Is There Such a Thing As Freedom Of Speech?

[dusk]

I presume your gripe with theocracy would be Islam

No my gripe with theocracy is Catholicism just the same. What we had in medieval Europe was theocracy and it was a dark age.
Islam, Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox in Russia neither is supposed to impose their rules that they have from their holy books. If people of one religion want to gather at some place and build a theocracy fine but I wouldn't want to live there. In Europe we had our enlightenment period and I am rather fond of the accomplishments of philosophers in that period. I would not want to go back to 14th century. There is still enough church influence as it is.
I am just glad that the fundamentalist core is a very small percentage with no real influence anywhere but in the church itself.

'patriarchal religious tradition' at any rate you shouldn't give yourself the right to speak on behalf of another gender or another people!

Patriarchic are those that think the man stands above the woman and has somehow the right to do so. If equality is the goal, equal chances, protection of the weak that cannot fend for themselves like children and sometimes dependent woman than there should to be laws to ensure it. Those I can give my vote to.
It is difficult when interests collide but there should be good logical reasons for laws IMO. Unquestioned rules from old books and the interpretation of some people is not good enough reason in a multicultural society. People can get their ideas from Sharia law. I would have no problem with that but the justification should not be 'because my book says so'. Regardless which holy book it is. Upanishads or whatever.

 

[جوري]

No my gripe with theocracy is Catholicism just the same. What we had in medieval Europe was theocracy and it was a dark age.
Islam, Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox in Russia neither is supposed to impose their rules that they have from their holy books. If people of one religion want to gather at some place and build a theocracy fine but I wouldn't want to live there. In Europe we had our enlightenment period and I am rather fond of the accomplishments of philosophers in that period. I would not want to go back to 14th century. There is still enough church influence as it is.
I am just glad that the fundamentalist core is a very small percentage with no real influence anywhere but in the church itself.

Your gripe should indeed be with Christian history and its dark ages. Islamic history isn't included in that, if any country in Europe was considered the Jewel it was Spain under Muslim rule. Theocracy means that the pope or whomever is getting direct divine inspiration to do this or that and that's contrary to Islamic system!

Patriarchic are those that think the man stands above the woman and has somehow the right to do so. If equality is the goal, equal chances, protection of the weak that cannot fend for themselves like children and sometimes dependent woman than there should to be laws to ensure it. Those I can give my vote to.

This has to do with Muslims how?

It is difficult when interests collide but there should be good logical reasons for laws IMO. Unquestioned rules from old books and the interpretation of some people is not good enough reason in a multicultural society. People can get their ideas from Sharia law. I would have no problem with that but the justification should not be 'because my book says so'. Regardless which holy book it is. Upanishads or whatever.

Logic indeed plays a factor but so does justice and that's the main goal of the law. Not many people will see logic when the death penalty is implemented - It isn't a scientific formula - fairness, justice and a society that functions healthily is the purpose!

best,

 

[titus]

Your gripe should indeed be with Christian history and its dark ages. Islamic history isn't included in that, if any country in Europe was considered the Jewel it was Spain under Muslim rule. Theocracy means that the pope or whomever is getting direct divine inspiration to do this or that and that's contrary to Islamic system!

When it comes to Muslim rule in Spain many Muslims tend to whitewash the history. Yes, compared to medieval Europe it was better, but it also had it shares of massacres of religious minorities and forced immigrations.

Theocracy is the incorrect term when it comes to Sharia, but you are arguing semantics. Rule based on religious law is what I believe he is concerned with. If you want to argue the benefits of the rules of an Islamic state then let us look at modern day examples of Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Look at how the laws are enforced there, places where any religion has to be approved by the government and the blasphemy laws are unfairly enforced way more often on non-Muslims than on Muslims. That is the reality of rule based on religion.

This has to do with Muslims how?

Based on history. Can you name any female Caliphs? What percentage of scholars throughout history have been female?

I find that VERY hard to believe. What was the sample size? 20 people? The target audience for that poll? What was the margin of error?

The sample size was 2000 people and I could not find the margin of error, but I may not have looked hard enough. Here is a link to the poll which was taken shortly after the London bombings. It was done by the Pew Research Center, which you can research easily enough, is a non-partisan fact finding group that monitors many things including religious attitudes around the world.

I'll believe that when Muslim women who wear the hijab can walk out of their houses in America without fear of being verbally attacked and harassed. And when mothers on public trains don't move their children away from a Muslim woman because she thinks her very presence on the train is going to somehow harm her child. Or when a Muslim woman can walk on a university campus without wondering if everyone is staring and laughing at her. Or when a Muslim woman can walk into a place of employment with her hijab on and get the job without being dismissed for simply being a Muslim.

The community where I live has a fairly large Muslim population and women often come into my business wearing the hijab. Never have I seen anyone harass them anywhere, and I know that if anyone did that others around them would defend her. I have no doubt of this.

Just a couple of months ago I went to my friend's daughter's graduation in the middle of East Texas, the epicenter of rednecks. If there were going to be small minded idiots who hate Muslims it would be there, you think. The valedictorian was a hijab wearing Muslim and there were a few others in the class. After the graduation I saw my friend's daughter and most of the rest of the class taking pictures with those girls, talking to them about the fun they had in school, what they were going to do, etc. I saw no hatred from anyone and I certainly saw no fear from those girls. in fact I didn't see anyone treating them any differently in the slightest. If people are afraid to go out in their hijab then they are in fear of an extreme minority and by no means the majority of the population of this country.

 

[جوري]

When it comes to Muslim rule in Spain many Muslims tend to whitewash the history. Yes, compared to medieval Europe it was better, but it also had it shares of massacres of religious minorities and forced immigrations.

It is easier to re-write history after most trace evidence of it had been wiped out by the Inquisition isn't it? Entire libraries, infrastructures not to mention people burnt and tortured can indeed be summed up in your 'whitewash'!

Theocracy is the incorrect term when it comes to Sharia, but you are arguing semantics. Rule based on religious law is what I believe he is concerned with. If you want to argue the benefits of the rules of an Islamic state then let us look at modern day examples of Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Look at how the laws are enforced there, places where any religion has to be approved by the government and the blasphemy laws are unfairly enforced way more often on non-Muslims than on Muslims. That is the reality of rule based on religion.

If you scroll back you'll find that it was your atheist pal who introduced the term not my person. If you want to argue rules of an 'Islamic state' then won't you pretty please find one that's actually in existence and then come back to have this discussion.

Based on history. Can you name any female Caliphs? What percentage of scholars throughout history have been female?

can you name me any female presidents in U.S history? and I actually insist on your answering that one
also it might benefit you to do minor research before writing for instance on أروى بنت أحمد بن محمد بن جعفر بن موسى الصليحي الإسماعيلية‎ ʾArwà bint ʾAḥmad bin Muḥammad bin Jaʿafar bin Mūsà and here's a bunch more:

and then come survey Muslim women on how many of them actually want to govern a state. There were plenty of scholars we don't take a head count, don't get caught up in your statistics it doesn't and hasn't made a viable argument for you thus far!

The sample size was 2000 people and I could not find the margin of error, but I may not have looked hard enough. Here is a link to the poll which was taken shortly after the London bombings. It was done by the Pew Research Center, which you can research easily enough, is a non-partisan fact finding group that monitors many things including religious attitudes around the world.

I can already find three or four confounders including the date of the poll so as stated try to do some minor research before you write!

The community where I live has a fairly large Muslim population and women often come into my business wearing the hijab. Never have I seen anyone harass them anywhere, and I know that if anyone did that others around them would defend her. I have no doubt of this.

And I have stated I am not interested in your personal experience or your experience as a host to a hijabi!

best,

 

[titus]

It is easier to re-write history after most trace evidence of it had been wiped out by the Inquisition isn't it? Entire libraries, infrastructures not to mention people burnt and tortured can indeed be summed up in your 'whitewash'!

Who is rewriting history? Or are you claiming that such things did not happen? I find it ironic that you say Freedom of Speech should be about facts, then you ignore them.

If you scroll back you'll find that it was your atheist pal who introduced the term not my person. If you want to argue rules of an 'Islamic state' then won't you pretty please find one that's actually in existence and then come back to have this discussion.

I am well aware of who introduced the term, and I was agreeing with you that it is not the correct one. Read more carefully.

can you name me any female presidents in U.S history? and I actually insist on your answering that one
also it might benefit you to do minor research before writing for instance on أروى بنت أحمد بن محمد بن جعفر بن موسى الصليحي الإسماعيلية‎ ʾArwà bint ʾAḥmad bin Muḥammad bin Jaʿafar bin Mūsà and here's a bunch more:

No women have been president, but that is not a legal requirement. It is a requirement for the Caliph to be a male, though, according to the Sunni scholars I have seen who wrote on the subject.

And I have stated I am not interested in your personal experience or your experience as a host to a hijabi!

It is good that the response was not directed to you then. It was directed towards Aprender who juxtaposed the poll results with his personal experiences. Again, please read more carefully.

 

[جوري]

Who is rewriting history? Or are you claiming that such things did not happen? I find it ironic that you say Freedom of Speech should be about facts, then you ignore them.

If you desire a thread on Andalusia, then by all means start one and let's have a review!

I am well aware of who introduced the term, and I was agreeing with you that it is not the correct one. Read more carefully.

I have read and including the rant that followed on the alleged Islamic states.. your point being? If you wanted to bring this to your colleague's attention why not by PM or directly quote him instead of using it in a reply to me?

No women have been president, but that is not a legal requirement. It is a requirement for the Caliph to be a male, though, according to the Sunni scholars I have seen who wrote on the subject.

Indeed none have been and even if no documentation for or against- I doubt very much your folks would want to see the 'free world' led by a woman president.
I have already listed many women in government even leading in battles and running states against the requirement. You did ask for one, banking on the fact that there would be none no? So please be forth coming and admit that you mouth off on things that you clearly have no knowledge of or haven't researched accurately!
Now my last request was if you surveyed Muslim women on whether or not they have a desire to be caliphs? Even the most just of caliphs were assassinated so what kind of job is that exactly for a woman? I always enjoyed leadership positions, my own company and council and I am not a pacifist by any means and like to consider myself fearless by the grace of God- I'd still much rather be on a battlefield than running a caliphate with what that entails.

It is good that the response was not directed to you then. It was directed towards Aprender who juxtaposed the poll results with his personal experiences. Again, please read more carefully.

I'd advise you of the same for starters aprender is a female!

best,

 

[titus]

I have read and including the rant that followed on the alleged Islamic states.. your point being? If you wanted to bring this to your colleague's attention why not by PM or directly quote him instead of using it in a reply to me?

I assumed you could understand who it was directed towards based on context. My mistake.

Indeed none have been and even if no documentation for or against- I doubt very much your folks would want to see the 'free world' led by a woman president.

I am sure you would have said the same thing about a black men a few years ago, and in that instance you would have been wrong also. Remember, Obama barely got the party nod in '08 because of Hillary Clinton.

You did ask for one, banking on the fact that there would be none no? So please be forth coming and admit that you mouth off on things that you clearly have no knowledge of or haven't researched accurately!

Please read my posts before replying to them.

I asked you to name 1) a female Caliph and 2) the percentage of female Islamic scholars in history. You answered neither.

The fact is that the Caliph answer is and and always will be zero, and the percentage is extremely small. In fact they are almost non existent over the last couple of hundred years.

I'd advise you of the same for starters aprender is a female!

Then I apologize if Aprender was offended, I did not look up her sex before replying.

 

[Logikon]

Freedom of Speech has it's limits in every society.

Yes that is true.

Something that offends in one society may not offend in another. This is the point Muslims have missed. We can't make a law in New Zealand to satisfy Muslims in Yemen!
.

 

[جوري]

I assumed you could understand who it was directed towards based on context. My mistake.

Your context changes and your texts decrease when at a loss for a seasoned reply!
Do you notice how we drift further and further away from topic every time to your feelings, your understandings, your insight, your historical sources (which btw) fail you every time!

I am sure you would have said the same thing about a black men a few years ago, and in that instance you would have been wrong also. Remember, Obama barely got the party nod in '08 because of Hillary Clinton.

woulda or did - show me I have no recollection? at any rate it doesn't really matter who takes the seat so long as it is the AIPAC running the show behind the scene.
You wanted a one and I have given you more than one female Muslim ruler, the rest if really you struggling to get out of a hole you dug for yourself- Don't also rant about Islamic states per your previous post and then get so upset to find out that no such thing exists to support your argument.

Please read my posts before replying to them.

I asked you to name 1) a female Caliph and 2) the percentage of female Islamic scholars in history. You answered neither.

I have given you a number of female rulers the name caliph is irrelevant to the matter, some caliphs weren't called caliphs it didn't detract from their governance or significance historically! per your other query, percentages would be too numerous no one takes a head count except idiots who want to know how many scientists are atheists or religious how many women are blah so they can pound on their chest when writing like it loans the empty rhetoric credence. Statistics are meaningless if you want books on women scholars in Islam I'll be glad to provide you with a few references!

The fact is that the Caliph answer is and and always will be zero, and the percentage is extremely small. In fact they are almost non existent over the last couple of hundred years.

see previous response and if you want to make a point at least make sure you're in a position to make such a point. I have already listed several female rulers under Islam. We can't help it if you are having difficulty interchanging context!

best,

 

[Aprender]

The community where I live has a fairly large Muslim population and women often come into my business wearing the hijab. Never have I seen anyone harass them anywhere, and I know that if anyone did that others around them would defend her. I have no doubt of this.

Yes, because you as a MUSLIM WOMAN are in their lives 24/7 and know everything that happens to them everywhere they go when they travel the around the country. I would feel more comfortable as a Muslim woman in a place like Minnesota where there is a larger Muslim community than I would in a place like Alaska. But that doesn't mean that when I go to other places or other counties where Muslims are few that I wouldn't have those fears. You seem to also know just because you're around some Muslims from time to time and because of that brief moment in time that you're with them or observe a few moments of their lives, you now have magically found a way to understand their every thought and their every fear.

Get off your high horse. It's disgusting. Consider for a moment that the poll doesn't paint the whole picture and I would really appreciate it if you would stop acting like you know what it's like to be one of us because you don't get it and you never will.

It was done by the Pew Research Center, which you can research easily enough, is a non-partisan fact finding group that monitors many things including religious attitudes around the world.

Thanks. Most people here remember next to nothing about the London bombings by the way. It's not something that sticks in their brains. The only thing that rings in their ears is 9/11. Consider proximity, the time frame and the size of the sample and once again, it sounds very unlikely and skewed to me that 55% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Muslims. If anything a more accurate statement would be that they are uncertain of Muslims and not really sure what to think right now. I'll have to look at that report in more depth but to compare something from 7 years ago to the political climate and experiences that we have now given the major political events that have occurred since then isn't connecting with reality.

I know what the Pew Research Center is by the way. I've conducted plenty of polls and research for organizations in the past. I have a couple of degrees from universities in the United States, which is where I was born and raised by the way, but thanks for trying to "educate me" about myself and the experiences of other Muslim women in America from your small lens.

Understand that I am in no way trying to attack you. I just don't appreciate it when people like you who don't know what it's like make sweeping generalizations based from a very narrow scope. It's not fair to do so and I don't think you're in any position to know what it's like for the average Muslim woman or man living in America.

 

[Aprender]

It is good that the response was not directed to you then. It was directed towards Aprender who juxtaposed the poll results with his personal experiences.

I'm not a man. And did you not do the same with the poll by giving a few positive experiences that you've witnessed in your hometown? I have seen some positive experiences too. Even a woman come up to a friend of mine and said to her "Thank you for having the courage to practice your religion." Which there is something in that statement alone that is very telling...

But I still know that the favorable view that you speak of is not the reality. We still have a lot of work to do.

 

[titus]

Understand that I am in no way trying to attack you in any way. I just don't appreciate it when people like you who don't know what it's like make sweeping generalizations based from a very narrow scope. It's not fair to do so and I don't think you're in any position to know what it's like for the average Muslim woman or man living in America.

Yet you make sweeping generalizations about the non-Muslim Americans. You cannot have it both ways.

Yes, I think that if women go out in a hijab in the US and feel there is a high degree of danger then they are mistaken. The facts do not bear it out, and from what I know of non-Muslim Americans they have little reason to. Tell me, who do you think most non-Muslim Americans would be most honest with when speaking about Muslims, you or myself? When it comes to how non-Muslims feel about Muslims I have a bigger lens in many respects than you do. Yet I have not seen this high degree of hatred that you and others seem to feel exists among the majority of Americans although they have no reason to hide it from me.

If this hatred existed in the levels that you claim then there would be no way it could hide from me, yet I see and hear none of it. Other than isolated incidents can you show me any reason why hijab women should be afraid? Can you show me any statistics on this?

And I will not try to educate you on how Muslim women feel when you can reciprocate by telling me how non-Muslim Americans feel.

 

[جوري]

How does a topic about freedom of speech end up being about sweeping generalizations over hijabis.. Honestly does every thread have to be meandered to your agenda?

 

[titus]

And did you not do the same with the poll by giving a few positive experiences that you've witnessed in your hometown?

Yes, I have no problem with relating personal experiences, it is another poster that has the issue.

I'm not a man

Yes, again I apologize, that was my mistake.

And please don't misunderstand my tone, I am not trying to attack you either.

 

[titus]

How does a topic about freedom of speech end up being about sweeping generalizations over hijabis.. Honestly does every thread have to be meandered to your agenda?

No, only the ones I post on. Please go on more about Andalusia.

 

[جوري]

No, only the ones I post on. Please go on more about Andalusia.

Take out some books from the library then and do some homework so you won't end up like up there with a 'name me a one' type thing and then impressing on us how we don't understand what you meant.

best,

 

[titus]

I have no doubt you don't understand what I mean. Please, grab a book, read about Maimonides and the great fun he had growing up as a Jew in the enlightened period of Muslim Spain. Read about Granada. Please. Then tell us how that system is an improvement over things such as Freedom of Speech in the United States today.

 

[Aprender]

When it comes to how non-Muslims feel about Muslims I have a bigger lens in many respects than you do.

Tell me how? Because I haven't been a Muslim for very long but as soon as I entered into this faith the way people treated me changed drastically and not always in a good way. I've been a non-Muslim for a lot longer than I have been a Muslim so I don't see how your lens is any "larger" than mine in many respects.

Yet you make sweeping generalizations about the non-Muslim Americans. You cannot have it both ways.

I did not make a sweeping generalization about non-Muslim Americans. So because I'm telling you that many Muslim American women that I know and have talked to, even before I entered into Islam, do worry about the negative attitudes that non-Muslims might have toward them in this country, that automatically means that I think that every person who is not a Muslim in America has a negative attitude toward non-Muslims and a "high level of hatred"? I'm talking about reality here, not old poll results.

I think you're getting me confused with some other posts that you read on this forum. Would it kill you to consider that everything in this world isn't as black and white as you want it to be?

Where did I say it was a "high degree of hatred"? I've said that on the 9/11 anniversary walking out of your house and being met with hateful stares isn't exactly fun and most of those experiences I mentioned above didn't happen to me by the way but to other Muslim women that I know. I said if anything many Americans might be uncertain about how to feel about Muslim Americans and that when many Muslim women walk outside of their homes we don't always expect to be greeted with smiles and courtesy but that doesn't mean I think that all non-Muslims hate us. I just don't think a majority of people in American have a "favorable" view of Muslims. I have had experiences of where non-Muslim Americans have treated me with respect and dignity outside of my family but I've also had many experiences where people have not, including law enforcement, and so have other sisters that I know. Just because they don't make it into the news or no one asks those questions for polls doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This is life.

If this hatred existed in the levels that you claim then there would be no way it could hide from me, yet I see and hear none of it.

Yes, because you seem to think that you know and see everything and if it doesn't happen around you, it's not a valid concern. Please, get off the high horse and try and understand another perspective for just one moment. I don't think many Muslim women or Muslims in general confide in you about their deepest concerns in this life and things that worry them about the future on a regular basis.

Tell me, who do you think most non-Muslim Americans would be most honest with when speaking about Muslims, you or myself?

Me. Because when I am out in public or in classes at the university and they have questions about Muslims, they ask me. Why? Because I am a Muslim. And a lot of times they begin with "Sorry, I don't meant to offend you but I've always wondered why..." And if I can answer the questions they have, I do. And I thank them for asking me, instead of someone like you who is far from a scholar of Islam and I am not either but I think I know what it's like to be a Muslim much more than you do and I know what it's like to be a Muslim woman in America which is something that you will never know.

I'm glad that you think the community that you live in is very caring and kind to Muslims and that's wonderful. But I'm just letting you know that these feelings of acceptance are not as widespread as you think. If everything was so "favorable", organizations like CAIR wouldn't have to exist in this country and constantly try to decry the mistakes that Muslims make in the Middle East by holding press conferences that only get 2 seconds of coverage on local news stations...or none at all.

As I said in the last post, we have a long way to go.

 

[Ramadhan]

I think that we need limits on offending people, yes, but I don't know where they should go to be honest.

So, this begs the question:
Whose standard of "offending/offensive" do we use? Yours or mine?

I don't, however, like the idea that we may get to a situation where, prior to publishing something, people are trying to work out if their material will offend if they publish. That doesn't seem healthy to me. I personally believe that no subject should be "taboo" generally.

This contradicts your previous statement.

 

[Ramadhan]

I find that VERY hard to believe. What was the sample size? 20 people? The target audience for that poll? What was the margin of error? What exactly is "favorable"? I would like to see the questions asked in that poll. I'll believe that when Muslim women who wear the hijab can walk out of their houses in America without fear of being verbally attacked and harassed. And when mothers on public trains don't move their children away from a Muslim woman because she thinks her very presence on the train is going to somehow harm her child. Or when a Muslim woman can walk on a university campus without wondering if everyone is staring and laughing at her. Or when a Muslim woman can walk into a place of employment with her hijab on and get the job without being dismissed for simply being a Muslim.

I agree with you.

Just a casual glance at all vile comments made in youtube/yahoo/etc about any uploaded videos/articles/etc about Islam/muslim is enough to contradict that 55% of americans have favorable views of muslims.