Is There Such a Thing As Freedom Of Speech?

I cannot speak for egypt, but in Indonesia (where I live), the largest muslim country on earth, christians/catholics/buddhists/hindus also enjoy equal protection as muslims and we can't insult other religions in public spheres.
I meant social behaviours, rather than Government legislation. Your situation in Indonesia sounds good however. I have travelled extensively in Indonesia in the past but unfortunately it was during the the time of the Asian financial crisis which caused. In fact I narrowly missed getting caught in a supermarket fire in Jakarta, which killed a number of people. Despite that i enjoyed the visit immensely!
 
It's the reverse situation from many other countries, such as Egypt, where the mainstream religion is the one that gets the protection from this kind of social give-and-take.

You know this because?
Mainstream religion is attacked daily on the satellite channels and by paid trolls who constantly harangue Mursi's and on every word.
If there's protection/respect to mainstream religion or not. It stems from the religious values themselves not some sort of amendment or curb on their freedoms.
During the haganah/Irgun/ Stern gang mobs that torpedoed through Egypt/ Iraq etc. to kidnap or instil fear in the Jewish population there to create a rift and doubt in their identity, they were not largely successful in some areas and as such people refused to go colonize Palestine knowing full well who is behind the schism. One is a very famous Jewess Lila Murad, who eventually converted to Islam!
Don't give yourself the right to speak on behalf of other countries. You barely know what is going on in yours with regards to human rights and minority rights.

best,
 
but in Indonesia (where I live)
I once saw a documentary that visited the Aceh district in part. I would argue the way un-islamic attire is imposed on the young population in general by their Sharia police or what it is called, does not equally respect all faiths/believes. It is a huge bias towards one religion and to a lesser degree this seems to be similar in many Muslim nations.
The point Independent wanted to make (I think) is that the religion being part of establishment and having big influence in decision making in and of itself is regarded as bad in most Western countries. Whenever one religion or ideology is granted too much respect it has caused terrible political shifts. Mockery and satire is always the first and last line of defense and therefore is granted a special protection. When you already cannot express different opinions in certain settings like politics, public events or universities, the satirical stage is still one that can talk freely. And especially all that is established is being bombarded the most.

Historically in Europe there has been a centuries long battle between church and state. Somewhere down the road all heretics were driven out to America. The US first then created a new system which slowly affected Europe too.

The point is in the west, satire is seen as something holy itself for its educational purpose and it requires freedom. The stronger one is, the more self-confident, the more established the more it/he/she has to suffer mockery, because it can and it should.
This I think also touches on one misunderstanding between the Muslim world and its interpretation of some mainstream western reactions to the protest. Muslim's think their is a lack of respect for their religious feelings but I think it is more a lack of respect for Muslims themselves as in they behave too insecure. In the big globalized world Islam is not some little minority but very much established as the second biggest religion and there is the expectation that they ought to have enough confidence in themselves and their religion to handle some youtube video. It is seen as weakness to be too severely insulted. This is most obvious in the reactions of politicians who sometimes react differently to all the blows they get. If they pay it too much heed, it is seen as a lack of self-confidence. In Europe we grant protection to the weak, the minorities, those that cannot fend for themselves, but the strong, those that have numbers need to fend for themselves. (This is the sentiment of society in general not necessarily perfectly mirrored in every law)

This is why the cry for outlawing this video on a big scale is laughed at. Because of the strange confrontation between.
We demand more respect. Outlaw this stuff.
and
Laws will protect you but not get you respect.

It is not like everybody thinks religious feelings aren't important but that minority protections for believes and opinions are neither necessary nor possible and respect cannot be earned by declaring oneself as a minority worthy of protection. The more stupid or slanderous an insult is like this movie the more it encourages this line of thinking. If the faith is so weak that it cannot handle this ridiculous nonsense, how should we respect it if they don't themselves. Hurt honor doesn't get much consideration at all.
Honor and respect one gets for different things in different cultures. I.e. to me the idea of demanding respect is completely alien. Respect in anti authoritarian society is earned not ever given. It cannot even be given.

I maybe mistaken but from listening to many Muslims it seems to me they want to be respected not simply tolerated. IMO there is a huge difference and only the latter can be insured by law.

This reinforces the point I made in a different thread in this World Affairs section: Just because you ignore the insults that others make against your religion, does not mean it will go away.
Sure the insults won't disappear if one ignores them especially not in the web where there is at least one fool for anything. But they appear less often. The idea that globally movies like innocence of Muslims can be made to disappear is illusory, impossible unless we start a police state.

I think it comes down to a few choices. Should religion be some kind of minority that must be protected from harm? Or is it a worldview capable to take a challenge on its own merits?
The existence of insulting material on the web is if already too insulting just something that is very hard to contain. In a democracy it exists to a certain point and from there one must find a way to deal with it.
In fact, there was a restaurant in Jakarta opened 3-4 years ago called Buddha Bar (yes, a franchise from the famous one in Paris) whose owners were two muslims, daughters from previous Jakarta's governor and Indonesian president. The restaurant also had a huge buddha statue in its premise.
This caused upsets among buddhists community and they protested. Finally the restaurant had to remove the statue and change its name.
How does one define the public sphere. A youtube movie is something that one has to actively pull down from the web. A building in the public that is immovable in your neighborhood is something different. Do you watch a TV Channel that you can switch at the press of a button or are you complaining about a poster you have to pass every day on your way to work. The knowledge of existing insulting material is not the same IMO as inescapable insulting material.
Opening a strip club in some places won't work either.
 
The point Independent wanted to make (I think) is that the religion being part of establishment and having big influence in decision making in and of itself is regarded as bad in most Western countries.
That's true, although it wasn't the point I was (not very effectively) making. I meant simply that in the UK over the last 50 years there is a strong tradition of attacking the establishment in general. Not just the religious establishment, but also in politics, the legal profession, and many other areas. Christianity is seen as part of the establishment so it gets attacked, whereas other religions have been relatively ignored. It's only recently that comedians, for instance, have started to tackle Islamic subjects. The comedians that do so are almost always either Muslims themselves or from an Islamic background. If a WASP were to take on that subject, the audience might see them as prejudiced and therefore cease to find them funny.

In other words it's not just what gets said, it's who says it.
 
^^ those statements are loaded up to and including how you wrapped it up. You already presuppose that Muslims aren't WASPS

. I would argue the way un-islamic attire is imposed on the young population in general by their Sharia police or what it is called, does not equally respect all faiths/believes. It is a huge bias towards one religion and to a lesser degree this seems to be similar in many Muslim nations.
'un-islamic' attire is imposed?


The point Independent wanted to make (I think) is that the religion being part of establishment and having big influence in decision making in and of itself is regarded as bad in most Western countries. Whenever one religion or ideology is granted too much respect it has caused terrible political shifts. Mockery and satire is always the first and last line of defense and therefore is granted a special protection. When you already cannot express different opinions in certain settings like politics, public events or universities, the satirical stage is still one that can talk freely. And especially all that is established is being bombarded the most.
The question here isn't making fun of religion for some political reason to do with the religion itself or even how its adherents behave or to highlight what needs to be changed. Rather, it is created for the sole purpose to provoke, cause ire and establish a base political agenda by which the aggressors convince the masses that one group of people are akin to animals and it is OK to dehumanize them and call them savages!

 
منوة الخيال;1542752 said:
You already presuppose that Muslims aren't WASPS
'WASP' is an American term that stands for 'White Anglo Saxon Protestant'. That's what it means.
 
منوة الخيال;1542757 said:
I know what the term means and can assure you we've several 'WASPS' converting weekly..
I fail to see what is 'loaded' about using the term 'Protestant' when I want to refer to a 'Protestant'.
 
I meant simply that in the UK over the last 50 years there is a strong tradition of attacking the establishment in general.

I have read/heard several theories recently, which attributed the beginning of this trend to the two World Wars (especially the first one), which saw so many young men die in the trenches - after having been told (by the Government and condoned/reinforced but the Church) to fight (and die) for King and Country.
There was barely a community left in this country, which was not affected in some way ... and that left people cynical and suspicious of those in power and authority.
 
'WASP' is an American term that stands for 'White Anglo Saxon Protestant'. That's what it means.
People don't use the term to solely refer to protestants:

The term WASP has many meanings. In sociology it reflects that segment of the U.S. population that founded the nation and traced their heritages to...Northwestern Europe. The term...has become more inclusive. To many people, WASP now includes most 'white' people who are not ... members of any minority group.[SUP][7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant


[/SUP] and as stated such folks enter Islam every day. We've quite a few on board in fact. Basically amongst other things that can be construed from the above is to marginalize Muslims to a group of well non-whites, arabs or whatever is in your mind per regard to Islam.
The rest of your statements are neither historically accurate or have a semblance of truth. Since the inception of Islam it has been the church's job if not the west to ban, make fun, plain lie as a form of combating its appeal. The method simply evolves with the time but same principal exists.



best,
 
منوة الخيال;1542764 said:
The term WASP has many meanings.
However many meanings it has, 'Muslim' isn't one of them.

To make it easier for you, what I said was that if a member of the UK dominant social group were to stand up and make jokes about a minority (in this case Muslims) then it might be seen by the audience as prejudiced, not funny. Whereas if a Muslim is the one making the jokes, it's ok (always assuming they're funny). Same if it was a Jew. Same as if it were a handicapped person and so on.

How you manage to take offense out of this statement is something known only to yourself.
 
However many meanings it has, 'Muslim' isn't one of them.
Does ancestry change simply because you embraced a new religion?

To make it easier for you, what I said was that if a member of the UK dominant social group were to stand up and make jokes about a minority (in this case Muslims) then it might be seen by the audience as prejudiced, not funny. Whereas if a Muslim is the one making the jokes, it's ok (always assuming they're funny). Same if it was a Jew. Same as if it were a handicapped person and so on.
Maybe you should think of how you word things perhaps cross reference them historically as to not always work on your intentions with subsequent posts. Also with regards to liberties you take to speak about countries to which you've never been and your knowledge of seems to reflect your nightly news.



How you manage to take offense out of this statement is something known only to yourself.
I don't invest emotions or offense with any random forummers..

best,
 
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منوة الخيال;1542768 said:
Does ancestry change simply because you embraced a new religion?

I would suggest that a white Anglo-saxon Protestant who reverts to Islam continues to be white and Anglo-saxon, but ceases to the a Protestant.
He kind of changes from a WASP to a WASM.
 
I guess.. but I have problems with such terms. For instance using the term anti-Semitic to refer to Jews, when less than 5% of Jews are Semitic of origin. In fact the term should be used to describe your average Palestinian, rather than your average Israeli Jew..

best,
 
I would suggest that a white Anglo-saxon Protestant who reverts to Islam continues to be white and Anglo-saxon, but ceases to the a Protestant.
He kind of changes from a WASP to a WASM.
Yes, yes, yes! All of which is irrelevant to my original post because I'm not talking about converts anyway. This is like walking through treacle.
 
Yes, yes, yes! All of which is irrelevant to my original post because I'm not talking about converts anyway. This is like walking through treacle.
We like to get side-tracked around here, Independent.

I didn't even read the whole thread but jumped right in. So mea culpa! ;D
 
Yes, yes, yes! All of which is irrelevant to my original post because I'm not talking about converts anyway. This is like walking through treacle.
The rest wasn't relevant either and neither factual- you simply fixated on one aspect. It is just your feelings at the end of the day and everyone has those.

best,
 

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