Is Islam based on Biblical teachings?

[dwa2day]

Greetings Doug.

Muslims believe that God sent many messengers,...................... this is the Muslim's view on Bible and Christianity.

Regards
Ardianto

Hi ardianto
Thank you for your reply and your direct answer. Please know it not about what I believe or agree with. I simply want to know more about Islam and what form the base of their faith. In your reply you have made it clear. Thank you and be blessed, from whatever source gives you your strength.

Regards
Doug

 

[dwa2day]

Which makes me think why would you not want to follow a message that is completed ................................So that you would know.


eace:

Hi Greenhill.
You pose a very good question. “Why would you not want to follow a message that is completed?”
In essence this should be the question of this thread and most defiantly why I am asking Muslims about their faith. Yet the hard questions are answered in aggression and reasons for how bad other faiths are. For example your comment “Know Jesus, the Holy Spirit but know not God. I don't recall the Bible having a name for Him.”
This has no value or gives me any better insight or deeper understanding of the foundation and or authority the Islamic faith. So then answer the question free of contradictory statement so I to my enjoy eternity.

Regards
Doug

 

[ardianto]

Hi ardianto
Thank you for your reply and your direct answer. Please know it not about what I believe or agree with. I simply want to know more about Islam and what form the base of their faith. In your reply you have made it clear. Thank you and be blessed, from whatever source gives you your strength.

Regards
Doug

You're welcome, Doug.

 

[Abz2000]

Hi Greenhill.
You pose a very good question. “Why would you not want to follow a message that is completed?”
In essence this should be the question of this thread and most defiantly why I am asking Muslims about their faith. Yet the hard questions are answered in aggression and reasons for how bad other faiths are. For example your comment “Know Jesus, the Holy Spirit but know not God. I don't recall the Bible having a name for Him.”
This has no value or gives me any better insight or deeper understanding of the foundation and or authority the Islamic faith. So then answer the question free of contradictory statement so I to my enjoy eternity.

Regards
Doug

If you read the Quran with an open and truthfully critical mind, it should be easy to see the basics, if you continue to study and read more on the biography of the final messenger of God to mankind (may the peace and blessings of Allah the most high be upon him) from classical Islamic sources, you'll find more gems as you continue to read and re-read the Quran. Remember, Islam isn't just what Muslims believe, it is what it is and remains so free from dependence on people's opinions it's how we interpret Islam that defines us, and how Islam interprets us that defines us.

If all the people of the world were to gather together and imagine that God doesn't exist, it would not affect the fact that He exists.
It is we who need to seek the truth as individuals and as a community in order to succeed.

 

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimi
My apologies for my error it was Zafran who asked the question of how many book are in the bible and thus the explanation.
Your question can not be answered in a simple yes or no, as either answer could suggest certain doctrines of the faith of the Jews and Christians as incorrect. For example if I said NO – this would imply that Christians do not embrace the teachings found in the Old Testament which I do.

Hi Doug,

Actually no it would not - as there are many varying theologies inside of Christianity - some which outright deny the OT and others which venerate it and yet others still who think it as abrogated majorly since the NT came into being circa 325 CE.

I'll give you the answer later to the question I asked. But for now, let's examine more of what you wrote.

If I replied yes – this would imply that the Jewish faith must embrace the teachings of the New Testament and that’s not my call to make.

Nope, it doesn't. How did you come to such an erroneous conclusion? *shrugs* I asked you whether the NT is based on the OT - not the other way round lol.

The NT has elements of OT teachings inside of it but the MAIN and most IMPORTANT difference is in THEOLOGY... NT promotes 3 Gods in the form of a trinity which is Polytheism - whereas - the OT does not and remains staunch on Monotheism.

Is the NT based off the OT? Seems like a remix that had even more remixes released and they still continue today - which NT version is the correct one? There are literally hundreds of NT versions in the English translations alone - and in case you do not know it - a version is different to a translation.

I'm sure God is not the author of confusions.

More to the point this would also imply that the New Testament adds other doctrines not found in the Old Testament which would also be untrue.

The NT has lots of "interpolations" such as 1 John 5:7 and TImothy 3:16 - as is proven now according to Christian scholars of the highest eminence from across 50 cooperating denominations... putting the whole "trinity" theology into disrepute in todays times.

So therefore as already stated my answer is:-
For a Christian the bible consist of the Old & New Testament. The Old Testament is the Prophecy of the Messiah or Jesus.

NO it isn't - it's about MUCH more than that - I doubt you've read the OT at all now, sheesh. I've wasted my time here, evidently. I was expecting knowledge and comparative understanding, but got nothing from you - I am dissappointed.

New the Testament tells the Story of the fulfilment of the Old Testament Prophecy of Christ the formation of the early Church and the end time revelation of Christ. And my I add here tells the story of the rejection of Jesus by the Jewish faith.

If the Old Testament spoke of the Messiah being a son of God - then it would have already adhered to a "dualistic" theology - not monotheistic - savvy? the strange thing here is that the NT has three god beings, a father, a son and an holy ghost... if this was validated as an extension of theological principles from the OT to the NT - then we should find a dualistic theology in pace in the OT before the NT pushed for trinity...

savvy?
...The New Testament minces the contexts of the Old Testament to make it appear so... the only thing I can agree with is that the NT is a work of man and not a divine revelation - since it is attributed to four mysterious figures who never left a last name...

I am deeply sorry you do not like my answer and chose to ignore it, but that’s your choice.

Regards
Doug

Don't be sorry, my salvation does not depend upon your opinion of me.

Scimi

 

[Serinity]

Hi Serinity
Thank you for your reply. I understand from an Islamic view that the Quran, is the infallible word of Allah and it is supreme in regard to anything before it. Iam not questioning this foundation of faith by any means.
At the same time I do not question the foundation of the Jewish or Christian text of their faith. In the same manner as Muslim embrace the Quran and Hadeeth, it is the Jews and Christians choice what they chose to embrace as their faiths scripture. If Islam choses to reject other faiths scripture that’s ok with me. Let’s keep it there and follow the faith and text of our choice.
However this is not the case, there seems to be this unrelenting need to use biblical text and prophets to give Islam a base to work from but at the same time reject the very base it is referring to. It is like building a puzzle using pieces from two different puzzles, you just do not get the true picture.
Surly it would be better to claim the Quran refers to the Lost Books and Prophets of Faith and Keep the Jewish and Christian text out of the picture?
Your comment “The Bible confirms the Qur'an” then later “So to say that Islam is "based on" Biblical teaching, is fallacious.” I find this confusing and contradictory.
In addition “Islam is what Jesus, Prophet Musa and every single Prophet preached. They all preached Islam. The Oneness of Allah, and they all called to worship Allah, alone.“ This is purely an Islamic view and is not confirmed in any biblical text.



Regards
Doug

by me saying "The Bible confirms/points to the Quran" I do NOT say and it does NOT mean "based on" .

 

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug,

Actually no it would not - ............................................................... my salvation does not depend upon your opinion of me.

Scimi

Hi Scimi
Your reply is pointless to the question at hand “Is the Quran based on the Bible?” In addition your response is exactly what I wish to avoid, a debate on the validity of Jewish and Christian Text. Not only is it against the posting rules of the site it adds to value in the Promotion of Islam.
I am here to gain an understanding of Islam, not to be told how bad other faiths are. The question has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity or whatever school of thought you have regarding other faiths text / scripture.
As told to me in this thread, if it is not in the Quran it is false. I accept this so why do you want to discuss it we agree you do not believe in. It adds no value.

Regards
Doug

 

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimi
Your reply is pointless to the question at hand “Is the Quran based on the Bible?”

Hi Doug,

And I asked whether the NT is based on the OT - the irony slipped over your head.

I was hoping you'd see how your OP premise is ironic... seems you cannot entertain that type of logic.

In addition your response is exactly what I wish to avoid, a debate on the validity of Jewish and Christian Text. Not only is it against the posting rules of the site it adds to value in the Promotion of Islam.

That's not against the board rules - fear not - the thread is still going and the mods have read it, I'm sure.

I am here to gain an understanding of Islam, not to be told how bad other faiths are.

That makes two of us then.

The question has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity or whatever school of thought you have regarding other faiths text / scripture.

It has everything to do with it when I ask "is the NT based on the OT teachings?" Paul done away with the sabbath and the circumcision, and allowed the eating of swine - By this standard alone, I'd say it is not based on the OT teachings, would you agree? Consider, the very word Torah - means LAW... and Paul abrogated those, clearly...

...You know Paul was a hired mercenary recruited to hunt down and kill the early followers of Jesus pbuh, and then had a miraculous fall off his horse and saw an apparition in the form of light - in other words, Lucifer the satan - most Christians today are following Paul and not Jesus pbuh.

Paul in my honest opinion is the very same false prophet who minced the words of Jesus pbuh and interpolated his own understanding to deify Jesus pbuh when Jesus himself said "Hear O Israel, the LOrd, God is ONE"... not two, not three, etc.

Paul was turfed out by the Jews of Jerusalem, for blasphemy and it was the Roman Pagans who snuck him out and told him "Go preach to the gentiles"... why? Because the Semitic people of Jerusalem REJECTED Paul. That includes both the Jews and the early followers of Jesus pbuh. Both semitic groups rejected Paul.

Do you know what a red letter bible is? Go get one my friend... you seek truth? Truth is never convenient.

As told to me in this thread, if it is not in the Quran it is false. I accept this so why do you want to discuss it we agree you do not believe in. It adds no value.

I study the comparatives, to find alignments in my eschatological research. For this, I take into consideration the Old Testament/Torah, the NT, and the Qur'an as well as Ahadeeth.

To claim that I do not believe in the previous scriptures is a blanket statement and this is not the first time you've been caught out putting words in the mouths of others they never spoke... I ask - how can you read the any holy scripture in context when you can't even follow the intended points of members in this very thread?

You need to really, step up a little here my friend and do this properly.

Regards
Doug

And to you, the same,

Scimi

 

[greenhill]

Re: What Conversations Are We Not Having as Muslims?

Hi Greenhill
Thank you for your input. . .
..........
You go further to say Islam stands alone with the Quran and the Hadith as its guide. I understand the Hadith is in essence reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet Mohamed. In addition they are evaluated by Muslim clerics as authentic, good or weak.
This by Muslim standards is saying the Quran in itself is also corrupt or rather been corrupted by Saran after Mohamed’s death.
Do you seem my problem, the explanations given do not build a puzzle of confidence.

Regards
Doug

Don't quite understand still.

Saran? Or typo Satan? But that is not the real point.

The point is that the Quran tells to pray and to offer it at various times and in various positions described. It tells us to be humble and rigtheous, forgiving and charitable. And the prophet pbuh demonstrated a way of being. If we want an example, it should be him. And the stories of all the prophets are a special in their own right. It is hard to pick a favourite. Nabi Ibrahim pbuh and his conquest of so many nations..? Daud pbuh? Suleiman pbuh? Musa pbuh and Egypt. Stories if what they do too would be sunnah. But none alive today have any authentic chain of narration going that far back to be sunnah..

So, how we pray and stuff, is demonstrated for the observers to be guided. .

How do you mean corrupt?


eace:

 

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug,............................

And to you, the same,

Scimi

Thanks

Regards
Doug

 

[dwa2day]

If you read the ………………………………… as a community in order to succeed.

Hi Abz2000
What you say makes sense to me. However were I get a bit lost is …….

it's how we interpret Islam that defines us,

I apologies in advance if I sound stupid or over critical here. But common sense says to me there can only be one truth, but if each person has his own interpretation of Islam it could lead to confusion, disruption and or corruptness of what the intention is of the original message. Would it be prudent of me to say there should be some rule of engagement, for example must be in agreement with the Hadeeth and in context of the passage.

, and how Islam interprets us that defines us.

This comment needs a bit more explanation for me to grasp.

Regards
Doug

 

[dwa2day]

Re: What Conversations Are We Not Having as Muslims?

Don't quite understand still. ……………..ar back to be sunnah..

Hi Greenhill
Yes and how truth that it is the stories that give body and life to teaching. However also and example of how us human embmeish a stories just to make it sound good. Thus confirming the point of how texts can be changed or corrupted.
To your question

How do you mean corrupt?

Please know what I write is done in full respect your faith requires and merely to gain understanding of Islam.
You have the Hadeeth which is second only to the Quran. I understand this text to be what I would call a concordance or study guide of the sayings of Muhammad. We know the Quran was originally committed to memory but at a point was compiled by respected elders from various sources. Some source were many about certain things while other were less.
Yes I know the above not accurate, and requires a lot more, however it is the overhaul principle at stake not the actual methodology. So by example and again this is fact as it is an example so please do not censure my error. Example 20 sources confirm Muhammad said “ABC” This was determined to be an authentic saying of Muhammad. In application my understanding of reading the Hadeeth, my example would ask the question "DEF'. Thus reading the Hadeeth one may find truth in that it gives an explanation and refers you to supporting Sunna’s saying "XYZ".
Source material with only 10 confirmation were classed as “Good” and source material with less than three were classed as “Weak” (again just principle here) Thus by Islamic standards we have authentic saying of Muhammad – Good ones that possible were said and weak one we are unsure of.
Thus my comment that by Islamic standards the Quran is (I re-phrase not to offend) not a 100% authentic.

Regards
Doug

 

[greenhill]

Kill the infidel... maybe I will come to that later... it has been explained countless times in this forum already it is everytime misquoted. But more to what you were saying. It might even be encapsulated in this nice little story which I would often use as my own guide when things become complicated... (and the story is in my own words)

Once the prophet spoke and told everyone, that in their lifetime, if able, to perform the hajj. To which someone asked, is that every year O prophet? ... the prophet did not answer so he repeated the question until the third time. Then the holy prophet answered, with a pre cursor of pointing out to the questioner that people like him are the cause of the split in the ummah. He asks, what if he had said "yes". How it then becomes difficult. Why can't people just take the instruction as is.

So the ummah has been infiltrated, too many questions asked and too many fatwas come out as a result of questions raised when there is really no need.

You see, I believe Satan knows the Quran inside and out. He tries to bend it if we do not ourselves understand it, we will be manipulated.

But islam from the begining is about Allah and our intentions. Then execution with honesty and patience and humility. Charitable and upright. Protect the weak.

If you were to see the growth of the deen throughout the times, you would see that quite a lot of the passages in the Quran were directed towards the Jews. It was a direct 'hit' confirming it to them. Their riddles and ploys exposed. It was the truth they did not want to hear. Just like what they tried with Jesus pbuh. You would notice (I did) that Jesus was kind and gentle with the public but ruthless and not minced his words when it came to the Jews. He called them all kinds of things.. lol..

And they plotted to have Jesus killed and his message distorted. Having succeeded they tried with the the final message.

If it cannot be distorted from within then perhaps Satan distorts it from the outside making the world reluctant to even touch the Book... build up a hugely negative perception of the Book... that he does not really need to do something that by now would be a lot harder..


Actually I know the subject is intriguing to you but I am not fully understanding your question.


eace:

 

[dwa2day]

Wow What is it with this site, or did I miss the lesson on how to ignore content and take everything out of context. I specifically ask …

……. Please know what I write is done in full respect your faith requires and merely to gain understanding of Islam. ………Yes I know the above not accurate, and requires a lot more, however it is the overhaul principle at stake not the actual methodology. So by example and again this is made up by me not fact as an example so please do not censure my error.

What do you do ….. zone in on the example, censure it am miss the content written as your responces is

Kill the infidel... maybe I will come to that later... it has been explained countless……………………….

I have thus in order to avoid above edited the post to read “ABC”, “DEF” and “XYZ” and invite to re read the post and you respond accordingly if you feel it nessary.

Regards
Doug

 

[greenhill]

I appreciate your trying to be clear..

What I read is that you put the Quran side by side with the hadeeth and you go in to explain how it gets rated into being good or weak .. and from there go back to the Quran saying it is not 100% authentic...

If you are refering to the authenticity of the Quran it is something else, not how the hadeeths are compiled and authenticated.

The Quran was compiled and arranged in order during the lifetime of the prophet. It was only standardised later.


Very different form the collection of the hadeeths..


eace:

 

[dwa2day]

I appreciate your trying to be clear..

What I read is that you put the Quran side by side with the hadeeth and you go in to explain how it gets rated into being good or weak .. and from there go back to the Quran saying it is not 100% authentic...

If you are refering to the authenticity of the Quran it is something else, not how the hadeeths are compiled and authenticated.

The Quran was compiled and arranged in order during the lifetime of the prophet. It was only standardised later.


Very different form the collection of the hadeeths..


eace:

Hi Greenhill.
No that’s not quite correct. I am saying in my understanding of Islam the Quran is supreme, un-corrupted as per the revelation received by Muhammad from Allah and thus is the number one text of the Islamic faith. The Hadeeth is second only to the Quran and is used as a guide to understanding the Quran. What I would call a study guide or concordance.
The Hadeeth however rates the Quran’s verses as Authentic, Good or Weak. Therefore by implication the Quran is not a 100% Authentic as claimed by the Islamic faith.

Regards
Doug

 

[greenhill]

Aaah... I see...

No, that is not correct. . . Or at least, this is the first time I am hearing anyone saying that hadeeth rates the Quran verses.

No. It is the hadeeth that is rated by the 'ulama'.

I hope that clears up the matter. (No wonder I was so confused)


eace:

Hope that

 

[dwa2day]

Aaah... I see...

No, that is not correct. . . Or at least, this is the first time I am hearing anyone saying that hadeeth rates the Quran verses.

No. It is the hadeeth that is rated by the 'ulama'.

I hope that clears up the matter. (No wonder I was so confused)


eace:

Hope that

Oh ok, Please explain to me what is the Hadeeth based on and why is it rated. This is going to sound stupid but who or what is the 'ulama'.

Regards

 

[ardianto]

Oh ok, Please explain to me what is the Hadeeth based on and why is it rated. This is going to sound stupid but who or what is the 'ulama'.

Regards

Greetings Doug.

Hadith is testimony/narrative of people around prophet Muhammad (saw) about what prophet Muhammad (saw) said and did. In Example "When prophet Muhammad visited ..... he said like this, .. he did like that, ....". There is rate for hadith such as sahih (authentic), hasan (not so authentic), dhaif (weak), which based on few factors like reputation of people in chain of narration, etc.

While Ulama means "people who are mastering Islamic knowledge". The singular of Ulama is Aleem. It's based on the word "Ilm (knowledge).

Regards
Ardianto

 

[dwa2day]

Greetings Doug.

Hadith is testimony................................ based on the word "Ilm (knowledge).

Regards
Ardianto

Hi Ardianto
Ok that fair enough, do I understand then the testimony/narrative in the Hadeeth about what prophet Muhammad said and did is not related to the writings /sayings in the Quran.
Also in understand the (pbuh) what does (saw) stand for?
Regards
Doug