Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

The promotion of Jesus as God has been an unnecessary barrier keeping Christians and Muslims apart. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. However, there are a group of Christians, called Trinitarians, who believe otherwise. Quite a few threads in this forum degenerate into arguments about the Trinity. This thread is for anyone, especially Trinitarians, to provide any Biblical evidence that shows that Jesus is God, so that we can discuss it honestly in order to learn the Truth.

Those Muslims who believe that Christians and Muslims are not brothers because they believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, are welcome to present their evidence here also.

Who will be first.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

Luke 19
37When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38"Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Luke 5
20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

22Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 24But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 25Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. 26Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."

John 10
30[Jesus said:] "I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Matthew 26
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.

Luke 22
66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ," they said, "tell us."
Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

71Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."

One does not have to explicitly state "I am God" to be making a claim to be God. The way that Jesus used the phrase "Son of God" was a claim to diety. This was clearly understood that way by the Jews who used that as sufficient reason with one another to have Jesus put to death. Their charge against him would have been blasphemy. Of course, the Romans could care less about that, so with Pilate they charged Jesus with sedition against the state. That Jesus ascribed to himself diety is so clear that, even today, Jews who read the Gospel label Jesus with the charge of blasphemy.

 

[Follower]

Sometimes actions speak louder then words - There are times Jesus is worshipped by His follwers and He doesn't tell them to stop.

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1998-06/26072.htmlhttp://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1998-06/26072.html

Was Jesus Worshipped?


Matt 4:9-10 - Satan asked to be worshipped by Jesus. Jesus reply was that
Yahweh alone is to be worshipped. The word used is PROSKUNEW. This means
"to worship". Within the Semantic range it does include "to give
obeisance", "to pay homage".


Matthew's gospel identifies Jesus as "Immanuel, God with us" (Matt 1:23),
then uses the word PROSKUNEW ten times in respect to Jesus and once in the
"kingdom of heaven" parable of the unforgiving slave when the slave was
before his king (Matt 18:26).

Within these ten uses directed towards Jesus, there are seven which are
probably best to be translated "to give obeisance" or "homage" (Matt. 2:2,
8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20). However, the other three seem to be more
than this.

Matt. 14:33 comes immediately after the disciples witnessed Jesus walking
on the water. He tells them to take heart. He identifies himself arguably
by using the name of Yahweh, EGO EIMI (14:27). After Peter's watery attempt
to walk on the water, Jesus entered the boat then the wind ceased. It was
then that the disciples PROSKUNEW - ed Jesus.

Matt. 28:9 is just after the resurrection, when Mary and Mary meet the
Risen Lord. The text tells us that they came and took hold of his feet and
they PROSKUNEW - ed him. Here, PROSKUNEW means more than just "bowed in
respect", for if they had hold of his feet they were already on their
knees. PROSKUNEW here was something done after they were in a bowed
position before Jesus.

The third one from Matthew is 28:17. Here PROSKUNEW must be more than just
an action, because those who PROSKUNEW -ed the Risen Lord was contrasted
with those who doubted. Then Jesus declares the authority that has been
given to him. He commands the disciples to make disciples of the whole
world, in the authority / name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He
(Jesus) commands that they teach the disciples everything that he has
taught them. Matthew ends the story of Immanuel (God with us) with the
assurance that he, Jesus, will be with his disciples till the end of the
age.

The New World Translation translates PROSKUNEW directed towards God as
"worship". Improper PROSKUNEW towards Satan is also translated as
"worship". PROSKUNEW directed to Jesus or other human being is translated
by "to do obeisance", both in the gospel of Matthew and the other uses in
the NT. The Oxford dictionary defines "obeisance" as "1. a bow, curtesy, or
other respectful or submissive gesture, 2. Homage, submission, deference."

On face value this seems fair especially when it comes to Peter in Acts
10.25. But Peter's reaction seems to suggest more than just obeisance. His
objection against being PROSKUNEW - ed by Cornelius is that he is "only a
mortal". So here, just as in at least the three other examples in Matthew,
PROSKUNEW should be understood as "worship". For Peter, who has prime place
amongst the apostles, would not have reacted this way if they were simply
honouring him, but here they clearly were doing more than just an act of
obeisance.

Matthew's use of PROSKUNEW would seem to be at least provocative. There
were other word he could have used if he did not wish to show that Jesus
was worshipped. He could have used the word for honour (Matt 13.57), to bow
down (Matt 27:29), people could have come and kneeled before him (eg. Acts
9.40) or they could have bowed (Rom 11:10, literally "to bend their
backs"). But Matthew, who arguably was originally writing to Jewish people,
chose to use PROSKUNEW which Jesus himself said was only to be directed
towards Yahweh.

Finally, when the end times is seen in a vision by the author of
Revelation, the elders fall down and PROSKUNEW the One Upon the Throne AND
the Lamb. When John falls down before an angel and PROSKUNEW the angel, he
was immediately stopped because the angel is only a fellow servant of
John's (Rev 19:10; 22:8). Also in Revelation, it was seen as an abhorrent
thing when Demons or Satan was the object of PROSKUNEW (Rev 9:20; 13:4;
19:20).

Therefore, the Bible shows us that:

Humans are not to be the object of PROSKUNEW;
Angels are not to be the object of PROSKUNEW;
Demon or Satan are not to be the object of PROSKUNEW;
Jesus was the object of PROSKUNEW; and
God was the object of PROSKUNEW

Therefore is it right that we PROSKUNEW, that is worship Jesus as the Risen
Lord and Saviour. If the Jehovah's Witness recognise Jesus as "a god", then
the Biblical claims concerning Jesus needs to be rethought.

 

[Walter]

The first evidence - Luke 19:37-40

Hi Grace Seeker:

I should have stated one at a time. However, let me address them one at a time.

The first evidence presented is Luke 19:37-40.

37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, 38 saying: “‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the LORD!’ Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” 39 And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” 40 But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:37-40)​

The principal evidence is the part of Luke 19:37 which states: “the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice…” This can be interpreted to mean that the people were praising God by referring to Jesus, or they were praising Jesus as God.

In order to help us arrive at a reasonable interpretation, let us examine how Luke presents a similar passage about praising God. When Jesus raised the widow of Nain’s son, the people’s response was:

Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region. (Luke 7:16–17)​

Given that the people identified Jesus as “a great Prophet”, then a reasonable interpretation is that God is described as visiting His people through His representative. This is interpretation is supported by Luke’s writings in the Acts where he states:

7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. … 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. (Acts 15:7, 13, 14)​

So God is described as visiting the gentiles, not directly, but through His representative, Peter, and Peter was not God. Therefore, God visiting His people through His representative, Jesus, is a reasonable interpretation.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

The second evidence - Luke 5:22-26.

The second evidence presented is Luke 5:22-26.

20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 25 Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!” (Luke 5:22-26)​

There are two issues here. The first issue is the Pharisees’ assumption that only God can forgive sins. The second issue is the people glorifying God, and the assumption that they were referring to Jesus.

We have already dealt with the second issue in the last post, where a reasonable interpretation is that they were actually glorifying God and not Jesus.

In seeing to verify the assumption that only God can forgive sins, we see that Jesus told His disciples that they could also forgive sins.

If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (John 20:23)​

Therefore, since the disciples were not gods, but they were taught that they could forgive sins, then the assumption that God alone can forgive sins has not been verified.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

The third evidence is John 10:30-33

The third evidence is John 10:30-33

30 I and My Father are one.” 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” (John 10:30-33)​

The Jews interpreted Jesus’ statement “I and my Father are one” to mean that Jesus was making Himself God. However, Jesus appeared to correct them by stating “I said, I am the Son of God” in John 10:36b.

The assumption made is that Jesus being one with the Father means that Jesus is God. In seeking to verify this assumption, we note Jesus’ prayer for future believers.

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (John 17:20–23)​

So Jesus prays that all believers may be one with the Father, just as He and the Father are one. The original Greek word used for one (hĕis) in Jesus’ statement “I and the Father are one [hĕis]”, is the same word used when Jesus prayed that His disciples may be “one [hĕis] in us”. Since believers are not meant to become gods through becoming one with the Father, then Jesus being one with the Father is not sufficient evidence that Jesus is God.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

The 4th & 5th evidence: Mathew 26:62-66 & Luke 22:66-71

The fourth evidence is Mathew 26:62-66

62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?” They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.” (Mathew 26:62-66)​

Here, Jesus confirms that He is the Son of God, which we both agree. Jesus also confirms that He will return “at the right hand of the Power”. The question that must be asked is: Who is this Power? If He is God, then Jesus and God are described as two separate entities. If it is God the Father, then we have two separate beings returning at the same time.

The fifth evidence provided comes from Luke 22:66-71

66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ," they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." 71Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."​

Again, there is no dispute that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He will return with “the Mighty God”. Please note that Jesus and God are described as two separate and distinct entities.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Dear Follower:

If the Jehovah's Witness recognise Jesus as "a god", then
the Biblical claims concerning Jesus needs to be rethought.

Why are you and Grace Seeker so obsessed with these Jehovah Witnesses? Are there Jehovah Witnesses plaguing this forum? I am unfamiliar with their teachings, and I have not read their bible. I suggest that you start a thread to discuss the Jehovah Witness' teachings so that we can all be enlightened.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[malayloveislam]

Peace everyone,

Excuse me for my curiosity Greenville, you seem like a protestant but your view represent those of ancient Christianity, well according to my view and my historical reading of Quranic Interpretation. What is your sect in Christianity? And is it considered as Christianity too? Thanks. A very nice thread, hope everyone enjoy discussing.

 

[glo]

In addition to what already has been said, the times when Jesus is referred to as God by others and does not deny it, are to me probably the most obvious situations.

Here are a couple:

They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:70)

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:23)

For those of us who believe Jesus to have been a devout monotheist, it is unthinkable that he would let such statements stand (if they weren't true).
What would any good monotheist - who believes that there is only one God who is above all else - do in such a situation, if not strongly deny the claims??

Jesus doesn't deny the claims people make about his divinity ...
Why not?
Is he deluded?
Is he a deceiver?
Is he a bad monotheist?
Or is he really God?

Personally I do not believe the first three statements (I guess most people in this forum don't) - so I conclude for myself that the fourth statement must be true ...

Peace

 

[doorster]

^^ (according to my look-ups) these translations are decidedly dodgy

 

[Imam]

What would any good monotheist - who believes that there is only one God who is above all else - do in such a situation, if not strongly deny the claims??

Jesus doesn't deny the claims people make about his divinity ...
Why not?
Is he deluded?
Is he a deceiver?
Is he a bad monotheist?
Or is he really God?


Peace

Greetings,

there is another alternative for John 20:28 I highlighted here
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...y-disciples-worshipping-jesus.html#post992271

accepting the text the way it is would create a serious problem been discussed in that thread.

Note: I don't criticize the text for the goal of refuting the trinity proof text, as even if the serious problem accompanied with verse (my lord and my god) is absent, still the problem with the Trtinity exist...... as I showed before the basic points a muslim should be aware of before approaching the matter of the Trinity

here
http://www.islamicboard.com/1125772-post25.html

and here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...rmony-between-bible-quran-13.html#post1135486


I hope that Muslims understand well such issue ......Muslims by no mean are supposed to refute the Trinity so called proof text in order to harmonize them with the Anti-Trinity proof text (As the case of our friend Grenville and what is doing right now in the thread)... HE as a believer that the New Testament from cover to cover to be the truly inspired,inerrant word of God , have to harmonize the contradictory proof text, while we muslims should consider 2 basic points:

1- The statue of the New Testament compared with the Quran in the issue of inspiration and inerrancy.

2- The consistency of the so called trinity proof text(check the post I already linked for details).

glo

as you already mentioned that you consider John 20:28 to be the most obvious ,I invite you to read the thread I already linked and let me know if you agree,disagree with me.......
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...y-disciples-worshipping-jesus.html#post992271

Sometimes actions speak louder then words

yes ... and some of the actions of Jesus in the NT not only speaks loud of him being not God but also an imperfect beacon...

peace

 

[Follower]

Grenville was it me that said that? If the Jehovah's Witness recognise Jesus as "a god", then the Biblical claims concerning Jesus needs to be rethought.

Either way there is One True GOD, period. Not One true GOD and a lesser god his son.

It is obvious from the Gospel that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 1 unit of being with seperate ways of touching/reaching mankind.

 

[Follower]

Imam - "Muslims by no mean are supposed to refute the Trinity" Well for one thing the Quran never says the word Trinity it just says 3.

Which by the way I agree we should never say that GOD is 3, but 1. I know of no Christians that would say GOD is 1 of 3!!

Imam - How does the Word of GOD become corrupt if the Word of GOD can not be corrupted?

Link to John 20:28 in Aramaic:
http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/AramaicNTtools/Pe****tainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch20.pdf

 

[Follower]

Re: Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

Grenville - If your heart is open to the truth all that should be needed is one statement or one action. There is the one statement yet you still do not see it. Plain and simple, you are not ready.

My acceptance comes more from the back door then a straight forward answer. The Jews wanted Jesus dead, because He was claiming to be GOD.

John 19
6As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!"
But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."

7The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

John 5
16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus knew His mission on earth was to be our gift and so He had to make sure He was sacrificed. Jesus could not come out right there in front of Pilate and say yes I am GOD. The sacrifice would not have happened. Who in their right mind would try to sacrifice GOD?

Either Jesus is GOD or He is a liar and nutcase. Actually I believe that literally Jesus is GOD's WORD made incarnate- I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is GOD's WORD in the flesh. What better way to fulfill the LAW given to man then to make GOD's words come into the world as His SON, for only GOD can fufill His own LAW.

 

[doorster]

Stop going round in circles

FYI 3 --> tri --> trinity

Definitions of trinity on the Web:

• three: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one
• the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead
• trio: three people considered as a unit
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

 

[Follower]

Re: Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

Grenville - please fon't forget to link to the proof that Polycarp's and Ignatuis’ writings were forgeries.

Do you also believe that Polycarp was not martyered for his belief that Jesus was GOD?

Thanks.

 

[Follower]

Any muslim not just Imam - How does the Word of GOD become corrupt if the Word of GOD can not be corrupted?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: The 4th & 5th evidence: Mathew 26:62-66 & Luke 22:66-71

The question that must be asked is: Who is this Power? If He is God, then Jesus and God are described as two separate entities. If it is God the Father, then we have two separate beings returning at the same time.

And if the passage is to be taken as a literal vision rather than a metaphorical one, then we have God having a right hand. Perhaps I am wrong in assuming that you don't see God as having a physical body, but I don't. However, if it is to be understood in the metaphorical sense, it is also best understood as an elevation of Jesus to divine status. I have just recently posted elsewhere to show that the use of the "Son of God" title to refer to Jesus was also an assertion of divinity and was understood that way by all of Jesus' day. If you admit that Jesus saw himself as the "Son of God", then you are either also admitting that Jesus saw himself as divine or are willing to accept only that scholarship which supports your pre-conceived position and means there is no more purpose for any discussion as you are not the truth seeker you told me that you were.

 

[Walter]

Re: Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

Grenville - If your heart is open to the truth all that should be needed is one statement or one action. There is the one statement yet you still do not see it. Plain and simple, you are not ready.

My acceptance comes more from the back door then a straight forward answer. The Jews wanted Jesus dead, because He was claiming to be GOD.

John 19
6As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!"
But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."

7The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

John 5
16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus knew His mission on earth was to be our gift and so He had to make sure He was sacrificed. Jesus could not come out right there in front of Pilate and say yes I am GOD. The sacrifice would not have happened. Who in their right mind would try to sacrifice GOD?

Either Jesus is GOD or He is a liar and nutcase. Actually I believe that literally Jesus is GOD's WORD made incarnate- I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is GOD's WORD in the flesh. What better way to fulfill the LAW given to man then to make GOD's words come into the world as His SON, for only GOD can fufill His own LAW.

Dear Follower:

Please present your evidence over at "Is there any evidence in the Bible that teaches that Jesus is God" and I will happily respond.

Regards,
Grenville