Is Evolution Compatible with Islam?

[Scimitar]

Greetings,



I think that is the kindest thing anyone has said to me on the forum in a long time. Scimitar, you're a star. :shade:

Those burn too hot

We are all members of the human species, and I very much hope that those of us who are willing to talk to each other are more numerous than those who want to restrict us and prevent us from talking to each other.

Me too! Perspective is refreshing. I believe it was Aristotle who said (paraphrasing) The sign of intelligence is in being able to entertain an idea without necessarily having to accept it!

I do like reading up on the old lovers of knowledge... they knew how to have a party in their minds

Yes indeed. People hold all sorts of beliefs and non-beliefs. You're being very clever here by using a great film to illustrate a point that you feel may has some immediate relevance, so I'll encourage a quick round of applause for that. Keaton's statement is typical of the film's paradoxes (along with "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"), but his position is clearly an absurd one, as you mention. You can't hate a being you don't believe exists, unless it's some kind of fictional character, for example. I don't think too many misotheists exist in reality.

I haven't met many misotheists in reality, but online - plenty. Not sure quite how that works lol. The atheists I know in real life, are indifferent to what I believe and I to their disbelief/unbelief. Although they do claim I'm reliable due to my religions teachings, which I have to say does make me smile

That's very kind of you. I would love to hear your thoughts on whether or not evolution is compatible with Islam, and lots of other topics.

Peace

I would posit that evolution can be possible within the animal kingdoms... but not when it comes to humanity. If I remember correctly, a Muslim named Ibn Khaldun was the first to theorize that all creation went through an evolutionary process - eventually resulting in man - though he didn't offer any truly scientific explanation of the process itself. It was more a blinded theory based on some dodgy induction; he did this back in the 14th century I think.... way before Darwin proposed his model.

They would have gotten along well, Darwin and Ibn Khaldun. Don't you think?

Myself, I prefer to believe that all living things which we can observe on earth have a common origin - this origin being "water"!!! But I remain staunchly repugnant to the idea of human evolution! We have very rich traditions within Islam regarding the creation of Adam which do not result in any reference to an evolutionary process! God made Adam from clay, water and some fluids. We do not read in the Qur'an that God made Adam from a monkey or pig or banana! However, God does mention that all living things are made from water!!!

Qur'an 24:45 "Allah has created every [living] creature from water. "

Amazing for this to be revealed in the 7th century to a desert dwelling Arab who knew not how to read or write. Amazing right?

 

[rafhelp]

is it just a big coincidence that before the arrival/emergence of humans ALL the dinosaurs were wiped in like one foul swoop?

It was most likely done so that Humans could live on Earth as there was no way Man and Dinosaurs could co-exist

In terms of the time between when they went extinct and when we believe humans first arrived/emerged well time could be different in heavens and Earth.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I do like reading up on the old lovers of knowledge... they knew how to have a party in their minds!

That is definitely an attitude that should be encouraged.

I would posit that evolution can be possible within the animal kingdoms... but not when it comes to humanity. If I remember correctly, a Muslim named Ibn Khaldun was the first to theorize that all creation went through an evolutionary process - eventually resulting in man - though he didn't offer any truly scientific explanation of the process itself. It was more a blinded theory based on some dodgy induction; he did this back in the 14th century I think.... way before Darwin proposed his model.

They would have gotten along well, Darwin and Ibn Khaldun. Don't you think?

Quite possibly. Ibn Khaldun made some very important contributions to science, including his idea that humans developed from "the world of the monkeys". He is a long way from being the first to mention evolution, though. Anaximander of Miletus is the earliest I'm aware of, over a thousand years previously.

Myself, I prefer to believe that all living things which we can observe on earth have a common origin - this origin being "water"!!! But I remain staunchly repugnant to the idea of human evolution! We have very rich traditions within Islam regarding the creation of Adam which do not result in any reference to an evolutionary process! God made Adam from clay, water and some fluids. We do not read in the Qur'an that God made Adam from a monkey or pig or banana! However, God does mention that all living things are made from water!!!

Your opposition to human evolution (no matter how staunch or repugnant) does have a lot of evidence stacked against it. Whereas the evidence supporting the existence of Adam is...?

Qur'an 24:45 "Allah has created every [living] creature from water. "

Amazing for this to be revealed in the 7th century to a desert dwelling Arab who knew not how to read or write. Amazing right?

Is it? Anaximander's teacher, Thales of Miletus said the same thing. We are indebted to the Muslims of the Islamic Golden Age for preserving this knowledge of ancient Greek science, and I highly recommend that everyone learn about it!

Peace

 

[Ümit]

Myself, I prefer to believe that all living things which we can observe on earth have a common origin - this origin being "water"!!! But I remain staunchly repugnant to the idea of human evolution! We have very rich traditions within Islam regarding the creation of Adam which do not result in any reference to an evolutionary process! God made Adam from clay, water and some fluids. We do not read in the Qur'an that God made Adam from a monkey or pig or banana! However, God does mention that all living things are made from water!!!

İ do not agree on this one. We are forgetting that Allah is able to make miracles happen.

Let me give you one example.
We all know how humans reproduce...right? No need for explanation.
İt requires a male and a female having sexual intercourse. Then a human being develops in the womb of the female.
There is no other way...no reproduction is possible without the male. Science...even modern science is against it.
Conclusion: İsa as must have had a father right?
Wrong!
Although it is impossible that a human being can develop without the male...Allah is very well possible of making miracles happen...

The same could be the case with evolution...
Although science points towards evolution...that humans came from monkeys...Allah could have performed a one time miracle in the creation of Adam. He could have created Adam without (ape) parents. This still does not invalidate evolution. Humans are still made from clay...just like animals...
Do not forget that clay also contains water.
We just cannot exclude evolution. The fact that the Quran does not point towards it is not enough to exclude evolution.

 

[Scimitar]

İ do not agree on this one.

You've not understood my point then I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

 

[keiv]

İ do not agree on this one. We are forgetting that Allah is able to make miracles happen.

Let me give you one example.
We all know how humans reproduce...right? No need for explanation.
İt requires a male and a female having sexual intercourse. Then a human being develops in the womb of the female.
There is no other way...no reproduction is possible without the male. Science...even modern science is against it.
Conclusion: İsa as must have had a father right?
Wrong!
Although it is impossible that a human being can develop without the male...Allah is very well possible of making miracles happen...

The same could be the case with evolution...
Although science points towards evolution...that humans came from monkeys...Allah could have performed a one time miracle in the creation of Adam. He could have created Adam without (ape) parents. This still does not invalidate evolution. Humans are still made from clay...just like animals...
Do not forget that clay also contains water.
We just cannot exclude evolution. The fact that the Quran does not point towards it is not enough to exclude evolution.

You've not understood my point then I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

Her post is a little confusing. It sounds like she believes we did not evolve but states that evolution could still be possible.

 

[Scimitar]

Greetings,

That is definitely an attitude that should be encouraged.

In Islam, learning knowledge is encouraged - else we would not have had our golden age. Shame about the Mongol magogs doing away with all that. But that's another thread.

Quite possibly. Ibn Khaldun made some very important contributions to science, including his idea that humans developed from "the world of the monkeys". He is a long way from being the first to mention evolution, though. Anaximander of Miletus is the earliest I'm aware of, over a thousand years previously.

How entertaining are you?

Your opposition to human evolution (no matter how staunch or repugnant) does have a lot of evidence stacked against it.

Well, there are six theories all vying for superiority in understanding evolutionary process - and science by its very nature is always changing as new information comes to light, take for example the theory of phlogiston, and how that turned out to be nitrogen - as Suboor explains in the OP!

Sometimes, faulty theories work up to a point, until they are disproven completely and replaced by better theories, which in turn can also be disproven that's science. So I don't put much faith in "human evolution" as I have seen no providential information for it.

Whereas the evidence supporting the existence of Adam is...?

Not required to be explained by science. But human memory. Most traditions in the world, from South America to China and all inbetween believe in the "prime pairing" who were created by God!!!

It's an axiomatic belief which doesn't require proving with science, same way one cannot prove with science that you know for a fact that you had a great great great great great grandmother - we accept we had one because it's an axiom! No science required!

Not to mention Occams Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the best. Over complicating things without merit is akin to focusing on the finger and losing all the heavenly glory - to quote Bruce Lee lol, but he made a solid point as an atheist (the irony isn't lost on me lol)

Is it? Anaximander's teacher, Thales of Miletus said the same thing.

And Muslims believe that every nation was sent Prophets and Messengers

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

We are indebted to the Muslims of the Islamic Golden Age for preserving this knowledge of ancient Greek science, and I highly recommend that everyone learn about it!

Peace

Indian mathematics and sciences, Chinese medicine and sciences, African medicine sciences, etc etc etc - all because Allah encourages the Muslim to seek knowledge which "benefits"!!!

We agree!

peace

 

[Ümit]

You've not understood my point then I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

No, you obviously did not read my post properly buddy.
My point was this:
İsa as came to this world through the same reproduction process like all humans. The only difference was the miracle that he did not have a father.

İn the same way humans may have been developed through the same evolution process like all the animals...(some apes evolving to a point tthat they almost were human) then a miracle happens and Adam as comes to the world without parents.

The whole evolution process would then still be valid...even for humans...except for that one miracle.
İn other words... That one miracle does not have to invalidate the evolution process for humans...just like the birth of İsa as does not invalidate the human reproduction process as we know it.

İ am not saying that is the way it happened...İ am saying it is plausible.
please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

You've not understood my point then I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

No, you obviously did not read my post properly buddy.
My point was this:
İsa as came to this world through the same reproduction process like all humans. The only difference was the miracle that he did not have a father.

İn the same way humans may have been developed through the same evolution process like all the animals...(some apes evolving to a point tthat they almost were human) then a miracle happens and Adam as comes to the world without parents.

The whole evolution process would then still be valid...even for humans...except for that one miracle.
İn other words... That one miracle does not have to invalidate the evolution process for humans...just like the birth of İsa as does not invalidate the human reproduction process as we know it.

İ am not saying that is the way it happened...İ am saying it is plausible.
please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

 

[Scimitar]

No, you obviously did not read my post properly buddy.!

We're talking about evolution and its compatibility with islam - not miraculous births

Peace

 

[Ümit]

Her post is a little confusing. It sounds like she believes we did not evolve but states that evolution could still be possible.

One does not believe in science in the same way one believes in God. The word "believing" carries a different load.
Science is just an approximation of the reality. İt is a tool for us to try to understand the mechanisms behind Allahs creation. We try to think out theories and formulas how stuff works. İf a formula corresponds good enough with reality...then we believe the formula is correct...but that is a different meaning of believing...untill the next guy comes along and thinks out a better, more accurate formula...so it is constantly in development.
This whole evolution idea may be proven ridiculous
After some years after developing new insights or when we made other discoveries...but right now it just seems very plausible...
So again...İ believe in Allah and his creation...İ do not believe in evolution...but İ do support it because it does not contradict with İslam and it is the best tool we have to explain the different lifeforms on Earth.

- - - Updated - - -

Her post is a little confusing. It sounds like she believes we did not evolve but states that evolution could still be possible.

One does not believe in science in the same way one believes in God. The word "believing" carries a different load.
Science is just an approximation of the reality. İt is a tool for us to try to understand the mechanisms behind Allahs creation. We try to think out theories and formulas how stuff works. İf a formula corresponds good enough with reality...then we believe the formula is correct...but that is a different meaning of believing...untill the next guy comes along and thinks out a better, more accurate formula...so it is constantly in development.
This whole evolution idea may be proven ridiculous
After some years after developing new insights or when we made other discoveries...but right now it just seems very plausible...
So again...İ believe in Allah and his creation...İ do not believe in evolution...but İ do support it because it does not contradict with İslam and it is the best tool we have to explain the different lifeforms on Earth.

- - - Updated - - -

We're talking about evolution and its compatibility with islam - not miraculous births

Peace

You either still did not get the point what we are talking about or you are refusing to look at this issue from a different viewpoint than you are used to.
Either way...never mind...

 

[Scimitar]

You either still did not get the point what we are talking about or you are refusing to look at this issue from a different viewpoint than you are used to.
Either way...never mind...

Start a topic on the miraculous nature of Jesus pbuh's birth, and you will be in your element.

Here? this thread is about the compatibility of evolution with Muslims! You're way off the mark. And beating dead horses!

@czigibson, i'll be around for another few hours if you wish to continue !

 

[Zafran]

We are indebted to the Muslims of the Islamic Golden Age for preserving this knowledge of ancient Greek science, and I highly recommend that everyone learn about it!

Nobody in history was preserving knowledge and the Muslims of the past( like any other civilization) certainly were not preserving Greek, Hindu, Chinese or Persian knowledge - there was huge debate over it just like there is now over modern science, enlightenment ideas and post modernism.

 

[Scimitar]

Nobody in history was preserving knowledge and the Muslims of the past( like any other civilization) certainly were not preserving Greek, Hindu, Chinese or Persian knowledge - there was huge debate over it just like there is now over modern science and enlightenment ideas.

Well we certainly didn’t invent the sciences lol, but we did attempt to perfect them - and a good job we did do at that!

 

[keiv]

İn the same way humans may have been developed through the same evolution process like all the animals...(some apes evolving to a point tthat they almost were human) then a miracle happens and Adam as comes to the world without parents.

The whole evolution process would then still be valid...even for humans...except for that one miracle.
İn other words... That one miracle does not have to invalidate the evolution process for humans...just like the birth of İsa as does not invalidate the human reproduction process as we know it.

Are you saying its possible that apes were still in the process of evolving to humans while Adam and Eve (pbut) were on the Earth? So humans and evolving apes were living together?

In that case, some of us are descendants of evolved apes while others are descendants of Adam and Eve (pbut)?

Or are you saying that evolution stopped once Adam (pbuh) was created? If that's the case, what happened to the evolved apes who were almost human like?

For the record, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

 

[Zafran]

We're talking about evolution and its compatibility with islam - not miraculous births

Peace

The nature of Adam (as) and Isa has have everything to do with evolutionary biology - its one of the Reasons Muslims would object to it. Of course the great flaw of any empirical science is its assumption of naturalism, so the question comes is how do Muslims view science is it scientific realism or instrumentalism?

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Scimitar]

The nature of Adam (as) and Isa has have everything to do with evolutionary biology - its one of the Reasons Muslims would object to it. Of course the great flaw of any empirical science is its assumption of naturalism, so the question comes is how do Muslims view science is it scientific realism or instrumentalism

doesnt matter to an atheist - he doesn’t believe in the “miraculous birth of Jesus” so moot point bro!

i’d rather attempt to understand czigibsons position without giving him appeals to what he would consider the appeal to miracle.

It wouldnt serve a purpose to use arguments he can not follow the logic to due to his disbelief!

- - - Updated - - -

For the record, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

Good luck with that lol

 

[Zafran]

Well we certainly didn’t invent the sciences lol, but we did attempt to perfect them - and a good job we did do at that!

We didn't do anything - it was the Muslims of the past that did it all. The history of Islam and the development of empirical sciences is a lot more complex then our romanticized view of it.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Scimitar]

We didn't do anything - it was the Muslims of the past that did it all. The history of Islam and the development of empirical sciences is a lot more complex then our romanticized view of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Im not in disagreement - and by “we” I mean the Muslims who fomented and founded the golden age period!!! Not you and I lol

 

[Zafran]

doesnt matter to an atheist - he doesn’t believe in the “miraculous birth of Jesus” so moot point bro!

Of course his epistemological and metaphysical understanding of reality is different to the Islamic understanding of it.

i’d rather attempt to understand czigibsons position without giving him appeals to what he would consider the appeal to miracle.

Hes an advocate of naturalism, so God, Miracles, prophet hood and Revelation are not in the vocabulary.

It wouldnt serve a purpose to use arguments he can not follow the logic to due to his disbelief!

The thread is called "Is Evolution compatible with Islam" - Muslims themselves have variety of views.

 

[Scimitar]

Of course his epistemological and metaphysical understanding of reality is different to the Islamic understanding of it.

It's a little "tunnel vision" I think

Hes an advocate of naturalism, so God, Miracles, prophet hood and Revelation are not in the vocabulary.

Yes, this is the point I was making So when the sister interjected with her reply to something I wrote to bro czigibson, I was a little baffled at her reasoning. If, she had instead, formed a post devoid of quote posting me, I could have entertained her more truly, however, jumping into the conversation by way of straw man is a little "bull in china shop" for my liking. I like things neat and tidy, not all over the place,

The thread is called "Is Evolution compatible with Islam" - Muslims themselves have variety of views.

They should attempt to be clear in their "views" then and not use straw men to make points! Umie, had assumed my position without even clarifying what I was alluding to. This is bad practice