Is there any Christians who still pray that way?

[Sol Invictus]

If I accept your argument that "latreuo" is only used with reference to God throughout the NT, there still seems to be some ambiguity in Revelation 22:3 as to whether the pronoun “him” refers to the Lamb or to God.

yeah, which leads me into my next point concerning that verse. but first, here it is again:

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve (latreusousin) him. They will see his face (to prosopon autou), and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever." Revelation 22:1-5

we should note that john says four things about the one who is receiving latreuo:

1. his servants will serve him
2. his face will be seen
3. his name will be on his servant's foreheads
4. he will provide them with light

throughtout the new testament, the same is said of christ:

1. his servants will serve him.

"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads MY SERVANTS into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols." Revelation 2:18-20

2. his face will be seen.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen." Revelation 1:7

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3

(we know that the above verse is speaking of christ because of similar verses such as the following:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Romans 8:29

"So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:45-49

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (en prosopo Christou)." 2 Corinthians 4:4-6)

3. his name will be on his servants’ foreheads.

"Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him MY NEW NAME." Revelation 3:12

"And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having HIS NAME and the name of his Father on their foreheads." Revelation 14:1

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God AND THE LAMB." Revelation 14:4

4. he will provide them with light.

"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty AND THE LAMB are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb IS ITS LAMP. The nations will walk by ITS LIGHT, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it." Revelation 21:22-24

it's fairly interesting when we compare the above with the following ot passages:

"The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end." Isaiah 60:19-20

"You are MY LAMP, O LORD; the LORD turns my darkness into light." 2 Samuel 22:29

"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put MY SANCTUARY among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when MY SANCTUARY is among them forever." Ezekiel 37:26-28

there is much, much more that could be said on the subject but i think that the above is enough.

 

[Predator]

Airforce,

It is hard to interact with someone when they take an agressive and hostile tone. In a gentlemanly discussion there is no need to disparage the one your trying to refute. While I do not believe Sol knows everything, he has certainly demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about. And he has demonstrated that he is very aware of the use of a word in different contexts to mean different things. The accusations you raise (or, rather, that you copied from a website presenting them as your own, without citing the source, which is dishonest) can be answered reasonably. But I have a greater concern for you than the disparagement you have cast on the Holy Scriptures. It is written,

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matt 12:32

In your attempt to refute the Holy Scriptures and Christians there is no need to speak against the Holy Spirit. Be careful my friend.

It doesnt matter one bit to me since i dont beleive your book is the word of God . The Holy Ghost who has inspired authors of the bible has proven himself a failure . Period.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Just a reminder to please keep this discussion civilised.

 

[Predator]

Jesus said the following concerning praying:


5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.11 Give us this day our daily bread.12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 5-15)

Thus Jesus commanded his followers to pray to the Father, to the true God who is in the heavens as he says, Jesus did not command his followers to pray to him, so therefore why do Christians pray to Jesus when he explicitly taught people to pray to the Father!


So when Christians pray to Jesus they are simply acting against what he taught, and are acting on an innovation, and this innovation is a major sin, worshipping anything else beside the true God is a major sin, so why do Christians do it?

Secondly if one were to continue reading the Gospels one would find Jesus praying as well, as the Gospel says:

36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (Matthew 26:36-39)

Here we see Jesus praying, and he is praying to none other than the Father as he commanded his believers to do so! So why do Christians worship Jesus when he prayed to the Father, and taught you to worship the Father!

It also makes it more interesting to note that Jesus prays or prayed like a Muslim does, which is prostrating ones forehead on the ground. Will Christians now mock Jesus as they sometimes mock the way Muslims pray when we prostrate our foreheads to the ground? It seems the joke is now on the Christians who mock the Muslim prayer! (oh look at all those Muslims with their butt in the air! Haha) . Christians lying on thier knees before bed isnt the way Jesus prayed . So why do you do it ? Think about it.

 

[gmcbroom]

Airforce, your last post speaks volumes. Tell me does the Koran or the books (Hadiths) allow for you to insult people of a different faith? I know the bible doesn't. And regrettfully while there are christians that do insult those of different faiths their not behaving as christians should and will be judged accordingly in the end as we all will.

 

[Ramadhan]

Airforce, your last post speaks volumes. Tell me does the Koran or the books (Hadiths) allow for you to insult people of a different faith? I know the bible doesn't. And regrettfully while there are christians that do insult those of different faiths their not behaving as christians should and will be judged accordingly in the end as we all will.

If you claim that Airforce's last post insult christians, then you are at the same time also making claim that the bible are insulting christians, because Airforce's last post is nothing but bible verses about how Jesus (pbuh) prayed.

 

[gmcbroom]

I don't see how but I'll take your word for it. I thought I refering to those that make fun of others because of the way they pray.
Still you say tomato I'll say tomatoe. In short, those that insult others need to carefully look in the mirror, because we'll all have to give an accounting in the end. Don't you agree?

 

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

Jesus did not command his followers to pray to him, so therefore why do Christians pray to Jesus when he explicitly taught people to pray to the Father!

Christians lying on thier knees before bed isnt the way Jesus prayed . So why do you do it ? Think about it.

Acts 7
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

This is a text within the bible which portrays the martyr Stephen not only praying to Jesus, but praying to Jesus without even having fallen to his knees yet.

So why do Christians worship Jesus when he prayed to the Father, and taught you to worship the Father!

Matthew 28
9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

This is a text from the bible which portrays the women worshiping Jesus without reprimand.

 

[Ramadhan]

Acts 7
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

This is a text within the bible which portrays the martyr Stephen not only praying to Jesus, but praying to Jesus without even having fallen to his knees yet.
Matthew 28
9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

This is a text from the bible which portrays the women worshiping Jesus without reprimand.

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?

they were original written in koine greek which was the speech most accessible to the widest possible audience. this was in order to spread the gospel to as great a number of people as possible seeing as god has intended for christianity to be the religion of all people. that said, what exactly is your point with the above and how in fact does this disprove anything that the member said? if anything, the muslim position has been refuted and you are now changing the subject from whether or not the worship of christ is taught within scripture to what language it was originally written in. the above is a prime example of a non-sequitur.

 

[Ramadhan]

they were original written in koine greek which was the speech most accessible to the widest possible audience. this was in order to spread the gospel to as great a number of people as possible seeing as god has intended for christianity to be the religion of all people. that said, what exactly is your point with the above and how in fact does this disprove anything that the member said? if anything, the muslim position has been refuted and you are now changing the subject from whether or not the worship of christ is taught within scripture to what language it was originally written in. the above is a prime example of a non-sequitur.

You may not believe it, but I, and I am sure majority of humanity, believe it is important to know exactly what was originally actually said and was actually meant.

 

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?

Sir, I neither understand nor speak Greek or Arabic, though I assume that when I study an English Q'uran the translation is accurate enough to preserve the original message and meaning.

 

[Ramadhan]

Sir, I neither understand nor speak Greek or Arabic, though I assume that when I study an English Q'uran the translation is accurate enough to preserve the original message and meaning.

This does not answer my question.

 

[Sol Invictus]

This does not answer my question.

once again your question is a non-sequitur. your question has been answered yet you refuse to accept the answer.

that said, are you at all aware of the LXX? the fact is that prior to the christian era the jews themselves translated the hewbrew scriptures into greek. the LXX had a nice enough circulation among the jews and converted gentiles. it is therefore not surprising that the original gospel would also be written in greek because this was the lingua franca of the day. this was in order to allow the maximum possible exposure of the gospel to the masses. most scholars (and not just christian) are in agreement that the gospels were written in greek, it is simply individuals such as yourself that refuse to admit this. another important factor is the fact that paul, himself a jew was writing his letters in greek and not hebrew, this furthermore lends credence to the view that a global message such as that of the gospel would in fact have been written in greek. just as today, the lingua franca is english and as such if you want to expose your work to the largest variety of people then you will write in english. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that when you are spreading a universal message.

 

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

This does not answer my question.

I apologize if you do not feel satisfied with the conversation I have offered thus far.

 

[Ramadhan]

I am afraid Sol and Usay forgot what I asked, so here's again:

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?

 

[Sol Invictus]

what exactly would it prove even if we were to give you the narrations? anyway, here they are all the same.

here is what the gospel was originally written in (matthew 28:9-10):

9 καὶ ἰδοὺ Ἰησοῦς ὑπήντησεν αὐταῖς λέγων· χαίρετε. αἱ δὲ προσελθοῦσαι ἐκράτησαν αὐτοῦ τοὺς πόδας καὶ προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ. 10 τότε λέγει αὐταῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· μὴ φοβεῖσθε· ὑπάγετε ἀπαγγείλατε τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς μου ἵνα ἀπέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν, κακεῖ με ὄψονται.

here we have it in hebrew:

הנה הלכות להגיד לתלמידיו והנה ישוע נקרה אליהן ויאמר שלום לכן ותגשנה ותאחזנה ברגליו ותשתחוין לו׃

ויאמר אליהן ישוע אל תיראן לכנה והגדן לאחי וילכו הגלילה ושם יראוני׃

acts 7:59-60:

καὶ ἐλιθοβόλουν τὸν Στέφανον ἐπικαλούμενον καὶ λέγοντα· κύριε Ἰησοῦ, δέξαι τὸ πνεῦμα μου. 60 θεὶς δὲ τὰ γόνατα ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· κύριε, μὴ στήσῃς αὐτοῖς ταύτην τὴν ἁμαρτίαν, καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐκοιμήθη.

Acts 7:59 Hebrew Bible
ויסקלו את אסטפנוס והוא משוע ואמר אדני ישוע קבל את רוחי׃
ויכרע על ברכיו ויצעק בקול גדול יהוה אל תשמר להם את החטא הזה ויהי אחרי דברו כדבר הזה ויישן׃

do let us know if you detect any change in the meaning between the greek, hebrew and english passages that were quoted for you earlier.

 

[Ramadhan]

what exactly would it prove even if we were to give you the narrations? anyway, here they are all the same.

Because we all know that the original words when translated to different languages would lose their exact meaning, nuances, etc. So without the originals preserved, we can never guarantee what is written in different languages convey the exact same meanings.

here is what the gospel was originally written in (matthew 28:9-10):

Both you and I know that it is not the original, unless you like to delude yourself. No one else even remotely believe it is the original, not even bible scholars, as the oldest preserved bible were from the 4th century, unless you think scraps of manuscript the size of a credit card containing few verses as the complete bible. And even then, it was not written in the language of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. So no one actually knows exactly what Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples really spoke and meant.

here we have it in hebrew:

Both you and I know that the hebrew NT was translated from english NT, either you try to delude yourself or you really think that english was the original language of Jesus (pbuh).

 

[Sol Invictus]

Both you and I know that it is not the original, unless you like to delude yourself. No one else even remotely believe it is the original, not even bible scholars, as the oldest preserved bible were from the 4th century, unless you think scraps of manuscript the size of a credit card containing few verses as the complete bible. And even then, it was not written in the language of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. So no one actually knows exactly what Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples really spoke and meant.

congratulations you have just shot yourself in the foot. the qur'an is not written in the original language of christ either and if we are to go by what you said then we must also discount it. i was simply waiting for you to get to this point so that i could show you how your logic actually disproves your own holy book. the fact is that the qur'an is written in arabic and seeing as your point rests on the fact that the current bible is supposedly not the original one and that it is not written in the language that christ supposedly spoke then what about the qur'an when it speaks of the old testament prophets? did they speak arabic too? also, where are your copies of the original gospel, torah etc.? don't all muslims claim that these have been lost? so once again, you've only refuted yourself and islam.

Both you and I know that the hebrew NT was translated from english NT, either you try to delude yourself or you really think that english was the original language of Jesus (pbuh).

the hebrew was translated from the original language of the gospel, greek.

 

[Ramadhan]

congratulations you have just shot yourself in the foot. the qur'an is not written in the original language of christ either and if we are to go by what you said then we must also discount it. i was simply waiting for you to get to this point so that i could show you how your logic actually disproves your own holy book. the fact is that the qur'an is written in arabic and seeing as your point rests on the fact that the current bible is supposedly not the original one and that it is not written in the language that christ supposedly spoke then what about the qur'an when it speaks of the old testament prophets? did they speak arabic too? also, where are your copies of the original gospel, torah etc.? don't all muslims claim that these have been lost? so once again, you've only refuted yourself and islam.

The Qur'an was revealed through an arab in Arabia, hence it was conveyed in arabic. Do you think it's acceptable if we have the qur'an written in Greek koine while we have no orginal in arabic?

Where was injeel revealed and through whom?
In athena through a greek?
or in medieval england through an englishman?