Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?

[Walter]

That of course is your prerogative Grenville. I have met a few Christians who claim that Jesus was not God,but a created being yet still the Son of God. Muslims of course believe Jesus to be a prophet, not the Son of God or God incarnate. They of course are not bound by Chrisitan belief and doctrine.In John 10:30 Jesus says that he and the Father are one. It seems pretty clear to myself and many other Christians that Jesus is saying that he is God in the Flesh. To not believe it would make Christianity a polythesitic religion not monothesitic.

Hi Ragdollcat:

Christians and Muslims believe various things. Our concern should be with what we are supposed to believe. Christians are supposed to believe the Bible and Muslims are supposed to believe the Qur’an. Both the Bible and the Qur'an explicitly state that Jesus is the Messiah.

Regarding the evidence that you have provided about Jesus being one with God, let us examine the context before drawing a conclusion.

“I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (John 10:30–36)​

The Jews interpreted Jesus’ statement “I and my Father are one” to mean that Jesus was making Himself God. However, Jesus appeared to correct them by stating “I said, I am the Son of God”.

The assumption made is that Jesus being one with the Father means that Jesus is God. In seeking to verify this assumption, we note Jesus’ prayer for future believers.

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (John 17:20–23)​

So Jesus prays that all believers may be one with the Father, just as He and the Father are one. The original Greek word used for one (hĕis) in Jesus’ statement “I and the Father are one [hĕis]”, is the same word used when Jesus prayed that His disciples may be “one [hĕis] in us”. Since believers are not meant to become gods through becoming one with the Father, then Jesus being one with the Father is not sufficient evidence that Jesus is God.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

New evidence was proposed in the sister thread which shall be examined below.

The following evidence is taken to mean that Jesus is referred to as God.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8)​

This is a quotation from the Psalms, which reads:

Verse 6: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Verse 7: You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. (Psalms 45:6–7)​

Christian religious tradition identifies Jesus as the subject of “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”. However, this interpretation leads to confusion later where it states: “Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You”. Who is the God of God?

The integrity of the verses is maintained by assuming that verse 6 is a preamble to verse 7, and that the first part of verse 6 is addressed to God, while verse 7 is addressed to the Son. In seeking to verify this assumption, we note that in the Psalms, the writers normally switch between the first, second and third person without warning. In Psalm 46, which follows the one above, we would not interpret the person who states: “The LORD of hosts is with us” to be God who states: “Be still, and know that I am God”. I have bolded where the switches appear to occur.

Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has made desolations in the earth.
He makes wars cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariot in the fire.
Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth!
The LORD of hosts is with us;
The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah (Psalms 46:8–11)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker:
"At the moment that Jesus was conceived within Mary's womb."​

I agree with you 100%.

So do I. That is why it is reasonable to assume that before the Word was made flesh, the Word was used by God to, inter alia, create.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grenville, I believe the testimony that Jesus is presented in the scriptures as God is right before you in your last few posts. Look at them again will you. Jesus is not challenging the Jews' assumption that he has claimed to be God, he is asking why they should accuse him of blasphemy for doing so? After all, it's only blasphemy if he isn't God.

The use of the Psalms by the writer of Hebrews again points to, not away from, Jesus being presented as God.

And as you have declared that it was by the Word that all things were created, the surely Revelation 14:9 "Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water" tells us that we are to worship him.

And there can be no doubt that in Acts 2:36 -- "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." -- Peter is declaring that Jesus is the Lord that David was addressing in Psalm 110. Indeed in verse 39 Peter goes on speak with so much identified of the Lord with God that he uses the terms together saying that the promised forgiveness of sins (something that only God can actually grant) is available to those who are baptized into Jesus name and is for "all whom the Lord our God will call."

 

[Walter]

OK Grace Seeker, let us respond to each of your assertions.

Grenville, I believe the testimony that Jesus is presented in the scriptures as God is right before you in your last few posts. Look at them again will you. Jesus is not challenging the Jews' assumption that he has claimed to be God, he is asking why they should accuse him of blasphemy for doing so? After all, it's only blasphemy if he isn't God.

Please note that Jesus does not repeat their accusation. They accuse Him of being God, Jesus responds by explicitly (and repeatedly throughout the Gospels) stating: “I am the Son of God.” Jesus NEVER agreed with the Jewish religious leaders when they accused Him of being God.

The use of the Psalms by the writer of Hebrews again points to, not away from, Jesus being presented as God.

Did you not read the interpretation which I provided? What part of it do you not understand or do you disagree?

And as you have declared that it was by the Word that all things were created, the surely Revelation 14:9 "Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water" tells us that we are to worship him.

I believe that you meant Rev 14:7. Let me quote it in its context.

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Revelation 14:6-7)​

Clearly, the angel is directing people to worship God, not Jesus. We agreed that God made the world by or using His Word. His Word may be the first thing that God gave life to.

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. (John 5:26-27)​

Are you advocating that we worship God the Creator, or the instrument that God used to create?

And there can be no doubt that in Acts 2:36 -- "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." -- Peter is declaring that Jesus is the Lord that David was addressing in Psalm 110. Indeed in verse 39 Peter goes on speak with so much identified of the Lord with God that he uses the terms together saying that the promised forgiveness of sins (something that only God can actually grant) is available to those who are baptized into Jesus name and is for "all whom the Lord our God will call."

You have made the unverified assumption that Jesus being called Lord means that Jesus is God. The Scriptures are clear that God made Jesus Lord, not God. You have actually quoted such, but have interpreted Lord as God. Let us put the verse in its context.

This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘ The LORD said to my Lord,
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:32-36)​

Please note the following:
1. God is identified as the Father.

2. A reasonable interpretation is that David said that God (The LORD) said to Jesus (my Lord) … and the Scriptures state that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God.

3. God made Jesus Lord.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

Did you not read the interpretation which I provided? What part of it do you not understand or do you disagree?

I disagree with your entire interpretation.




Read what you yourself have quoted.

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. (John 5:26-27)​

Are you advocating that we worship God the Creator, or the instrument that God used to create?

They are one and the same being. That's the whole point. Remember, the Word was God (John 1:1).

You have made the unverified assumption that Jesus being called Lord means that Jesus is God.

Indeed I have. And again it seems to me that this was exactlly Peter's point. Jesus is Lord. Not just a lord, but THE LORD.

2. A reasonable interpretation is that David said that God (The LORD) said to Jesus (my Lord) … and the Scriptures state that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God.

A reasonable interpretation would NOT include the idea that God even has a right hand. That is metaphorical language.

 

[Great I am not]

Mark 10 v 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

This seems to indicate that Jesus himself is saying that he is not God.

Regards
DL

 

[Grace Seeker]

Mark 10 v 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

This seems to indicate that Jesus himself is saying that he is not God.

Regards
DL

Some have argued such, but I suggest you misunderstand it if that is how you read it.

Just as, when properly understood, Sura 5:51 "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." doesn't really mean that Muslims can't be friends with Jews and Christians; so too, when properly understood, Mark 10:18 is not evidence of Jesus saying that he is not God.

 

[alcurad]

^for the record, it doesn't mean friends.

 

[Great I am not]

Some have argued such, but I suggest you misunderstand it if that is how you read it.

Just as, when properly understood, Sura 5:51 "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." doesn't really mean that Muslims can't be friends with Jews and Christians; so too, when properly understood, Mark 10:18 is not evidence of Jesus saying that he is not God.

I do not take scripture particularly literally either but in this case regardless of the vagaries of translation from the older languages, we have a direct comparison in the same verse so the translation can be in question of the word good, but the direct comparison that Jesus makes between himself and God cannot. He is clearly saying that God and himself are not the same.

Believe what you want of course but this logic is sound.

If you will not believe what the Bible says then do not ask for Biblcal evidence if no Biblical text is, to you, evidence.

Regards
DL

 

[Great I am not]

If Jesus were God, who was he talking to on the cross when he asked--why have you forsaken me. Was he asking the question of himself? No. He was clearly asking a separate entity. God.

Regards
DL

 

[Follower]

Greatest I am - you are forgetting that Jesus was GOD and fully human. The body of a human that felt pain and hunger, but being of the very same substance of GOD.

In no way was all of the omnipresent GOD in the human body of Jesus.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I do not take scripture particularly literally either but in this case regardless of the vagaries of translation from the older languages, we have a direct comparison in the same verse so the translation can be in question of the word good, but the direct comparison that Jesus makes between himself and God cannot. He is clearly saying that God and himself are not the same.

Believe what you want of course but this logic is sound.

If you will not believe what the Bible says then do not ask for Biblcal evidence if no Biblical text is, to you, evidence.

Regards
DL

Yep, read the text and you will say that Jesus makes no comment about himself. So there is no comparison which suggests what you suppose.


On the cross he was quoting the opening line from Psalm 22, a common practice to quickly identify where he was focusing his thoughts. When read in its entirety you will see that this is a Psalm about how God is faithful and never abandons us. And again, use of this Psalm would not mean that Jesus was somehow not God. I'm sorry, you just don't get it, and I don't suppose that you ever will. That's not said to be mean, I think it is just a reality that some can see what Jesus was saying and some cannot. Jesus himself spoke of those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. I would be glad to show you all of those texts that speak to Jesus being God. We've tried to present some of them here. But you only see what you want to see and think that a single verse that shows some distancing between Jesus and God is sufficient proof that he was not. It isn't. That's the whole point. Jesus was both fully divine and fully human. Though he was God, when he came to earth in incarnate form he would voluntarily live as and be bound by his human nature. This did not eliminate his divine nature. I did not mean that God was somehow absent from heaven. And it didn't create multiple gods. But until you accept the reality that while Jesus never used the words "I am God", that he acted in such a way that other people knew he was making such a claim. And he never denied it when they accused him of such a thing and called it blasphemy, even though he well knew the punishment for a human being to claim to be God was death.

If he was just a prophet he was a terribly poor one. His message was one in which he said that he could offer them abundant life. His message was that he was the bread of life. For his message was one in which he called people to eat his flesh and drink his blood. His message was one in which he personally offered people forgiveness of sins. His message was one in which he prophesied his death and his resurrection. His message was one in which he claimed not just identity with the Father, but unity/oneness with him. His message was one in which he claimed to be King of the Jews and to be King of a kingdom that was not of this world. His message was one in which he presented himself as a stairway to heaven. His message was one wherein he promised eternal salvation not to those who followed his command, but to those who believed in him himself as a source of salvation. His message was that he existed and was present with God before Abraham was born. His message was that he was personally worthy of worship.

In other words, in the immortal words of C.S. Lewis, Jesus was NOT just a great teacher:

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher [or merely a prophet]. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

 

[Zafran]

Some have argued such, but I suggest you misunderstand it if that is how you read it.

Just as, when properly understood, Sura 5:51 "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." doesn't really mean that Muslims can't be friends with Jews and Christians; so too, when properly understood, Mark 10:18 is not evidence of Jesus saying that he is not God.

That verse doesnt mean friends but protectors -

but more importantly for the thread what does mark 10:18 indicate other then Jesus pbuh is not being God but lower?

 

[Grace Seeker]

That verse doesnt mean friends but protectors -

I am aware of how it is interpretted by most on this board. I'm using it to point out that the apparent interpretation isn't always the correct interpretation.

but more importantly for the thread what does mark 10:18 indicate other then Jesus pbuh is not being God but lower?

Let's begin by looking at the verse not in isolation, but in context:

Mark 10

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Here is what I see in the passage. While Jesus' reply to the man is rather abrupt, it serves to call the man's attention to his use of langauge.

The man is calling Jesus "good". Does he mean this in some sort of flowery, self-effacing way that doesn't have any substance to it? Or does he truly intend to call Jesus good. For, as Jesus points out what every truly devout Jew of his day should already know, no one is good -- except God alone.

In other words, if this man is really and intentionally calling Jesus good, then he is making a declaration of faith in Jesus as God. If he doesn't really mean that, then he shouldn't be using the term, for that would be in essence to take God's name in vain, a violation of the commandments when he is asking about how to gain eternal life. Doesn't he know the commandments?

The man says that he not only knows them, but keeps them. Jesus says that this isn't enough. That he still lacks something. He lacks the actually following. Now if he is keeping the commandments, how is he not following the commandments. Answer: He is following the commandments. But he needs to do more than that, he also needs to follow Jesus.

But if the man is already following the commandments that God himself gave to Moses, then how does following Jesus aid him any more? Because the purpose of following the commandments is not about doing right vs. doing wrong. It is about following them in such a way that they lead us to God. And here, right before this man, is one who truly can be called good. Does the man recognize this? Or is he just offering empty praise? Well, Jesus puts him to the test. The test isn't as much, "why do you call me good?" the real test is the man's willingness to follow not just the commandments, but to follow Jesus. For, it is in following Jesus that we follow the one who gave the commandments in the first place.

As the Interpreter's Bible commentary writes on this: "Jesus was not giving a theological dogma, but expressing the natural attitude of toward God of every pious Jew." He wanted this man to consider more carefully his words. Were they conventional flattery, for which Jesus had no desire, or were they recognition of who Jesus really was? If they were the latter, Jesus called the man to follow him.

Evidently this man didn't think Jesus was such a good teacher afterall, for he didn't follow the teacher's directions even though he was promised treasure in heaven if he had done so.

 

[Zafran]

I am aware of how it is interpretted by most on this board. I'm using it to point out that the apparent interpretation isn't always the correct interpretation.

The word is "Awaliya" not "wali" which means friends so Its not a intrepreatation - its actually what the word is.

anyway thanks for the interpretataion although i disagree with it.

 

[Yanal]

How can we trust the bible which was corrupted in the 1500-1600? The original bible before Elizabeth I rule was established but during Elizabeths rule it got changed because of a few Protestants who were just doing good. Elizabeth the first was a avid reader and took interest in every religion and that made her want to make her country pure Catholic became true,however during these times the Catholic church was corrupted. The Church at that time stated "We know and are the only ones that can interupt Gods book" that caused many people to protest and a few of them were great debaters. Such as Erasmus wanted the bible to be vernacular(in different languages) and protested until the Church reformed and until they gave up he kept on trying. He was succesful in making the bible available in all languages but that was what caused the corruption of the bible. The copies spread rapidly in every language.Humanists were against both the Protestants and Church because they believed "We can decide what our destiny is". The Humanists started tearing pages and recopying the bible to lure Christians out and make misunderstanding statements such about Prophet Isa(AS). Prophet Isa (AS) was called out to the heavens long before this occurred and no one could do anything.

 

[YusufNoor]

Hi Everyone:

The promotion of Jesus as God has been an unnecessary barrier keeping Christians and Muslims apart. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. However, there are a group of Christians, called Trinitarians, who believe otherwise. Quite a few threads in this forum degenerate into arguments about the Trinity. This thread is for anyone, especially Trinitarians, to provide any Biblical evidence that shows that Jesus is God, so that we can discuss it honestly in order to learn the Truth.

Those Muslims who believe that Christians and Muslims are not brothers because they believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, are welcome to present their evidence here also.

Who will be first.

Regards,
Grenville

let's assume for a minute that you can read English [and we can also assume that i haven't read the entire thread], can we assume that?

why would "orthodox" Christians have selected the writings that they did as canon if they DIDN'T portray Jesus as such or at the least contain writings that could be interpreted that way? especially quasi-gnostic writings such as what is know as "the Gospel of John" as well as the writings of the Pharisee, Saul of Tarsus.

once the Message that Jesus preached was changed into the Message about Jesus, writings that reveal the former [as most of what is now called "the Gospel of Matthew" does] would be cast aside in favor of those that conform to the latter.

seems silly to discuss it here. it is YOUR book that says:

John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

while those verses APPEAR BINITARIAN and NOT TRINITARIAN, they ARE polytheistic and claim that Jesus is both the son and the creator god!?

don't blame us for that!

 

[Walter]

Some have argued such, but I suggest you misunderstand it if that is how you read it. ... so too, when properly understood, Mark 10:18 is not evidence of Jesus saying that he is not God.

In other words, if this man is really and intentionally calling Jesus good, then he is making a declaration of faith in Jesus as God.

Dear Grace Seeker:

This is an unverified assumption. The passage may be "properly understood" after the assumptions on which you base your interpretations are verified. If a conclusive verification cannot be made, then a reasonable one may do.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Post repeated in error.