No, she was not using it as evidence for God's existence, but rather making the point that some people can't find evidence of God because they don't look for it. Though they have eyes, they are completely and utterly blind to the evidence that surrounds them. They deny these evidences of God's existence and do not see the absolute and undeniable miracle of life, life processes and species of life as evidence for an all powerful and sentient Creator. Those who reject faith, among all people, are to be pitied even while they look with disdain at those who believe in the unseen.
Is There Evidence of Allah's Existence?
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[FONT=Verdana,arial]
وَيَصْنَعُ الْفُلْكَ وَكُلَّمَا مَرَّ عَلَيْهِ مَلأٌ مِّن قَوْمِهِ سَخِرُواْ مِنْهُ قَالَ إِن تَسْخَرُواْ مِنَّا فَإِنَّا نَسْخَرُ مِنكُمْ كَمَا تَسْخَرُونَ
WayasnaAAu alfulka wakullama marra AAalayhi malaon min qawmihi sakhiroo minhu qala in taskharoo minna fainna naskharu minkum kama taskharoona
[FONT=Verdana,arial]11:38 ---------------------------- Every time that the chiefs of his people passed by him, they threw ridicule on him. He said: "If ye ridicule us now, we (in our turn) can look down on you with ridicule likewise!
is all I can personally think of when they lay it on thick and believe they're being funny, and covering it with enough unctuousness so that it slips by many readers.
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It attempts to deal with the Problem of Evil. And it completely fails at doing so.
The barber has limited knowledge and limited power to change things. God is claimed to have limitless knowledge and limitless power to change things. The Barber in that story allows unkempt to exist because he doesn't know about them all and couldn't help them even if he did. This does not apply to God.
This analogy is one of the worst responses to the Problem of Evil that I have seen. The "need for free will" response is better, though still very flawed.
Also note that the Problem of Evil only addresses the claim of all good, all knowing, and all powerful Gods. If any of those three things are not claimed then the Problem of Evil doesn't apply.
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No, the barber used that issue of evil as proof there is no all loving God and the other person used the unkempt person as a sarcastic point that his presence rather than showing a lack of existence of barbers instead that he did not look for a barber. The issue of the existence of evil as proof there is no God misses the point of our existence which is to worship God, to be charitable with others and to bear with patience what has been written for us. We sometimes expect this world to be an utopia or a garden of paradise from whence Adam and Eve were ejected. When our lives have pain and suffering some complain with "Why me?" and some see the suffering of others and complain "If there was a God, then He would not allow this." Our life on earth is merely a test and a trial. It is not an end in and of itself, but merely a passing milli-moment in time. After our death we can't come back to change how we lived or the choices we made. This life is a test, but the existence of God touches upon a related question and that is of our own existence and what is being tested. Does our existence begin at our conception and end with our death? What is our existence defined by - our bodies and physical appearance, our personality, our intellect and acquired knowledge, our beliefs or lack thereof, our accumulated good and bad deeds, our intentions and thoughts? The bottom line is who can definitively answer the question, "Who am I?" any better than, "Does God exist?"
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Again, another verse springs to mind here:
Sahih International
And when it is said to them, "Spend from that which Allah has provided for you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Should we feed one whom, if Allah had willed, He would have fed? You are not but in clear error."
And when it is said to them, "Spend from that which Allah has provided for you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Should we feed one whom, if Allah had willed, He would have fed? You are not but in clear error."
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A very good point akhi.
Humans have been given free will. Guidance has been given to us on how best to use it.
If only sweetness and light prevailed in the world, they would then say, why are we controlled to such an extent that no evil or no bad is allowed? When evil is allowed as per man's own doing, then they say, why is evil allowed? Almost analagous to the verse sister العنود has posted. My fear is that they will reach their graves circling within such a never ending conundrum.
My thoughts exactly.
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That has nothing to do with the using evil for or against the existence of God. That assumes God exists and declares our purpose is to serve him, etc. That has nothing to do with the story or analogy.
So you say. I see no reason to agree. I don't want to treat this life, probably my only life, as a testing ground or waiting room for something that may or may not come later. Ill treat others well because I have empathy for them and want to live in a world where people treat each other well. I don't need to gear my life towards pleasing an authority figure, and especially not one that I have no reason to think exists.
People who suffer, starve, are tortured, are afflicted with disease, etc, don't see it as a mere milli-moment. Their suffering is real and often long drawn out.
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That is a much better argument than the one in the story. It is the "Free Will" argument I was referring to above. It is coherent and logical.
But it doesn't account for suffering caused by disease, natural disasters, etc. Not all suffering is caused by human choices.
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actually it is all explained in Islam:
'Abdullah ibn 'Umar said, "The Prophet, peace be upon him, came to us and said, 'O Muhajirun, (emigrants from Makkah to al-Madinah) you may be afflicted by five things; God forbid that you should live to see them. If fornication should become widespread, you should realise that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people which their forebears never suffered. If people should begin to cheat in weighing out goods, you should realise that this has never happened without drought and famine befalling the people, and their rulers oppressing them. If people should withhold zakat, you should realise that this has never happened without the rain being stopped from falling; and were it not for the animals' sake, it would never rain again. If people should break their covenant with Allah and His Messenger, you should realise that his has never happened without Allah sending an enemy against them to take some of their possessions by force. If the leaders do not govern according to the Book of Allah, you should realise that this has never happened without Allah making them into groups and making them fight one another.' " [Ibn Majah]
as well:
وَاتَّقُوا فِتْنَةً لَا تُصِيبَنَّ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْكُمْ خَاصَّةً ۖ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{25}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 8:25] And guard yourselves against a chastisement which cannot fall exclusively on those of you who are wrong-doers, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.
Also it is a matter of struggle, and learning, and overcoming, and helping.. what theme per atheists should life be designed around? a paradisaical one?[/SIZE][/FONT]
'Abdullah ibn 'Umar said, "The Prophet, peace be upon him, came to us and said, 'O Muhajirun, (emigrants from Makkah to al-Madinah) you may be afflicted by five things; God forbid that you should live to see them. If fornication should become widespread, you should realise that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people which their forebears never suffered. If people should begin to cheat in weighing out goods, you should realise that this has never happened without drought and famine befalling the people, and their rulers oppressing them. If people should withhold zakat, you should realise that this has never happened without the rain being stopped from falling; and were it not for the animals' sake, it would never rain again. If people should break their covenant with Allah and His Messenger, you should realise that his has never happened without Allah sending an enemy against them to take some of their possessions by force. If the leaders do not govern according to the Book of Allah, you should realise that this has never happened without Allah making them into groups and making them fight one another.' " [Ibn Majah]
as well:
وَاتَّقُوا فِتْنَةً لَا تُصِيبَنَّ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْكُمْ خَاصَّةً ۖ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{25}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 8:25] And guard yourselves against a chastisement which cannot fall exclusively on those of you who are wrong-doers, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.
Also it is a matter of struggle, and learning, and overcoming, and helping.. what theme per atheists should life be designed around? a paradisaical one?[/SIZE][/FONT]
What you wrote reminded me of this hadith, {Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said that one amongst the denizens of Hell who had led a life of ease and plenty amongst the people of the world would be made to dip in Fire only once on the Day of Resurrection and then it would be said to him: O, son of Adam, did you find any comfort, did you happen to get any material blessing? He would say: By Allah, no, my Lord. And then that person from amongst the persons of the world be brought who had led the most miserable life (in the world) from amongst the inhabitants of Paradise and he would be made to dip once in Paradise and it would be said to him. 0, son of Adam, did you face, any hardship? Or had any distress fallen to your lot? And he would say: By Allah, no, 0 my Lord, never did I face any hardship or experience any distress.}
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العنود;1585750 said:
This is a step beyond vicarious sacrifice and redemption as practiced by the Christians. This is straight into vicarious punishment. I am to be punished with natural disasters for something you did? Something I had no knowledge of you doing? Something I had no power to stop you from doing? God has no power to punish each of us in proportion to our wrongdoing? Or does he just have no interest in doing so? Can you see the fundamental injustice here?
Basic empathy is a start. I know it isn't really enough to fix the world, and it probably never will be, but at least it isn't all about causing people suffering because others didn't pick the right God or do the right ritual or say the right magic words.
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I see it as very natural. The same way if a part of your body is aching the rest of your body aches too. When you've a migraine you don't think oh well my feet feel great. We are one human family and whomever does something wrong it affects the rest. If you want to fix the whole you've to fix the part and that's mainly our concern with the rest of humanity and why they need to walk aright and straight. This however doesn't affect rewards & punishment in the hereafter, then everyone is responsible for their own deeds. But don't lie to yourself, if you work in a place and one member isn't pulling their weight isn't everyone else affected too?
Al-Anbiya (The Prophets)[21:23]
[RECITE] 
La yusalu AAamma yafAAalu wahum yusaloona
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Can you put that in your own words? The problem with quoting holy books is that they make little sense to those not steeped in that particular religion.
No, it is not about vicarious punishment. Another translation reads, {And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial) which affects not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong (but it may afflict all the good and the bad people), and know that Allah is Severe in punishment.} and a third reads, {Beware of discord that harms not only the wrongdoers among you: know that God is severe in His punishment.} I understand the first part to refer to this life and the second part to the Hereafter. The Arabic word fitna means more than chastisement depending on the context.
The hadith means that the punishment of Hell is so extremely severe that those who enjoyed the life of this world to the fullest extent by worldly standards of luxury, ease and plenty yet who are sentenced to punishment in the Hereafter will entirely forget the joys of this life and it will seem as mere folly and but a distant dream. In contrast the pleasures and joys of Paradise will be so unimaginably great that whatever suffering a person endured during this life again will seem infinitesimally minor in a relative sense. This gets back to the notion of any number divided by infinity in all practical respects is zero.
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So its just saying heaven and hell are the ultimate carrot and stick? No surprse there. They threaten you and bribe you to get you to obey.
So your response to the great suffering that people to through in life, and God allowing it to happen (or causing it to), is that they will suffer much much more later (if they are non-muslim or bad muslims) or have a much better time later (if they are good muslims)? This shows a complete lack of empathy for the here and now. Disease, famine, etc are real (whereas the afterlife may or may not be) and worth caring about. They are not "in all practical respects zero".
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While we are talking about the Problem of Evil, we should mention the suffering of non-human animals too. How do you explain a loving, all powerful, all knowing God creating carnivores? These are animals that can only survive by inflicting pain and death on others. God couldn't have designed a system of life without that? He didn't want to?
to be quite fair, an animal is an animal. cows act like cows and tigers act like tigers.
take them out of the wild and you could probably put your head in a tigers mouth.
put people into the wild and its like lord of the flies.
men would easily take the words of your tongue to get a step up.
i cant really explain why god would put anything through this place. all i know is that people are more than flesh and bone.
life is just a test of character. and a few more verses of the quran let you know it aswell.. unfortunately its better if you read it yourself.
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As we already keep reiterating Islam is a complete religion & everything is discussed and covered:
In fact per previous post, where I quoted the hadith, sometimes it rains on a terrible people just for the sake of animals not humans.
“There is no creature moving on the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are all communities like you. We have not missed anything in the Book. Then, to their Lord all of them shall be gathered.” (Qurʾan 6:38)
“Allah will resurrect all the creation on the day of rising; animals, birds, cattle and everything. The justice of Allah will prevail even in favour of the hornless animal against the horned animal. Allah will then instruct, "Become dust". This is the very matter that is referred to in the words of Allah; “… the disbeliever will say [when they shall see animals being turned into soil], “O would that I had turned into dust - Qurʾan 78:40” (Musannaf Abd al Razzaq)