Is Jesus God?

[Panatella]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

Hi akr4m and nimrod. You both offer very good arguements and evidence to support your respective sides of the debate, but again, none is proof.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God does not exist. I am saying it cannot be proved. I believe God intended it that way. He wanted us to have faith.
To say "the Bible says this" or "the Quran says that" is well and good, and offers convincing evidence, but not proof.
Offer your 'proof' to an athiest and he/she will roll thier eyes. Why? Because the Quran and the Bible are just books to an athiest. You cannot prove that either comes from God.

I know, someone will follow me with a post that gives me carpal tunnel syndrome in my mouse finger from scrolling the full length of it, offering "proof" that either the Bible or the Quran is indeed the word of God. I say don't waste your time. I have read and heard it all before. You cannot post anything I have not already read in the abundant threads on this forum.
And someone will try to "prove" to me that God exists. Well again, don't bother. As they say, "you're preachin' to the choir". I already believe in God. The only one that can "prove" God exists, is God. No man alive today can give proof. You must simply believe.

Quran states Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger
If Quran is from God
Then Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet

To conclude if the Quran is the word of God – then this proves Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet.

So first believe that God exists
2nd Read the Quran

And then you will know Muhammed (pbuh) is a prophet.

I have put in bold the key to what I am saying. There are two inportant problems with this kind of 'proof'. As you have said, you must first believe in God. This requires faith, there is no proof. Next, "IF" the Quran is the word of God. "IF". You can provide me with (don't bother) really convincing evidence, but not proof. Therefore, no proof that Muhammed was a prophet. No proof that Jesus is God. No proof that God exists. We are back at faith.

There are signs of God’s existence (i.e. his creation), but to an atheist these signs are explainable and to a believer these signs point to God – this is when faith comes into it – if God had made everything black and white including his existence then what would be the point of faith.

My point exactly. You agree then that you need faith to view this evidence as proof. Looking at the evidence objectively, imagine if you had no faith for a moment, you can see why they would not see this as proof. Can you not? Of course the point is also, there is no proof that God does not exist.

It could be that the receiving person may be ignorant.

Of course, they use this same statement to explain why you believe what you believe. You can't prove them wrong. But they also can't prove you wrong.

This thread is about proof that Jesus is not God. Impossible to prove. Impossible to disprove. Forget it people, you are wasting your time. Concentrate on faith.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

sO mArY slEpT WiV gOD? :X

Have you not heard of the 'Immaculate Conception' ?

Please refrain from writing like a child please

 

[Umar001]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

So the concept is:

G-d exist, does he want us to follow him? I will assume he does.

Yet he gives the truth seekers no whatsoever help so thatthey can worship him, no proof therefore if they end up worshipin somethin else they cannot be held responsible?

Do you believe in Judgement and heave an hell?

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

So the concept is:

G-d exist, does he want us to follow him? I will assume he does.

Yet he gives the truth seekers no whatsoever help so thatthey can worship him, no proof therefore if they end up worshipin somethin else they cannot be held responsible?

This is my view.

We've been sent Guru Nanak who teaches us to worship God, and no other. We have the word of God with us and that to me proves of his existence.

I do not doubt for a second he does not exist. This whole universe is his creation and if i have doubt's all i have to do is gaze up at the sky and i see the clouds moving, this reminds me that God is true!

What more proof do you seach for?

 

[Umar001]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

This is my view.

We've been sent Guru Nanak who teaches us to worship God, and no other. We have the word of God with us and that to me proves of his existence.

I do not doubt for a second he does not exist. This whole universe is his creation and if i have doubt's all i have to do is gaze up at the sky and i see the clouds moving, this reminds me that God is true!

What more proof do you seach for?

I was merely asking if what i had stated was the concept shared by pantella and if it was how could it work?

 

[vpb]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

the biggest proof for the question "is there God?", is the statement itself "there is no God".

there is an example from one of the greatest islamic scholars Ebu Hanife when he was 9 years old he was a very smart, he had the capacity of a scholar, and one day he met his teacher and his teacher told him that he has seen a dreams with a very tall tree, and a small branch of a tree, and at the bottom of the tree some snakes and the branch felt and killed the snakes. And the teacher then told him that he has to go to a meeting with some people that were gonna ask him some questions about the religion (hard questions). Then something happened (i can't remember exactly) and he could not go , so his student (Ebu Hanife) asked him if he could go since the teacher could not, so the teacher said yes, and then Ebu Hanife said "you know about that dream that you saw, you were the tall tree, i was the branch that felt and killed the snakes". So he went there, and he told them that the teacher couldn't come but they could ask him , so they decided to ask him (since he was very young) just 3 questions.
1. How can we say that there is God when we can't see him?
2.How can you burn Jinns on hell when they are themselves made of smokeless fire?
3.How can God decides for things to happen?

so Ebu Hanife went outside and took a brick (at that time bricks were made of mud) and came back inside and hit very hard in the head the guy that asked the question, so his head started bleeding, and Ebu Hanife asked him "does it hurt??" , he replied "sure it does", then EH asked again "does it really hurt??", he replied "yes yes, it does, very much", then EH said "give me your hurt so I can put it on scale and see it how much it weights" , "as for the first question, do I have to believe if it did hurt you or not cause I cant see it, it's just what you are telling me", "for the 2nd question, man is made from mud, and look what I did to you with a brick made of mud, and as for the 3rd question, if Allah swt would not want me to hit you , we wouldn't let me ". And he left .

the words I was citing in the dialogue are not exactly as I wrote, but I tried to tell the story as best as I could.

and 2 questions for atheists
"what do you think we are living for?" and if we were created not by God, but from something that happened on universe, or whatever atheists believe we were created from, then who created the universe?

 

[Pk_#2]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

Please refrain from writing like a child please

Jezz am still a child...wah ya xpect bro...


And


vpb:
the biggest proof for the question "is there God?", is the statement itself "there is no God".

You lost me on the first line bro :?

 

[akr4m]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

In the name of God most gracious Most merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.



JOE98

It also shows that Jesus believed that God was his father


As does the next passage:

This still doesn’t mean Jesus = Father, this only proves Father is > Jesus
I am sure you are not implying the word father literally are you?

In the following passage, what do you think is meant by the Spirit? Hint: Father, Son and Holy Spirit

And? Are you implying the trinity? Well even though it is a long shot, since the word trinity wasn’t even mentioned in the entire bible, let me ask you a question, tell me how is the trinity consistent with the atonement

Trinity requires like you said – all three Father, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. If one doesn’t exist then it is incomplete
Then how do you explain the atonement – where Jesus apparently died for the sins of mankind?

Even the Quran contains the word Allah, and in other passages the Spirit and also Jesus……are we to assume this means trinity?

The above passages also shows that inspite of being tempted, he refused the temptation.

You are missing the point - the very fact he was being tempted goes against his divinity – because God cannot be tempted.


The point wasn’t about whether to refuse temptation but can Jesus be tempted, and the answer is yes. So what if Jesus refused temptation, I resisted the temptation to eat chocolate the other day.

In order to refuse temptation one has to be tempted in the first place and that was my initial point.


NIMROD

John 20:24-30 (New International Version)

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"


But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

John 20:24-30 (King James Version)

24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

You are trying to say that the disciples believe they saw the Lord i.e. Jesus Christ. But then how is this consistent with the following passages.

“No man hath seen God at any time.”
(John 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.”
(Ex 33:20)
“Whom no man hath seen nor can see”
(1 Tim 6:16)


PANTELLA

Hi akr4m and nimrod. You both offer very good arguements and evidence to support your respective sides of the debate, but again, none is proof.

If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A

Hence if Jesus = God, and Jesus = can be tempted then according to Aristotoles three law of logic God should also = can be tempted. But according to the Bible God cannot be tempted. And thats what i was trying to show in my previous post.

The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God does not exist. I am saying it cannot be proved. I believe God intended it that way. He wanted us to have faith.
To say "the Bible says this" or "the Quran says that" is well and good, and offers convincing evidence, but not proof.
Offer your 'proof' to an athiest and he/she will roll thier eyes. Why? Because the Quran and the Bible are just books to an athiest. You cannot prove that either comes from God.

Then why are you asking for proof whether Jesus claimed divinity? I assumed that you believed in one of the scriptures was from God.

Offering a proof to an atheist about Christ's divinity is stupidity – because an atheist doesn’t even believe in God.

The very fact that one has asked me to prove the divinity of Christ - it is then taken in to consideration that he believes God exist – because one cannot understand the issue of Christ’s divinity without first believing in God.

You are confusing your self with the word proof.
To an atheist it requires two proofs
1st God’s existence
Then the issue of Jesus’s divinity.
These require different proof’s not the same.

Hence I provided proof that Jesus does Not = God - to a person who believes in one of the scriptures – i.e. Quran or Bible.

I have put in bold the key to what I am saying. There are two inportant problems with this kind of 'proof'. As you have said, you must first believe in God. This requires faith, there is no proof. Next, "IF" the Quran is the word of God. "IF". You can provide me with (don't bother) really convincing evidence, but not proof. Therefore, no proof that Muhammed was a prophet. No proof that Jesus is God. No proof that God exists. We are back at faith.

Who said I was proving Mohammad (pbuh) was a prophet - if you read my post carefully I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.

I have already mentioned this before – in order to provide solid proof for the existence of any prophet not just Muhammad, but Abraham, Noah Adam, etc (may peace be upon all), one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).

My point exactly. You agree then that you need faith to view this evidence as proof. Looking at the evidence objectively, imagine if you had no faith for a moment, you can see why they would not see this as proof. Can you not? Of course the point is also, there is no proof that God does not exist.

Well yeah - why are you assuming that I was disagreeing with you?

But I also believe the universe and everything inside it are signs of God. I don’t follow Islam blind. There are many questions that an atheist cannot answer – which leaves me no option but to believe that the source must be God.

Of course, they use this same statement to explain why you believe what you believe. You can't prove them wrong. But they also can't prove you wrong.

This thread is about proof that Jesus is not God. Impossible to prove. Impossible to disprove. Forget it people, you are wasting your time. Concentrate on faith.

Like I said - it is not impossible to prove this if you believe God exists. Because it is only logical to believe that Jesus cannot = God

Why don’t you do the following task make two categories - one with all the attributes of God and the other of Jesus (according to any of the scriptures bible or Quran) and then see if they are consistent. If not it is only logical that both these entities don’t equate – hence Jesus does not = God. I cannot give a simpler proof.

take care

 

[Immunity]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

Wow, Muslims him here know alot about the contents of the Bible!

 

[nimrod]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

Folks, I see that there have been a few repies to what I posted.
I promose, I will try, in the morning, to reply back to the repies.

I have been out all afternoon finishing the outside trim boards on the bay-window I built for the kitchen remodel/addition.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

Wow, Muslims him here know alot about the contents of the Bible!

Immunity, many of us are reverts from Christianity. I do not exactly how many, but we are a noticible number.

 

[duskiness]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

how is the trinity consistent with the atonement [/SIZE]

- mystery. have You read "Life of Pi"??? (it's not a christian book - don't worry ) It this book (sidenote: quite good book) there was sth like this: "if Jesus died, than God will forever have a taste of death in his mouth"

You are missing the point - the very fact he was being tempted goes against his divinity – because God cannot be tempted.

But He was also a human. We can be tempted

I resisted the temptation to eat chocolate the other day.

I try not to resist such a temptations

“No man hath seen God at any time.”
(John 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.”
(Ex 33:20)
“Whom no man hath seen nor can see”
(1 Tim 6:16)

- but there is also this quote with "who have seen me have seen the Father" (from my memory - i don't have time to check Bible)

If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A


The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.[/COLOR][/B]

Logic, You say?? Useless at some point. Whenever You say "God is allpowerfull" it is illogical (the stone paradox). But we say it..

You are confusing your self with the word proof.
To an atheist it requires two proofs
1st God’s existence
Then the issue of Jesus’s divinity.
These require different proof’s not the same.

Atheists are not required any proof. It was already said - one who claims that thers is sth has to prove. And there is no proof for God's existance

Who said I was proving Mohammad (pbuh) was a prophet - if you read my post carefully I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.

one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).

no, You cant prove that. Where is a proof there is a fact. Where there are proofs & facts - there is a knowledge. And we are talking about faith. We both walk by faith only

But I also believe the universe and everything inside it are signs of God. There are many questions that an atheist cannot answer – which leaves me no option but to believe that the source must be God.[/B]

signs- yes, You're right. Proof - no. And also fact that atheists don't know all answers, doesn't make faith in God rational.


You like Bible-quoting, don't You??
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood (...)14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." /John 1/

salaam
n.

 

[Panatella]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A

Well not that I was arguing this point (I am no authority on such things ) , but since you bring it up, I don't think God feels compelled to follow Aristotle's laws. God can do whatever he wants. He can defy logic. God can (not that he would) be a sheep and the sheppard and shear his own wool if he wants. He is God. All things are possible.

The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.[/COLOR][/B]

Or you don't understand the definition of proof. Or possibly have not read my posts.

Like I said - it is not impossible to prove this if you believe God exists.

Proof cannot be built on "belief", it can only be built on undeniable fact. It is only proof if it is an obvious, undeniable fact to all, not just believers.

I read your post. I am familiar with the concept of logic. No need to be cheeky. Logic does not always necessarily equate proof. It can be used sometimes as proof, and sometimes as evidence to build a case when there is insufficent information for proof(as in your case).

Then why are you asking for proof whether Jesus claimed divinity? I assumed that you believed in one of the scriptures was from God.

Actually, I didn't. You must have confused me with another person.

You are confusing your self with the word proof.

No. I have a very good grasp of the meaning of the words 'proof' and 'faith', and also the concept of logic. Logic states that a particular outcome is predictable and inevitable. (of course God doesn't need to follow these rules)

I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.

You mean "evidence".

I have already mentioned this before – in order to provide solid proof for the existence of any prophet not just Muhammad, but Abraham, Noah Adam, etc (may peace be upon all), one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).

[/B]This is like a lawyer in a court of law saying, "the evidence I am about to show you will be proof that the defendant is a murderer, if you will just believe that he is guilty. (Man! I sure wouldn't want to be tried in that court!)
Anyway, As I have said before. I don't need proof to know God exists. And Nobody can prove it. It is futile. Let it go. Work on your faith.

 

[Panatella]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A

Well not that I was arguing this point (I am no authority on such things ) , but since you bring it up, I don't think God feels compelled to follow Aristotle's laws. God can do whatever he wants. He can defy logic. God can (not that he would) be a sheep and the shepard and shear his own wool if he wants. He is God. All things are possible.

The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.[/COLOR][/B]

Or you don't understand the definition of proof. Or possibly have not read my posts.

Like I said - it is not impossible to prove this if you believe God exists.

Proof cannot be built on "belief", it can only be built on undeniable fact. It is only proof if it is an obvious, undeniable fact to all, not just believers.

I read your post. I am familiar with the concept of logic. No need to be cheeky. Logic does not always necessarily equate proof. It can be used sometimes as proof, and sometimes as evidence to build a case when there is insufficent information for proof(as in your case).

Then why are you asking for proof whether Jesus claimed divinity? I assumed that you believed in one of the scriptures was from God.

Actually, I didn't. You must have confused me with another person.

You are confusing your self with the word proof.

No. I have a very good grasp of the meaning of the words 'proof' and 'faith', and also the concept of logic. Logic states that a particular outcome is predictable and inevitable. (of course God doesn't need to follow these rules)

I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.

You mean "evidence".

I have already mentioned this before – in order to provide solid proof for the existence of any prophet not just Muhammad, but Abraham, Noah Adam, etc (may peace be upon all), one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).

[/B]This is like a lawyer in a court of law saying, "the evidence I am about to show you will be proof that the defendant is a murderer, if you will just believe that he is guilty. (Man! I sure wouldn't want to be tried in that court!)
Anyway, As I have said before. I don't need proof to know God exists. And Nobody can prove it. It is futile. Let it go. Work on your faith.

 

[nimrod]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

I always thought it was A squared plus B squared = C squared

Then you knew you had a 90 degree angle.

But what do I know?

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[akr4m]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

In the name of God most gracious most merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.



Greetings all

DUSKINESS

But He was also a human. We can be tempted

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?"

but there is also this quote with "who have seen me have seen the Father" (from my memory - i don't have time to check Bible)

This statement still does not support Jesus = God – it is read out of context.
But just say I agree with you – the issue doesn’t rest here. It just raises another contradictory passage in the bible - because then in some passages God him self tells us no man can see him at any time – and in another passage - God can be seen – hence there is a contradictory statement.

Logic, You say?? Useless at some point. Whenever You say "God is allpowerfull" it is illogical (the stone paradox). But we say it..

I think there is an article in this forum which talks about the stone paradox, which may answer a few things about this issue.

You like Bible-quoting, don't You??
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood (...)14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." /John 1/

I’ve answered this before within this forum don’t know which thread though, anyways I’ll give it another go

The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form Hotheos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form Tontheos, which means ‘a god’. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Therefore, if the Word was a ‘god’ in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one.

However, in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4, “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.” Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1, “And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

Hence if we where to translate the passage to support you argument it would be:
“In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
Hence Word = God himself

Then this would explain
“In beginning was the God (Word), and the God (Word) was with God……..”
Hence - God was with God = 2 Gods

But if we translate the passage in the appropriate manner i.e. Power = god:
“In beginning was the Power (Word), and the Power (Word) was with God…..”
It makes sense.

Therefore I would have to say this passage does not support Jesus = God.

Pantella

Well not that I was arguing this point (I am no authority on such things ) , but since you bring it up, I don't think God feels compelled to follow Aristotle's laws. God can do whatever he wants. He can defy logic. God can (not that he would) be a sheep and the shepard and shear his own wool if he wants. He is God. All things are possible

Sure God is not bound by logic - but that is not the point, the point is not what he can and cannot do - but would he?

The statement I had made in favour of Christ not = God were based on the bible passages – if this is his revelation - and a revelation is a means of communication with man – then why would he communicate with us illogically – In what way does this help us to understand his revelation, especially when we are bound by logic? How is that any good to man?

Why would God tell us to accept the following two contradictory statements?
1)he cannot be tempted and 2) can be tempted by satan – (that’s if you believe Jesus = God).
A contradictory statement is false - why is then God telling us to accept falsehood as truth? Then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth?


God would not contradict himself. Neither God nor his revelation would be contradictory. Otherwise, God would be a liar and that is not possible (Num. 23:19).

And if he does lie - then how does one trust him? – How do we know we will be guaranteed eternal paradise?

To sum up
If one believes Jesus = God - then he aught to believe:
God = can be tempted
God = cannot be tempted
Two contradictory statements hence
God = a liar.
and according to their scripture (the bible)

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?"

I read your post. I am familiar with the concept of logic. No need to be cheeky

My apologies for being cheeky, that is not the way a Muslim should discuss matters. Inform me if I do that again.
take care

 

[Joe98]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

To akr4m:

Christians have a belief. You can attempt to disprove it as much as you want. It will not change their belief.

Here is an example. Muslims believe God spoke to Muhammed (pbuh). I say God did not. Does this change your belief?

 

[Umar001]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

To akr4m:

Christians have a belief. You can attempt to disprove it as much as you want. It will not change their belief.

Here is an example. Muslims believe God spoke to Muhammed (pbuh). I say God did not. Does this change your belief?

Have you heard of the term 'convert'?

Anyhow with the rest of the topic Im not gonna get involved cos it seems to have gone way too deep for me to try come into it now. lol peace

 

[akr4m]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful



First of all - please forgive me if i have heart anyone in anyway - that was not my intention - i was just doing my part by providing my evidence to support my case.

Christians have a belief. You can attempt to disprove it as much as you want. It will not change their belief.

Will all due respect then why are you here in this forum? I assumed all non - muslims where here to learn about Islam - and since this is a comparative religion section i thought we were discussing these issues.

And yes there are those who have "reverted" to Islam, despite their christian belief

Here is an example. Muslims believe God spoke to Muhammed (pbuh). I say God did not. Does this change your belief?

I am afraid it does not change my belief because you havent provided any evidence to support your case.

 

[duskiness]

Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

I think there is an article in this forum which talks about the stone paradox, which may answer a few things about this issue.

- thx. i'll look for it

I’ve answered this before within this forum don’t know which thread though, anyways I’ll give it another go

- sorry, i know it can be bornig

The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form Hotheos, meaning ‘The God’.

- "ho Theos" i think....

However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form Tontheos, which means ‘a god’. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

- yup, You can translate it like this

However, in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ is used metaphorically to indicate power. Noun "Thoes" with or without article means: a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4, “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.” Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1, “And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

- all correct

Then this would explain
“In beginning was the God (Word), and the God (Word) was with God……..”
Hence - God was with God = 2 Gods

+1 = Trinity (

But if we translate the passage in the appropriate manner i.e. Power = god:
“In beginning was the Power (Word), and the Power (Word) was with God…..”
It makes sense.

No, You are wrong here: first You want to translate "theos" with "power", than "logos" with "power". Using one noun to translate 2 noun in 1 sentance is a bad idea...
And in the end i trust that people who are translating bible know their job. Because they probobly know greek better than any of us here...

The statement I had made in favour of Christ not = God were based on the bible passages – if this is his revelation - and a revelation is a means of communication with man – then why would he communicate with us illogically – In what way does this help us to understand his revelation, especially when we are bound by logic? How is that any good to man?

Why would God tell us to accept the following two contradictory statements?
1)he cannot be tempted and 2) can be tempted by satan – (that’s if you believe Jesus = God).
A contradictory statement is false - why is then God telling us to accept falsehood as truth? Then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth?

- about bible, revelatino, mistakes, contradiction there is other thread, i don't want to repeat myself here..

God would not contradict himself. Neither God nor his revelation would be contradictory. Otherwise, God would be a liar and that is not possible (Num. 23:19).

I never understand why there can't be any contradiction in revelation???

then how does one trust him? – How do we know we will be guaranteed eternal paradise?

We are not guarateed anything...

And i DO know that what i believe is "a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles" - or in modern translation: "a stumbling block to Muslims and foolishness to atheistis" (1cor 1:23)
n.