Is it Permissible to Talk to ones Fiancée over the Telephone?

[Ummu Sufyaan]

jazakiallahu khair...
subhanallah! i wudda thought (islamically) that if a sis had an interest in a bro she wouldve had to do it indirectly

there you go, you learn something new

 

[Re.TiReD]

:wasalamex

BarakAllah feeki. Tbh, before reading that hadeeth I thought it to be the ultimate lack of Haya to present yourself to a bro. Wallahu A'lam

 

[SixTen]

Sure.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He does some research, likes what he finds and gets her wali's contact and goes and proposes.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He becomes good friends with the brother of Sr. Y. He lets him know that he likes his sister, and it goes to the parents and they get married.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He proposes to her (lets her know of his intentions) directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette) and asks for the contacts of her wali, which she gives to him. He contacts the wali and they're married later. If she doesn't, then that means she isn't interested in the proposal.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She proposes to him directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette). (I.e. "I am interested in marrying you, here are the contacts to my wali if you're interested.")

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She thinks he might like her too. She goes to her dad to let him know, they contact the brother and a few months later they're married.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She knows the brother's sister and gets information about him through her. She likes it, and once she knows she has a chance of marrying the brother, she goes to her wali. They get married later.

How would you know you liked her, unless you go to know her through non-halal means? (e.g., talked/met in school and so fourth). I mean, as a stranger, she should not make talk or discussion with you, and be fully covered - how would a brother end up liking her in such a way?

What I mean is I understand what your saying, but I wouldn't deem that completely halal - in that it requires you to get to know the sister (to like her), but that means usually in a non-halal way - Even though the next steps may be halal (contacting wali etc).

It can still be love if Abdullah was seriously in love and couldn't get to be with her. Likewise, it can still be love if he goes to the wali. I'd go so far as to say that it is genuine feelings for the sister that would make the brother go straight to the parents, I mean after all, the father is the wali.

Some scholars have stated, their is no love outside wedlock - and its just lust. How would you reply?

 

[Re.TiReD]

At Br.SiXten's final comment:

Some scholars have stated, their is no love outside wedlock - and its just lust. How would you reply?

I think there's a reason the Prophet (saw) said that when two people love one another they should marry

“There is nothing better for two who love one another than marriage.” Recorded by Ibn Majah.

That will be the meaning understood from it, but a better translation is: "There is nothing for two who love one another like marriage."

And, yes, the meaning is: "nothing better."

In Faidh al-Qadeer (the notes on Jami` as-Sagheer) al-Munaawi said:

“‘It is when a man looks at an ajnabiyah [unrelated woman] and his heart has desire of intercourse, then marrying her will result in increased love.’ This was mentioned by at-Teebi. And more correct than him is the saying of some of the elders that the meaning is that it is the greatest remedy to treat the passion of desire for marital relations. For it is a remedy which there is no equal for by any means. And this is the meaning which is indicated by Allah, Glorious is He, after making women lawful; the free of them, and the slaves of them due to need, by His saying:

(Allah wants to lighten [the burden] for you, and man was created weak.) (An-Nisa’ 4:28)

http://talk.islamicnetwork.com/showthread.php?t=2610

Wallahu A'lam

 

[SixTen]

How would 2 people, love eachother, through halal means? I mean, consider the etiquettes of men and women, strangers.

Also, the 2nd example you gave, showed a man to have lust for a woman (desired intercourse), which goes with what I had stated. Also, you can argue, in the 2nd scenario, the woman should not have attracted a man who is a stranger.

 

[Re.TiReD]

How would 2 people, love eachother, through halal means? I mean, consider the etiquettes of men and women, strangers.

Also, the 2nd example you gave, showed a man to have lust for a woman (desired intercourse), which goes with what I had stated.

Wallahu A'lam. Because I will truthfully say that I dont know.

But yeah, with a non-mahram I'd say that if love was substituted by 'Genuine feelings', liking what you have seen and heard about a person, their character and their dealings with others...Its possible for one's heart to be inclined towards a person in such instances. And the result can most often be marriage but in a halal way.... i.e. going through parents etc

 

[Re.TiReD]

Also, you can argue, in the 2nd scenario, the woman should not have attracted a man who is a stranger.

Hmm, so you'd blame a sis for having such a beautiful character and displaying perfect akhlaaq and showing Ikhlaas whilst acquiring 'Ilm....

You'd blame her if you felt as though you wanted to marry her?

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Also, you can argue, in the 2nd scenario, the woman should not have attracted a man who is a stranger.

the accidental look, perhaps...i mean thats how he would be attracted to her, unintentionally.

 

[SixTen]

Wallahu A'lam. Because I will truthfully say that I dont know.

But yeah, with a non-mahram I'd say that if love was substituted by 'Genuine feelings', liking what you have seen and heard about a person, their character and their dealings with others...Its possible for one's heart to be inclined towards a person in such instances. And the result can most often be marriage but in a halal way.... i.e. going through parents etc

I don't know If I am completely convinced, of another route other than arranged being the only halal. Some try to use the Prophet (saw) examples, but he was a Prophet, and he did dealings differently then we are allowed to on many things - he was on a prophetic mission in the end of the day.

I know of people, who "loved" eachother and got married - but they only "loved" eachother, because of having had an illegal relationship (this could merely be that they meeted, talked, maybe the girl wasn't full covered, the modesty laws were not fully addressed - I mean a guy and a girl, who are strangers, just joking around, having "fun", would be considered an illegal relationship).

One would say, just hearing about someone, would be sort of arranged still - as you did not initiate it.

So, really it was more of a reply to some of the examples I was given by the brother.

the accidental look, perhaps...i mean thats how he would be attracted to her, unintentionally.

I know these things happen, but, you and I know, that isn't the "halal" way, that is, a man not lowering his gaze - or a woman not being covered enough as to not attrat men.

 

[SixTen]

Hmm, so you'd blame a sis for having such a beautiful character and displaying perfect akhlaaq and showing Ikhlaas whilst acquiring 'Ilm....

You'd blame her if you felt as though you wanted to marry her?

As I stated, outside of arranged - one can argue, situation should not arise, where a man, was able to know a stranger, to the extent he wanted sexual relations with them.

 

[maryam87]

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She proposes to him directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette). (I.e. "I am interested in marrying you, here are the contacts to my wali if you're interested.") :thumbs_up

He he funny one I would wonder what they guy would think if a girl proposed to him these days LOL

 

[Re.TiReD]

By what you're saying I think it all boils down to how you translate the word 'arranged'....I recall the brother saying he would not be able to go through with a marriage where you bearly know the person, they're from 'back home' etc etc

Obviously if you have wali in the picture from the start then you may argue that it's arranged.... if it comes down to the interpretation of words then its possible for any of the bro's examples to be halal and 'arranged' with the help of the wali.

It is possible to like somebody without having engaged in haram talk or haram glances....

 

[Re.TiReD]

As I stated, outside of arranged - one can argue, situation should not arise, where a man, was able to know a stranger, to the extent he wanted sexual relations with them.

One can argue it, but one may not always be able to prevent it. Guarantee me that a bro is able to remain in a segregated setting throughout his student/uni and worklife and then maybe I'd be able to see where you're coming from.

 

[SixTen]

One can argue it, but one may not always be able to prevent it. Guarantee me that a bro is able to remain in a segregated setting throughout his student/uni and worklife and then maybe I'd be able to see where you're coming from.

You see, this is irrelevant. My arguement wasn't these things don't happen, I am fully aware of what happens. My arguement was, show me a non-arranged situation, where it was totally halal. Obviously, someone who was not in a completely segreated situation, who ended up marrying someone by liking them due to some glances or talks - would not be totally halal.

The whole discussion was not, "Do people always prevent haram relationships", rather, "Give me another system, other than the arranged, which is 100% halal" which no one has yet to provide me with.

Jazakhallah Khair.

 

[SixTen]

By what you're saying I think it all boils down to how you translate the word 'arranged'....I recall the brother saying he would not be able to go through with a marriage where you bearly know the person, they're from 'back home' etc etc

Obviously if you have wali in the picture from the start then you may argue that it's arranged.... if it comes down to the interpretation of words then its possible for any of the bro's examples to be halal and 'arranged' with the help of the wali.

It is possible to like somebody without having engaged in haram talk or haram glances....[/QUOTE]

How can you like someone, you know nothing about (aka the halal way to strangers). Hence, the arranged being, you find wali's/parents who have sons/daughters who wish to get married, or people who are advertising to get married - and do the arranged halal thing.

I don't agree that, one day, you suddenly like an individual, without knowing him at all - which means, be it either the halal way (wali etc, who can tell you about him/her, give pictures etc) or by haram means (engage in talks/discussion with strange women - strange meaning strangers here)

 

[maryam87]

your making it sound like its haram to speak to the opposite sex ?

 

[SixTen]

your making it sound like its haram to speak to the opposite sex ?

It is, you can't just go around talking to boys/girls who are strangers, unless of dire need or if they are with mahrams.

 

[Re.TiReD]

OK...I see what you want to hear now.

But are you telling me it's haram for somebody to get in touch with my parents after having seen my sis at college and sat in the same lectures as her without having spoken to her...? I think not, I'd commend that person for going straight to the wali rather than engaging in chit-chat and the like.

You're saying that an arranged marriage is the only halal way, then are you teling me the rest are absolutely haram? And to me an arranged marriage is one initiated by the parents/wali...although the dude may have expressed an interest but referred it straight to the parents after that....How is that haram?

If you think him actually being in a situation where he saw the sis is haram then fine, I'd agree and say that the only 100% halal marriage is one where the parents bring the propsal to you.

I don't agree that, one day, you suddenly like an individual, without knowing him at all - which means, be it either the halal way (wali etc, who can tell you about him/her, give pictures etc) or by haram means (engage in talks/discussion with strange women - strange meaning strangers here)

See I think you can, nobody expects for it to be love at first sight but to feel as though this person could potentially be good for you...Is not something strange IMO

 

[maryam87]

It is, you can't just go around talking to boys/girls who are strangers, unless of dire need or if they are with mahrams.

ok i dont go to uni with a mahram with me, so if i need to communicate for a group project or something do i speak in sign language??
confused

 

[SixTen]

OK...I see what you want to hear now.

But are you telling me it's haram for somebody to get in touch with my parents after having seen my sis at college and sat in the same lectures as her without having spoken to her...? I think not, I'd commend that person for going straight to the wali rather than engaging in chit-chat and the like.

You see, in this situation, their has been some haram done already, that is, the freemixing in college.

You're saying that an arranged marriage is the only halal way, then are you teling me the rest are absolutely haram? And to me an arranged marriage is one initiated by the parents/wali...although the dude may have expressed an interest but referred it straight to the parents after that....How is that haram?

Like I said, I have never heard of another system which is 100% halal, maybe they are 90%, 80%, 50%, but never 100%.

If you think him actually being in a situation where he saw the sis is haram then fine, I'd agree and say that the only 100% halal marriage is one where the parents bring the propsal to you.

So we agree.

See I think you can, nobody expects for it to be love at first sight but to feel as though this person could potentially be good for you...Is not something strange IMO

It is, since you won't know if they are potentially good for you, as in a 100% halal situation, you won't know ANYTHING about them.