Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?

[malayloveislam]

@Grace Seeker

Thanks, I also don't really know about new Protestant churches in the US. That is quite a knowledge. I still can see that those churches emphasizing on Trinity. So, what is the harmony between the belief of those churches with Islamic belief although they say G-d is One but through the representation of Three elements? We refute Trinity as it is what had been stated in Quran. Still this is a nice thread, I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[GreyKode]

Have you checked with our Muslim brethren here on that? Actually Islam does NOT teach that Jesus is THE Christ, and no where is he referred to that way in the Qur'an. Islam teaches that Jesus is a Christ (i.e. a Messiah, but not the only person who ever had that role). And while the term "Christ" is used to refer to Jesus in some English translations it is used as a name and not to designate Jesus position as THE Christ of God.

OMG Grace, how can you lie on such an obvious issue.
In the Qur'an it clearly identifies Jesus (pbuh) as the messiah

To do so would exalt Jesus above Muhammad

Again, that's a blatant lie, all muslims believe Jesus(pbuh) is the messiah, and he will be the one who comes in the end of times, and that is mentioned in one OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD's(pbuh) HADITH.

 

[GreyKode]

edit

 

[Follower]

All- LOL! Yes I confess that I jump off topic way too many times! So sorry thanks!!

That is one thing that is very good about this forum - you stick to the topic. Many forums wander through many thoughts. I have to do a better job in restraining myself!

Grenville- me a - juvenile full of zeal, I will take that as a compliment:
Matthew 19
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Actually Grenville I am old and studied many different religions for short perods of time, Islam for 5 years and Christianity for 40 years.

Grenville - I am not building a doctrine but pointing out that Jewish eyewitnesses of the time believed that Jesus was saying that He was GOD. They believed it to the point of wanting Him dead.

Grenville, what exactly do you believe about Jesus?

As the Son of GOD is Jesus a mere man?

Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross as a Gift of Grace for us from GOD?

Are you saying that you believe that GOD chose Jesus a mere man to carry the weight of the world's sins and die for us on the cross?

 

[Follower]

OMG Grace, how can you lie on such an obvious issue.
In the Qur'an it clearly identifies Jesus (pbuh) as the messiah

Yes Greykode, but the Muslim definition of what a Messiah is, is different. Doesn't it simply mean annointed one to Muslims?

Messiah
noun 1. the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people.
2. Jesus Christ, regarded by Christians as fulfilling this promise and expectation. John 4:25, 26.
3. (usually lowercase) any expected deliverer.
4. (usually lowercase) a zealous leader of some cause or project.
5. (italics) an oratorio (1742) by George Frideric Handel.

 

[GreyKode]

and no where is he referred to that way in the Qur'an

@Follower
Do you agree with him on this?

Yes Greykode, it is the Muslim definition of what a Messiah is, that is different.

Well from my understanding, there are a few others than Jesus(pbuh) who were referred to as messiahs in the bible. Therefore messiah cannot mean saviour whose death will take away sins.

 

[Walter]

What about the beginning of Saint John?

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Which were born, not blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.' John 1: 1-14.

It says that in the beginning, ie before the world was formed there was the Word, and the Word was with God (the Father) and the Word was God (the Son). It says all things were made by him and nothing was made without him. It says he was in the world and the world was made by him but the world knew him not. And it also says that the Word (ie Jesus, ie God the Son) became flesh. The only way to dodge what the text says is to completely disregard it.

Dear Fedos:

Given the eternal consequences at stake, it is not only wrong, but bordering on evil to disregard relevant evidence. I will expand on this later.

You have mentioned the evidence contained in John. Good. Let us examine it. The following evidence is taken to mean that Jesus is referred to as the Word, who was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)​

What is not in dispute is what is explicitly stated, which is that Jesus is the Word become flesh. What is in dispute is whether Jesus is God.

The evidence does not say that Jesus was God or that the Word is God as has been interpreted by Christian religious tradition. Instead the Bible explicitly states that the Word was with God, and was God in the beginning. Now, let us try to discuss this issue honestly without damaging the integrity of any of the evidence in the Bible.

Fedos, it is possible that words, before they are spoken, can be considered to be part of the person. My words not yet spoken are with me and can be said to be me. However, once spoken, they represent me, but are separate from me. If you agree, then let us see whether this explanation maintains the integrity of the evidence in the Bible.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1–2)​

The unspoken Word was with God in the beginning. This unspoken Word was God.

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3)​

The unspoken Word was spoken and creation was the result. Note that God is the Creator, and all things were made by God through the Word of God. We are essentially calling the “Word of God” the Word that belongs to God and came from God - which happens to be how Jesus described Himself.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (John 1:4–5)​

Once spoken, the Word became a separate entity with a life of His own.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)​

The Word, separated from God, eventually became flesh. The idea of the Word having life in Himself, and the Word becoming flesh, is consistent with other Biblical teachings.

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. (John 5:26–27)​

Is this the actual interpretation? I cannot say for certain. However, it is a plausible explanation that does not damage any of the evidence and which is consistent with other Biblical teachings. The interpretation that "Jesus was God" or that "the Word is God" damages the integrity of the verse and ancillary verses. We must remember that Paul indicated that there exists an element of uncertainty for the time being.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (1 Corinthians 13:9–12)​

Therefore, dogmatic (doctrinal) statements should not be made about inconclusive issues.

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

OMG Grace, how can you lie on such an obvious issue.
In the Qur'an it clearly identifies Jesus (pbuh) as the messiah



Again, that's a blatant lie, all muslims believe Jesus(pbuh) is the messiah, and he will be the one who comes in the end of times, and that is mentioned in one OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD's(pbuh) HADITH.

GreyKode, I may be incorrect, but I am not lying. I'm just reporting what has been shared with me here on that point. I have talked about Jesus as THE Messiah in the past. But I have also on those occassion experiecned that many a time I have had Muslims make a strong point about how Jesus is a messiah, but that there are many messiahs mentioned in the Bible so Christians shouldn't think that he is so unique.

Also, I don't know if English is your native tongue or not. If not, you may not be aware of the difference between the use of the definite article (Jesus is THE Messiah) and indefinite article (Jesus is A messiah). I know that Islam teaches the latter, my comment to Grenville was that I have been told here that it does not teach the former.

Perhaps I have been led astray by others. Can you point me to something that teaches the correct Islamic understanding of Jesus' Messiahship?

 

[mkh4JC]

Dear Fedos:

Given the eternal consequences at stake, it is not only wrong, but bordering on evil to disregard relevant evidence. I will expand on this later.

I'm well aware of the eternal consequences at stake, having sinned when I first accepted Christ and falling under the discipline and judgements of an almighty God (as it is described in the book of Hebrews- 'For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth) way back since the Summer of 2002. So you don't have to tell me what is at stake, I already know what is at stake.

You have mentioned the evidence contained in John. Good. Let us examine it. The following evidence is taken to mean that Jesus is referred to as the Word, who was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)​

What is not in dispute is what is explicitly stated, which is that Jesus is the Word become flesh. What is in dispute is whether Jesus is God.

The evidence does not say that Jesus was God or that the Word is God as has been interpreted by Christian religious tradition. Instead the Bible explicitly states that the Word was with God, and was God in the beginning. Now, let us try to discuss this issue honestly without damaging the integrity of any of the evidence in the Bible.

Fedos, it is possible that words, before they are spoken, can be considered to be part of the person. My words not yet spoken are with me and can be said to be me. However, once spoken, they represent me, but are separate from me. If you agree, then let us see whether this explanation maintains the integrity of the evidence in the Bible.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1–2)​

The unspoken Word was with God in the beginning. This unspoken Word was God.

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3)​

The unspoken Word was spoken and creation was the result. Note that God is the Creator, and all things were made by God through the Word of God. We are essentially calling the “Word of God” the Word that belongs to God and came from God - which happens to be how Jesus described Himself.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (John 1:4–5)​

Once spoken, the Word became a separate entity with a life of His own.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)​

The Word, separated from God, eventually became flesh. The idea of the Word having life in Himself, and the Word becoming flesh, is consistent with other Biblical teachings.

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. (John 5:26–27)​

Is this the actual interpretation? I cannot say for certain. However, it is a plausible explanation that does not damage any of the evidence and which is consistent with other Biblical teachings. The interpretation that "Jesus was God" or that "the Word is God" damages the integrity of the verse and ancillary verses. We must remember that Paul indicated that there exists an element of uncertainty for the time being.

So you basically agree that Jesus is the Word of God and that he is the Son of God but you just disagree that he is God? You ask is this the interpretation, let me ask you, why would God give authority to execute judgement on mankind to a mere man? Isn't it God's job to judge us?

 

[Walter]

Hi Follower:

Grenville, what exactly do you believe about Jesus?

As the Son of GOD is Jesus a mere man?

Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross as a Gift of Grace for us from GOD?

Are you saying that you believe that GOD chose Jesus a mere man to carry the weight of the world's sins and die for us on the cross?

I believe that Jesus is exactly who the Bible describes Him to be. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and the Word of God. Therefore, He was not a “mere man”.

Jesus was sent as the Messiah to pay the penalty for our sins by being the sacrificial lamb of God on the cross. By receiving this gift of salvation, we can become God’s children (but not gods), and cultivate a personal relationship with God our heavenly Father, who is repeatedly and explicitly described in the Bible as the God of Jesus.

Perhaps you can explain why you believe that it is so necessary for Jesus to be God.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Dear Fedos:

So you basically agree that Jesus is the Word of God and that he is the Son of God but you just disagree that he is God? You ask is this the interpretation, let me ask you, why would God give authority to execute judgement on mankind to a mere man? Isn't it God's job to judge us?

It is not about with what I happen to agree or disagree; but rather, with what is explicitly stated in the Bible.

Does the Bible state that Jesus was a mere man? Of course not. Jesus is described as being born of a virgin, and being the Word of God. Clearly Jesus was not a mere man.

Is it God's job to judge us? Yes. And God has delegated that authority to Jesus. Is it God's job to warn before the judgment? Yes, and God has used prophets to carry out His instructions. Therefore, delegating authority to Jesus is not such a far fetched idea.

Regards,
Grenville.

 

[Walter]

Yes Greykode, but the Muslim definition of what a Messiah is, is different. Doesn't it simply mean annointed one to Muslims?

GreyKode, I may be incorrect, but I am not lying. I'm just reporting what has been shared with me here on that point. I have talked about Jesus as THE Messiah in the past. But I have also on those occassion experiecned that many a time I have had Muslims make a strong point about how Jesus is a messiah, but that there are many messiahs mentioned in the Bible so Christians shouldn't think that he is so unique.

Also, I don't know if English is your native tongue or not. If not, you may not be aware of the difference between the use of the definite article (Jesus is THE Messiah) and indefinite article (Jesus is A messiah). I know that Islam teaches the latter, my comment to Grenville was that I have been told here that it does not teach the former.

Perhaps I have been led astray by others. Can you point me to something that teaches the correct Islamic understanding of Jesus' Messiahship?

Jesus is the only person described in the Qur’an as the Christ or Messiah. I can understand why some Islamic traditions would try and redefine the term Messiah in reaction to the unnecessary Christian religious traditional barrier of equating Jesus the Christ with God. However, the evidence should come from the Qur’an.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Follower]

Greykode - @Follower
Do you agree with him on this?

Here is where the problem begins. You don't know. Does the Quran fully explain it? Muslim looks to tasfir for explanation. Look at what the Quran says to do:

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

The following show Jesus to be more then just annointed.

John 18
36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

Which kingdom is greater, a kingdom of this world or the Kingdom of GOD?

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jeremiah 23

5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.

6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.

 

[Follower]

Grenville - I believe that Jesus is exactly who the Bible describes Him to be. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and the Word of God. Therefore, He was not a “mere man”.

Yes I believe too that Jesus is GOD's WORD made flesh.


Jesus was sent as the Messiah to pay the penalty for our sins by being the sacrificial lamb of God on the cross. By receiving this gift of salvation, we can become God’s children (but not gods), and cultivate a personal relationship with God our heavenly Father, who is repeatedly and explicitly described in the Bible as the God of Jesus.

Yes I agree.

Perhaps you can explain why you believe that it is so necessary for Jesus to be God.

I am that curious juvenile wanting to know all of Jesus!! Wantng to understand Jesus and GOD as much as I can. Jesus is not mere man and not GOD- then what is He?

Man labels things it is in our nature- look at the 99 names Islam has used to describe Allah's attributes.

What is this amazing and unique [even in the Quran!] Jesus?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Follower:

I believe that Jesus is exactly who the Bible describes Him to be. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and the Word of God.

I find it incredible that you can say some of these things and NOT see that the Bible also presents Jesus as God. For instance, the Bible doesn't actually explicitly say: "Jesus is the Word of God." That is an inference you draw, correctly I believe, from the text. If you are only going to believe what the Bible explicitly says, you would not believe that Jesus is the Word of God. However, you do because John 1 and other passages present him that way. In the same way, I believe that one can also infer that Jesus is himself God from those same passages. You may have chosen not to, but in my view the evidence for Jesus' divinity is every bit as well founded as the inference that Jesus is the Word of God. So, please, quit saying that I am reading into the text as if to imply that you do not. You do every bit as much as I if you are going to say that Jesus is the Word of God.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grenville, may I ask a question of you regarding your belief in Jesus as the Word of God and/or the Son of God? Was it Jesus, the Word of God, the Son of God, the Son, the Christ, or just plain God (not thought of as in any of the previously mentioned ways) who created the world? (Reference John 1:3, Colossians 1:16.)

I guess I'm asking who made the heavens, the earth, the sea?




Also, from your perspective, and based on only what you believe the Bible explicitly teaches, and nothing else, is it permissable, questionable, or impermissable to worship Jesus? Are we only to worship God (allowing for a moment your assumption that Jesus is not God) or might you worship Jesus for some other reason(s)?

 

[Oleander]

Isn't everything exist on earth and heaven is the word of God?

If we look at the first book of the Bible, we see God creation done by his word "Be", and it was.

Jesus is the word of God so you and I, the mountain, the water, the stars.

If you are not the word of God, then who made you?

 

[Grace Seeker]

If you are not the word of God, then who made you?

I suspect that there is a difference between being made by the word of God and being the word of God.

But I am particularly interested in Grenville's answer to the question I posed: "who made the heavens, the earth, the sea?" and the other quesitons I posed him. I await a reply.

 

[Walter]

I am that curious juvenile wanting to know all of Jesus!! Wantng to understand Jesus and GOD as much as I can. Jesus is not mere man and not GOD- then what is He?

Dear Follower:

You have graduated. It is mark of maturity to acknowledge when there is insufficient evidence to reach a conclusion. When that level of enlightenment is clear to you, then we can engage in mature discussion in order to find the truth, rather than engage in contentious debates in order to defend our views.

Who is Jesus? As we examine the evidence and seek the answer, let us be careful not to damage the integrity of any evidence.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Zafran]

Also, I don't know if English is your native tongue or not. If not, you may not be aware of the difference between the use of the definite article (Jesus is THE Messiah) and indefinite article (Jesus is A messiah).

the only person that is called the Messiah or anoited one is Jesus/Isa pbuh the son of mary in the Quran and Islamic tradition - although i'm sure the understanding of messiah of christainty and Islam is different.