is it just me?

[WarriorforMarie]

No Prophet came into this world and said that we have to build a "state"

This is actually true. It would have to be since the modern state system (with centralization of power, end of feudalism, and the development of the contemporary, sophisticate bureacracy) did not come into existence until the Thirty Years War in Europe and the Peach of Westphalia.

As for the rest of what you wrote. Sure. If Jesus were to actually appear and all of these other supernatural events occurred then perhaps the state will cease to existence. However, it seems highly unlikely. In my own country of the United States there are people who like to proclaim that Jesus is coming back and will soon return. They care nothing for the condition of the state and think that praying and worshiping God is the only thing that needs to be done. They should not be listened to. The United State's top priority should be to improve its infastructure, reogranize its finances, and eventually begin paying down its debt. If all we do is waste our time praying and waiting for Jesus to return we will find ourselves thirty years from now ridiculously behind China.

 

[M.I.A.]

4. Well, these men may or may not be prophets. I do not know. But they certainly are not useful as guides for how to achieve 10% GDP growth

...that is very ironic.

the feeding of people and establishing of nations.


i cant fault it.

unless you are on the wrong side of it.


unfortunately no welfare system at present, preserves morality and moral within the foundations of the system.


which in itself, is disturbing.

because the modern prophets dont need teaching.



and to even to imply a grand conspiracy is beyond me.



...goes against the whole "god" thing.


i was watching a documentary on nissan the other day, very apt.

 

[Signor]

Sister h-n

It seems you are too quick to jump the gun without any reason.I am wondering for how long you have been studying Signs of End of Times and how much you know so far about this subject(this is how much its plainly obvious).All I've said is based on the knowledge which I got from Authentic Hadith collection and Salafs(pious predecessors) like Ibn Kathir etc and I've no problem backing my statement.Just to clear this out,My post compromises of two things:First statement lies on my knowledge from sources I stated before,Secondly,The point which I tried to make is The knowledge about the final hour resides with Allah only.Yes,its His Prophet(PBUH) who prophecies all those things and He(SWT) created this scheme of things But this doesn't had any effect on his ability to destroy all with just "kun". To cut it short He(SWT) is not bound nor handcuffed,despite of all those predictions which Muslims believed to be true.

Regards

 

[h-n]

This is actually true. It would have to be since the modern state system (with centralization of power, end of feudalism, and the development of the contemporary, sophisticate bureacracy) did not come into existence until the Thirty Years War in Europe and the Peach of Westphalia.

As for the rest of what you wrote. Sure. If Jesus were to actually appear and all of these other supernatural events occurred then perhaps the state will cease to existence. However, it seems highly unlikely. In my own country of the United States there are people who like to proclaim that Jesus is coming back and will soon return. They care nothing for the condition of the state and think that praying and worshiping God is the only thing that needs to be done. They should not be listened to. The United State's top priority should be to improve its infastructure, reogranize its finances, and eventually begin paying down its debt. If all we do is waste our time praying and waiting for Jesus to return we will find ourselves thirty years from now ridiculously behind China.

It "wouldn't have to be, if you actually read all the posts, King David and Solomon peace be upon him did reign -but that was at a time when people accepted law from the one God. It is not a goal to build a state, as the goal is for people is to be Muslims-when AFTER people repent, they desire to be in a Muslim state.

With your other points it is on a clear search under death penalty rejected UK;-

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions?state=rejected

Also what you are saying is completely wrong and just shows that you have come here with a biased view -which isn't going to help when learning about different ways that people do things as your already saying that your right, even stating that the religious people don't do anything-WHEN they have contributed, ie we work, we care for our parents, our children, we help other people, we even have pastimes, but as I am on an Islamic forum here to talk about Islam, you can appreciate that your not going to see the rest of my life, one of the worst things I see is IDLE talk, and I do not wish to waste people's time as they only have a short time in this world, so when I say I'm going to talk about Islam, I will, if I'm going to talk about cooking, health etc I will.

Even I would never say that the Christians have not contributed to the countries, even we don't say that the wrongdoers at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him never cared about anyone, of course they did but only for the life of this world, the goal is to be appreciated rather then looking to appreciate the one God, even the Christians talk about being on the receiving end of love instead of God being the centre, which is why we even get some fractions like the Jehovah's witness say that there will be many a number who will be ruling with the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him over earth (which of course in Islam is not true as the centre of attention is the one God, that no angel fails to look at).

There is no doubt that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will return, but that will be after the countries have collapsed as they won't even be able to survive the droughts and the test of the Dajjal anyway even if they lasted a bit longer. It is a serious issue, which is why people like me don't accept anyone's version of events ie just peaceful living in this world-were they actually telling people its about living here (when its not). If they can't heed the signs of the Day of Judgement after all that's happened in this world, then they aren't going to take it seriously until it happens, and people actually wonder why the people at the time of Pharoah ignored the plagues of Egypt (people are really doing no different-I mean how worse does this world have to get for them to take it seriously). This is what this thread is more about too. So as you can appreciate people like to talk about this has its serious for them- so its completely wrong of you to talk about Islamic states again and again.

I again disagree and you have proven you could not understand a basic example that I have provided for you of the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him over and over again. That was an excellent example of why we don't accept democracy (instead you take it as I'm telling you to believe in the Prophet's return only), even though I talked about democracy and even on another thread. So you have SHOWN that your not a good student. In Islam we not only give to charity, we worship Allah, but we live our whole lives in Islam, even people using up their life savings to go to Mecca. Allah does not have democracy, he is God, who sustains everything, neither do we have democracy with the Prophets, or the companions of the Prophet-so that was the example that I have given you and why as Muslims we don't have a problem accepting leadership without question of religious people. As the west try and think it is a source of embarrassment and something to try and use against us by saying that we don't treat people well-when this is not the case.

People used to carve their homes out of the mountains and had the same arrogance that you proclaim that nothing will happen, Allah destroyed the people of Aad and Thamud. Your politicians cannot create the food and water that you take. They think with their technology that they were different, more sophisticated then people in the past when they have SHOWN time and time again that they are responding the same way as them ie rejecting the words of the Prophets, accepting homosexuality, ignoring the warnings of the Day of Judgement. It isn't correct to make it a life's work to make profit, what and be like banks -were they never say they have enough profit (and be content as the religious people), but they say that they need to make more and more profit beating the previous years', you talk about the US, people don't want to all accept the one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell, accept homosexuality, accept having sexual relationships outside of marriage, bomb other countries killing so many people, and you honestly think you have a chance?? It is no different to a wife who poisons her husband and just planning to live happily ever after-its actually incredulous that people can be that inconsiderate, ungrateful. What planet are you on?? Who ever taught you that you can disregard the evil and that your going to continue regardless as people who even murder their parents??

You reject the truth, that is what we actually accept in Islam. This is why the one God sent the Prophets and even they told people to repent to the one God on the first day of their Prophethood-the Prophet Noah peace be upon him wouldn't be telling them to worship the one God if they couldn't recognise the truth, the Prophets didn't set up classrooms to get the people who are even illiterate to make them have lectures to get them to "see" the truth. They reject the truth, it is rather the media of today which is making it acceptable for people to say they don't recognise, just as they are trying to do with homosexuality-make it acceptable for people.

You are NOT better then the Prophet Moses peace be upon him that we are going to listen to you over him,

You are NOT better then the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him that we are going to listen to you over him,

You are NOT better then the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him that we are going to listen to you over him.

As the above no need to try and say the right thing by saying that you accept religion for people, but don't agree with it yourself, we don't need appeasing, and we don't need the support of non-Muslims, frankly we don't need the support of anyone who is on the path of Hell-fire. Your only showing that if you were there at the time of the Prophet Noah peace be upon him you would have been taken in the flood.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

Concerning the petition. From the main site that you showed me there was this:

"e-petitions are an easy, personal way for you to influence government and Parliament in the UK. You can create an e-petition about anything that the government is responsible for and if it gets at least 100,000 signatures, it will be considered for debate in the House of Commons. You can find more information about how the House of Commons deals with e-petitions on the..http://www.parliament.uk/bbcom."

So a petition must have at least 100,000 signatures (the death penalty petition only had a quarter of that amount) for it to even be considered for debate.

Defore Democracy can be considered to exist we must have measurable variables that can be used to determine if it reaches a minimum procedural threshold. What minimum procedures would you say have to be met for a state to be considered a "democray?"

As for the rest of what you wrote. It isn't that I think that religious people don't do anything. In my country there are many people from many religious who are industrious and beneficial. However, when some individuals try to make education less about science and math and more about Christianity they are sabotaging our country. The students in China receive a proper science education, one not infused with fantasy.

As for whether you want to spend your life waiting for the return of Jesus that is you decision. One thing that is at least a little comforting when I think about the fate of my beloved. I use to worry that she would suffer in a place of suffering as suggested by several religions. However, so far I have not been able to find any evidence of this. It is reassuring to hear stories about how Jesus is coming back (assuming he ever existed) because they help to undermine the idea that these faiths are correct. For the remainder of my life I will see people who will be saying that the end is near, the day of judgment is coming, Jesus is coming back, etc. etc. They will often imply that there are signs indicating that these things are going to happen soon. Years will go by. Then decades and these events will not happen.

 

[h-n]

Concerning the petition. From the main site that you showed me there was this:

"e-petitions are an easy, personal way for you to influence government and Parliament in the UK. You can create an e-petition about anything that the government is responsible for and if it gets at least 100,000 signatures, it will be considered for debate in the House of Commons. You can find more information about how the House of Commons deals with e-petitions on the..."

So a petition must have at least 100,000 signatures (the death penalty petition only had a quarter of that amount) for it to even be considered for debate.

Defore Democracy can be considered to exist we must have measurable variables that can be used to determine if it reaches a minimum procedural threshold. What minimum procedures would you say have to be met for a state to be considered a "democray?"

As for the rest of what you wrote. It isn't that I think that religious people don't do anything. In my country there are many people from many religious who are industrious and beneficial. However, when some individuals try to make education less about science and math and more about Christianity they are sabotaging our country. The students in China receive a proper science education, one not infused with fantasy.

As for whether you want to spend your life waiting for the return of Jesus that is you decision. One thing that is at least a little comforting when I think about the fate of my beloved. I use to worry that she would suffer in a place of suffering as suggested by several religions. However, so far I have not been able to find any evidence of this. It is reassuring to hear stories about how Jesus is coming back (assuming he ever existed) because they help to undermine the idea that these faiths are correct. For the remainder of my life I will see people who will be saying that the end is near, the day of judgment is coming, Jesus is coming back, etc. etc. They will often imply that there are signs indicating that these things are going to happen soon. Years will go by. Then decades and these events will not happen.

That was just one of the petitions done via internet and they have kept on readmitting them when they had the full signatures in the past. But the point remains it is very popular and still they won't bring it back.

Democracy is for everyone to have a say in everything ie not voting for politicians to make the decision making for you ie the voting on if they go to war, it no difference to a dictatorship, your just voting for someone to take the decision out of your hands.

I don't believe that religious people have sabotaged efforts for people to gain an education (agree they do influence on how people should live ie the Amish community -and I do agree that people should learn about the world and take advantage of education, but others can argue it is no different to allowing children to just think about film, popstar careers, the influence of growing up in gang related areas -were the influence people to get involved into something that is not productive).

No one is just sitting around waiting for the arrival of the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him (and no matter when he is going to come, just like the Day of Judgement, we need to be aware, Allah allows many people to be born and they have the opportunity of earning their rewards in Paradise -so with Allah's mercy he not only allowed the people of Aad and Thamud to be tested, but we got an excellent opportunity to also earn a reward and be happy about it on the Day of Judgement), and you would need to wait for the Day of Judgement if your accusing people of just doing that. You talk about continuing to think about state building, no one around the world is going to say that I many countries don't good things about them, and God himself has given the US so much, they have many variety of landscape environments and wildlife SO for the US to bomb and kill civilians abroad is a bad thing, its embarrassing after all that they already have. So for many people around the world they think of the US no differently to those who kill for personal gain, women who kill their husbands to take advantage of life insurance policy, a son killing his parents to inherit the property etc-SO to many people the US is no different, even talking about making your country "great" even at a time whilst the US is still killing people! This is bizarre, its your choice to believe that things will continue, whilst your sitting on a sinking ship. Its actually a joke that people like that think they are going to have more and more and more-when hasn't God provided so much already?? People would be in uproar that murderer thinks he can just make a life for himself.

Whilst we worship Allah, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell, we heed the signs of the Day of Judgement, so the difference also is that you think things will continue, but I do not, I support education, and would not go around trying to stop people from doing certain things as Allah himself allows them to do it-as its their tests. I am confident on how I treat others including non-Muslims (which they can vouchsafe), you came on an Islamic website and of course I'm here to talk about it, not lie and not pick and choose ie like some people who are uncomfortable with talking about Hell (that even the Jews say it doesn't exist-when they do agree that the Jews in the past believed in it). Unto you your way and unto me mine, my advice to anyone is to stay away from government conflicts as we are responsible for our own souls on the Day of Judgement, so its important not to be led by others.

Anyway, thanks for your time, I don't always wish to spend lots of time on forums, so whatever you do try and get to the points early on, clarify what you know and why you don't understand such and such as we don't always know how long we are in this world (which is why I asked for you to stay in one thread so people can see what was said and were your at). This is what I always try and avoid and so my posts are to the point.