Is being nationalistic also being extremist?

[Abdul Fattah]

I've said this about 10 times on this forum already, but I think it is worth repeating :statisfie. Islam is not against nationalism, it is only against nationalism based on anything but Islam. What else is this whole concept of the 'Ummah' ruled as an 'Islamic state' for the 'Muslim people'? Give me one characteristic of nationalism that is not also present in Islam.

Nationalism is always based on nationality. Nationalism cannot be faith-based. Ummah has nothing to do with nationality as Islam is a religion for the whole of mankind. Like the verse made clear, in Islam we believe that someone can only be superior based on his actions (good person better then bad person) and not on the place they were born or the race they have. That's the difference between nationalism and Islamic ummah.

 

[Cognescenti]

Nationalism is always based on nationality. Nationalism cannot be faith-based. Ummah has nothing to do with nationality as Islam is a religion for the whole of mankind. Like the verse made clear, in Islam we believe that someone can only be superior based on his actions (good person better then bad person) and not on the place they were born or the race they have. That's the difference between nationalism and Islamic ummah.

Abdul;

I think you missed what I take to be Kading's point. His point seems to be that the concept of Ummah has many features akin to nationalism...collective identity, collective sense of purpose, shared values, collective defence against outsiders, duty to others within the group...etc etc.

 

[Keltoi]

It depends on what form of nationalism we are talking about and how that nationalism manifests itself. Patriotism can manifest itself in extreme ways, or it can simply be a sense of pride in nationality and the desire to make a country better...or it can be a blind motivation to justify almost any act.

 

[duskiness]

this discussion is quite strange. May it is just a case o my mother tongue but there is a difference between nationalism (extreme-right ideology claiming that one nation is superior to others) and patriotism (which is rather a feeling, connection, love of one's country/nation/culture without any need to prove that other are inferior)
Degenerated patriotism may turn to nationalism, like believing person can turn into religious fanatic.
If someone is willing to die for his homeland it doesn't make him nationalist.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Abdul;

I think you missed what I take to be Kading's point. His point seems to be that the concept of Ummah has many features akin to nationalism...collective identity, collective sense of purpose, shared values, collective defence against outsiders, duty to others within the group...etc etc.

Well if that was indeed his point then I did not miss it but responded to it adequately.

Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same. There is nothing wrong with collective identity, purpose, shared values, defense and duty. However there is something wrong with nationalism, because nationalism is a form of positive discrimination for people of the same race.
So if Kading's point would have been that Islam is equally worse as nationalism because of those shared values, then I responded to it adequately by pointing out that only the positive and/or neutral qualities are shared and not the negative ones.

 

[Zman]

There's nothing wrong with wanted to die for your country. I would expect the majority of British people to die for their country in Britain's time of need.

So, in your opinion, since it's ok to die for one's country, wouldn't it be ok to die for one's God?

I wouldn't expect people to join the army to fight a stupid little war to give people "a better life" in a country I couldn't give a toss about.

Are you referring to Iraq?

If so, do you still believe we went there to liberate them (the original name for our little intervention was Operation Iraqi Liberation), introduce them to deMOCKracy, and to give them a better life?

Britons are fighters, warriors. There's that Viking, Anglo-Saxon blood in us.

So much for warriors who want to become vegetarians :statisfie

 

[Fishman]

There's nothing wrong with wanted to die for your country. I would expect the majority of British people to die for their country in Britain's time of need. I wouldn't expect people to join the army to fight a stupid little war to give people "a better life" in a country I couldn't give a toss about.

Would you fight for Britain if it became fascist and America was trying to invade?

 

[Zman]

/Peace To All

I didn't vote, because I think you should of had a third option, may be called "it depends."

But my answer is Patriotism is good, as long as it isn't blind patriotism, where you'll do anything for your country (as in atrocities, illegal/immoral wars), etc.

Oddly, in America, we use patriotism, for it represents something positive and noble.

And we reserve nationalism for the Third World, since we make it to seem as something negative.

And the Third World sees nationalism as something positive/patriotic.

Moderation in everything is essential...

 

[Cognescenti]

Well if that was indeed his point then I did not miss it but responded to it adequately.

Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same. There is nothing wrong with collective identity, purpose, shared values, defense and duty. However there is something wrong with nationalism, because nationalism is a form of positive discrimination for people of the same race.
So if Kading's point would have been that Islam is equally worse as nationalism because of those shared values, then I responded to it adequately by pointing out that only the positive and/or neutral qualities are shared and not the negative ones.

Except that in the case of the US, which is often accused of being overly nationalistic, we are not of the same race (at least not now).

 

[Cognescenti]

/Peace To All

I didn't vote, because I think you should of had a third option, may be called "it depends."

But my answer is Patriotism is good, as long as it isn't blind patriotism, where you'll do anything for your country (as in atrocities, illegal/immoral wars), etc.

Oddly, in America, we use patriotism, for it represents something positive and noble.

And we reserve nationalism for the Third World, since we make it to seem as something negative.

And the Third World sees nationalism as something positive/patriotic.

Moderation in everything is essential...

Good point. about different perspectives on nationalism vs patriotism

 

[Zman]

cultivate the 'us' vs 'them' mindset.

I think that tribal mentality is in about every human being and their actions.

Between a group within a family, families, sports, corporations, states, etc.

Even between individuals. Your interests or the groups interests outweigh the other sides.

People tend to close ranks to face a common foe...

 

[KAding]

Nationalism is always based on nationality. Nationalism cannot be faith-based. Ummah has nothing to do with nationality as Islam is a religion for the whole of mankind. Like the verse made clear, in Islam we believe that someone can only be superior based on his actions (good person better then bad person) and not on the place they were born or the race they have. That's the difference between nationalism and Islamic ummah.

I disagree. The definition of nationalism you appear to be using is not the standard definition. Nationalism does not need to be based on genetic attributes like race or ethnicity. If it would be, what 'race' is American nationalism based on for example? What 'ethnicity' are the British? Some nations do indeed base their identity on ethnicity, but many other don't. In the United States it is based on vague notions like the 'American dream'. Nor is 'the place they were born' the defining factor, since many first-generation immigrants often join the nation the immigrated too, either formally by applying for citizenship or informally by somehow bonding with their place of residence.

Some features of nationalism:
* A common identity and a sense of brotherhood
* Common myths about heritage and history
* A desire to self-rule, a desire to create a state that encompasses the nation
* Exclusionary (us in the nation vs them outside the nation)

All these features are present in Islam. You have a common identity and bond with your 'brothers' and 'sisters'. You clearly have common ideas about your heritage and history as it is explained in the Qu'ran and hadiths. Muslims have a desire to create an Islamic state encompassing all Muslims. This state is expected to ruled by Muslims to the benefit of all Muslims. Even the institutions within such a state have been made explicit (Islamic courts, caliphs, shura, etc). A clear seperation is also made between Muslims 'Dar al-Islam' and non-Muslims in 'Dar al-Harb'. Few other religions share these features with Islam. If this sense of brotherhood and desire to create a state for all Muslims is not nationalism, what is it then?

 

[KAding]

Well if that was indeed his point then I did not miss it but responded to it adequately.

Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same. There is nothing wrong with collective identity, purpose, shared values, defense and duty. However there is something wrong with nationalism, because nationalism is a form of positive discrimination for people of the same race.
So if Kading's point would have been that Islam is equally worse as nationalism because of those shared values, then I responded to it adequately by pointing out that only the positive and/or neutral qualities are shared and not the negative ones.

Race has nothing to do with nationalism as such. Race can and has been used by extreme nationalists (like Nazis) to define 'the nation', but it is not at all a requirement. More often ideologies or culture are the defining attribute. Islam is such an ideology and to large extends dictates culture. My assertion is not only that Islam shares 'some' features with nationalism, let alone just the positive ones, but that it rather shares all of them!

 

[barney]

Nationalism in it's true form is pride of country, its acheivements , its ethos and its people.

If Nationalism is taken to a EXTREME...you get Facism.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I voted that nationalism is extremism, but only because of the popular understanding of what "nationalism" means where I'm from.

Where I'm at:

Patriotism is being proud of ones country and willing to defend it from attack.

Nationalism is holding ones country above all others as superior and holding its citizens as inherently superior to all others.

Patriotism is a sense of community belonging.

Nationalism is a sense of cultural superiority.

Patriotism leads to team work.

Nationalism leads to wars of aggression.

The world wars happened because of German Nationalism. Many others have also come from nationalism.

It can sometimes be hard to tell patiotism an nationalism apart, but I think the above are the signs to look for.

 

[Hashim_507]

I am not a nationalist..

 

[Fishman]

The world wars happened because of German Nationalism.

Only the second world war was caused by German nationalism. The first was caused by one of Germany's allies (Austria-Hungary) attacking one of Russia's allies (Serbia) after Serbian terrorists killed an Austro-Hungarian leader, and the complex web of alliances lead to a huge war. German nationalism made the Germans more willing to fight, as they saw the conflict as a chance to defeat national enemies, and calve out the empire that they always wanted. But Germany would probably still have fought the Entente anyway, even if they were not nationalists.

But this is a bit off topic, not to mention rather pointless...

 

[Thanaa]

Many of the Welsh in the county where I live are Nationalists.
Ive been refused permission to attend Interviews for Jobs-and told that I cant have jobs-because Im English and dont speak Welsh.
Ive also been verbally attacked at work-one woman managed to reduce me to tears-because Ive explained to people that I cant speak Welsh, and they dont like it. The most recent incident was the week before this last one.
These people behave that way because they are Nationalists.
:raging: I cant attend lessons, because the free ones are at times when Im working, and even if I could get time off to study, I cant afford to lose the money, and the ones I would need to pay for I cant afford. If I had been able to find a good job, then Id be able to afford lessons...its a vicious circle.
Also, all Welsh are bilingual...so Its not like I cant communicate with them.
Nationalism is not not necessarily extreme...It just allows extremism to breed.

 

[Cognescenti]

Many of the Welsh in the county where I live are Nationalists.
Ive been refused permission to attend Interviews for Jobs-and told that I cant have jobs-because Im English and dont speak Welsh.
Ive also been verbally attacked at work-one woman managed to reduce me to tears-because Ive explained to people that I cant speak Welsh, and they dont like it. The most recent incident was the week before this last one.
These people behave that way because they are Nationalists.
:raging: I cant attend lessons, because the free ones are at times when Im working, and even if I could get time off to study, I cant afford to lose the money, and the ones I would need to pay for I cant afford. If I had been able to find a good job, then Id be able to afford lessons...its a vicious circle.
Also, all Welsh are bilingual...so Its not like I cant communicate with them.
Nationalism is not not necessarily extreme...It just allows extremism to breed.

Thanaa;

They are merely registering their displeasure with an "occupying force". And it has been going on a lot longer than the occupation of the West Bank. Better a bit of harsh treatment at the workplace rather than strapping bombs to their children's chests, eh? I don't imagine Welsh is easy to learn. Why don't you move, to England?

 

[Ubaidah]

I'll simply answer this question like this: I love my country and I love Islam. There is not a "one or the other" situation in my eyes. I love the U.S. because I believe it's the greatest country in the world, and I love Islam because it's brought be into the light of God.