you have heard about this, and you feel curious. That's why you made this thread. And I very appreciate it.

 

[daveyats]

According to the law, someone who steal someone else's property should be punished. We need law like this to prevent people steal other people's properties. But can we punish someone who stole a bread because hungry same as we punish professional thief who stole cars many times?.

What is higher than law is justice. It's very injustice if we give same punishment to two persons who stole because different reason.

I was born in Muslim family. And like many other Muslim boys I also learned Islam since I was kid in years of 70's (I am almost 47 now). My Islamic teachers taught me, not only aspect of relationship between human and God like how to perform salah, how to fast, but also taught me the aspect of relationship between human and human. They taught me about love, compassion, mercy, tolerance, care, and many things in human and human relationship.

I was born in a family with good financial condition. It made my life was so easy. My teachers knew it, and then they reminded me that I should be grateful since I was born in family like this, because Allah could make me born in poor family, and then my life would be difficult. My teachers told me to imagine if I was born in poor family, then what was my life?. This is what made me could understand a situation that happened to someone and not fast to judge.

Yes, like in case of apostasy.

There are Muslims who too fast in judging other Muslims who leave Islam without they try to see the background of this cases. Not every Muslim knows that there are people who left Islam because felt disappointed. They were hungry, but their wealthy Muslim neighbors did not care although they had many foods. Those wealthy Muslims did not help those poor Muslims although those poor Muslims begged for it. It made those poor Muslims lost their faith, and they then moved to other religion because people from this other religion promised them to help.

Who should be punished in this case?. The poor who left Islam to save their life from die from starvation?. Or the wealthy Muslims who neglected prophet Muhammad (saw) command to always care to their neighbor and not let their neighbor hungry?. Remember what I've said that what is higher than law is justice. And justice is one thing that I've learned from Islam.

I know, there are Muslims who say that those who leave Islam should be punished. But I hope they know too that punishment for apostasy is not always implemented automatically. Those apostates can be given a chance to back to Islam, and the Muslims should make the door of Islam always opened.

But unfortunately, there are people outside Islam who try to convince other people that if someone leave Islam, then he/she would be killed. Actually it's to make people who interested to accept Islam feel scared. No, no, I don't accuse you try to spread rumor like this too. I know you have heard about this, and you feel curious. That's why you made this thread. And I very appreciate it.

Thank you Sir. Yes, the law exist to met out justice but God doesn't desire only justice, He wants us to exercise compassion, mercy and love. God is love, and mercy and compassion comes from Him.

I wish there were more who think like you. God bless you.

 

[daveyats]

What I see is that the majority's stand is on 'treason'. SOme people are for 'public caning' in schools and some are not. Who is right?

That depends, you see Apostasy is an offence against God so you have to refer to the religious text to know what is the correct and appropriate response. In this case you'll have to refer to the Koran. and I pointed out again and again, if one muslim interprets the appropriate punishment for apostasy to be death and another interprets the death penalty as appropriate only if the apostate commits treason, both of them cannot be correct at the same time. At least more right/closer to the truth than the other.

personally I can find many more problems with the justification that the death penalty should be given to apostates who commit treason but i'll just leave it as that...

 

[greenhill]

personally I can find many more problems with the justification that the death penalty should be given to apostates who commit treason but i'll just leave it as that...

That is right, 'personally' you find. Everybody also 'finds'... hence we have many findings. Ultimately, what is the fear? That a person cannot leave the deen? That is between himself and the All Mighty God. There have been prophets who have had children and wives destroyed in calamities. They could could determine the destiny of their own families. What right have we got to determine the destiny of others? If a person choses to 'murtad', depending on his circumstances the outcome can be different.

Coming back to the topic, perhaps it won't be first time offenders, etc... but for people who seriously incite unrest via religious misinterpretations etc. (citing examples here, not specifics). Islam is for peace. Religious freedom was always a key element in any islamic society. But when people openly (or secretly) spread malicious lies and cause disharmony and distrust amongst a community then, I believe the punishment for these kinds of people should not be an easy death! But that is an extreme proposition. Really I don't want to have any body killed. Allah is the best of meting out retribution. But we cannot really allow rapists to roam the streets.

Peace :shade:

 

[Muhammad]

This issue seems to be causing confusion for both sides. For anyone who wishes to research the matter, it is best they refer to what the scholars and people of knowledge have said, as is the teaching of Islam. Unfortunately there are some very odd statements that have been made in this thread, perhaps due to us speaking without knowledge and placing our intellect above the sacred texts of Islam. The punishment for the apostate is something that has been explicitly mentioned in the Sunnah, something that was implemented by the Companions, and scholars have quoted a consensus on the issue. Sadly, some Muslims approach the issue seeking to appease western mindsets and others adopt modernistic methods so that they re-interpret what the Ummah has agreed on for centuries. What some contemporary writers may have said does not invalidate the established consensus.

A few specific points need to be noted:

1.
(a) When deriving rulings, the Qur'an and Sunnah must be considered together, never exclusively. A person cannot use a verse of the Qur'an to derive a conclusion by which he then judges the hadeeth. There is no distinction between the Qur'an and the Sunnah in terms of legality, for the Prophet :saws: said, 'I have indeed been given the Qur'an and something similar to it besides it...' [Abu Dawud]. He :saws: also said, '"Lo! Soon a Hadith from me will be conveyed to a man, while he is reclining on his couch, and he says: 'Between us and you is Allah's Book. So whatever we find in it that is lawful, we consider lawful, and whatever we find in it that is unlawful, we consider it unlawful.' Indeed whatever the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made unlawful, it is the same as what Allah made unlawful."' [Jaami' at-Tirmidhi Vol. 1, Book 39, Hadith 2664].

(b) The clear/specific texts are the ones which are used to interpret the ambiguous/general, not the other way round.

(c) We do not cast doubts on hadeeth simply on the basis that they don't sit well with our feelings. I am surprised that a suggestion was made that hadeeth in Sahih Al-Bukhari can be considered 'weak'. Did we totally forget what Imam al-Nawawi :rh: said: The ummah is unanimously agreed that these two books are saheeh and it is obligatory to follow their ahaadeeth. [Tahdheeb al-Asma’ wa’l-Lughaat (1/73)]. And Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: 'There is no book beneath the canopy of heaven that is more sound than al-Bukhaari and Muslim, after the Qur’aan.' [Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (18/74)].

2. What we believe to be an objective of Shari'ah cannot be used to wipe out a ruling. What is true justice and mercy is that which is outlined by Allaah :swt: through His divine revelations, not our intellect.

3. We must be cautious when discussing the wisdom behind the ruling of apostasy. Jamal Zarabozo writes:

...the complete reasoning why an apostate should be killed is not explained in the text (other than the specific case in the other hadith of abandoning the community). Hence, any discussion of the reason behind the act can be considered no more than speculation and conjecture. This is a very important point because some people try to “defend” this law by deriving reasons behind it, such as the commonly heard argument that apostasy is a threat to the state and is therefore tantamount to treason; thus the state has the right to kill said individual. This rational argument is sometimes answered simply by saying, “I do not think that an individual’s apostasy is a threat to the state.” The fact is that the complete wisdom behind this ruling is not explained to humans in the texts of the Quran or Sunnah. For example, it could possibly be the case that if someone has grown up and is living in an Islamic state, there is no rational excuse for him to give up the religion of Islam and become an apostate. Perhaps such an act by such a person is so grave that God, his Creator, deems that he is no longer deserving of life. This would definitely be God’s prerogative from an Islamic perspective. Again, this author is not stating that this is the wisdom behind the law of apostasy but is only saying that the real wisdom behind this law is not explained in the text and one must be cautious about stating what the reasoning is.​

4. We must also be cautious about saying the punishment of apostasy is only applied to those who actively wage war against Islam. This is not how the hadeeth on the topic were understood. In fact, there are hadeeth about apostates being killed who did not fight or cause mischief.


5.

In terms of Islam being perfect. Do you think the relevant hadith about apostasy is perfect ?

Of course we do. Standing firm upon the principles and rulings of Islam is the source of our survival, success and salvation. It is a great pity that people like yourself have failed to follow laws written in your own Book and ascribe imperfection to God by denying He could put forth such laws (even though they are clearly written). The only arguments that people have put forward against the law of apostasy are emotional and subjective views, nothing intellectual.

6.

If truth is absolute, this question should be asked. Muslims believe in absolute truths because you believe absolutely that Allah is the true God. So why is there an inability to be absolute about this subject?

Firstly, not every issue is absolute. There are foundational matters in Islam which are absolute, like the example you gave that there is only One God being worthy of all worship. But there is also room for different opinions on other issues like jurisprudential matters. The core message of all the Prophets since the beginning consisted of one unchanging message relating to creed. But they also had different laws for their people, depending on what God saw fit for that time and place.

Regarding the differing views in this thread, it comes down to the fact that you've asked us lay people. As I mentioned before, you would be better placed to ask the people of knowledge to get a clearer answer.


I don't see any purpose in continuing this thread, which only seems to be going in circles and creating confusion. I'd like to end by mentioning the advice of another brother:

I advise myself and others to be cautious and let not the approach of "beautifying the picture of islam in the eyes of the west" drive us away from its core and lead us to compromise facts and principles that are agreed on. Islam is beautiful without the need of people's opinion on it. In addition, the approach of da'wa that was implemented by the Prophet :saws: and His companions was always initiated on the principles of Islam as Islam views them and not as people would like to view them.

May Allaah :swt: guide us all to what is correct and forgive us for any wrong we may have said, Aameen.