[Follower]

The following verse is vague, not event or time specific the way GOD was in the Old Testament.

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Literal:
So if the months the forbidden/sacred ended/passed, so fight/kill the sharers/takers of partners (with God) where/when you found them, and take/punish them and restrict/confine them and remain/be concerned and prepared/beset for them (in) every lookout/observatory, so if they repented, and kept up the prayers and gave/brought the charity/ purification , so free their way/path , that God (is) forgiving, merciful.

Not this one, it is GOD doing the judging and the punishing, and we know that GOD/Jesus does not like hypocrites.

(9:68) Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment.;

 

['Abd-al Latif]

The following verse is vague, not event or time specific the way GOD was in the Old Testament.

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Literal:
So if the months the forbidden/sacred ended/passed, so fight/kill the sharers/takers of partners (with God) where/when you found them, and take/punish them and restrict/confine them and remain/be concerned and prepared/beset for them (in) every lookout/observatory, so if they repented, and kept up the prayers and gave/brought the charity/ purification , so free their way/path , that God (is) forgiving, merciful.

Not this one, it is GOD doing the judging and the punishing, and we know that GOD/Jesus does not like hypocrites.

Read the verses before and after and it will make a lot more sense. Wow that really makes sense, doesn't it?

This is by Dr Zakir Naik

By Dr. Zakir Naik

If you read the Qur’an, this verse exists but it is quoted out of context.

The first few verses of Surah Tawbah before verse 5 speak about the peace treaty between the Muslims and Muskhriks (polytheists) of Makkah. This peace treaty was unilaterally broken by the Mushriks of Makkah. In verse no. 5 Allah (swt) gives them an ultimatum to put things straight in four months’ time, or else face a declaration of war. It is for the battlefield that Allah says “fight and slay the Mushriks (i.e. the enemies from Makkah) wherever you find them and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war”.

This verse is revealed and instructs the Muslims to fight in the battlefield and kill the enemy wherever you find them. But natural, any army general to boost up the morale of the soldiers and to encourage them will say “Don’t get scared, fight and kill the enemies, wherever you find them in the battlefield. Arun Shourie in his book ‘The World of Fatwas’ after quoting Surah Tawbah chapter 9 verse 5 jumps to verse 7. Any logical person will realize that verse 6 has the reply to his allegation.

Surah Tawbah chapter 9 verse 6 says:

“If any amongst the Mushriks (i.e. the enemies) ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the word of Allah and then escort him to where he can be secure”. (Al Qur’an 9:6)

Today the most merciful army general may tell his soldiers to let the enemy go, but Almighty Allah in the Qur’an says if the enemy wants peace do not just let them go but escort them to a place of security. Which army general in today’s day and age, or rather in the whole of recorded human history is ever known to have given such merciful instructions? Now will someone ask Mr. Arun Shourie why did he deliberately not quote verse 6?

http://www.islamawareness.net/Hinduism/ZakirNaik/part9.html

And as for this

(9:68) Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment.;

Definition of a hypocrite: a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

Should god not punish those who pretend to be one of His servants, while in reality he or she is trying to decieve god as well as those who are sincere in faith?

 

[جوري]

Follower.. You need to really focus at the hatred, war, destruction and the misogyny toward women in your bible first, before getting ahead of yourself..
I have no reservations sharing such biblical quotes with you, if you'd like.. or do you think none of us have picked up a bible? else 9:68 might just apply to you!

all the best

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

The following verse is vague, not event or time specific the way GOD was in the Old Testament.

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Literal:
So if the months the forbidden/sacred ended/passed, so fight/kill the sharers/takers of partners (with God) where/when you found them, and take/punish them and restrict/confine them and remain/be concerned and prepared/beset for them (in) every lookout/observatory, so if they repented, and kept up the prayers and gave/brought the charity/ purification , so free their way/path , that God (is) forgiving, merciful.

009:001 - 006:
YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:- Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate God (by your falsehood) but that God will cover with shame those who reject Him. And an announcement from God and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that God and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

So, basically when the treaty expires between the warring sides of the Muslims and the pagans, and after the sacred months have past, the Muslims were to attack them until the pagans were either defeated or surrender.

It also helps to understand a bit of history on this issue, so here's a link for you:

Ar-Raheeq Al-Maktoom (The Sealed Nectar)

 

[Follower]

Yes I understand the terms, I have read the verses before and after.

I'll try again - the Bible is time specific in regards to the timeline of man on earth. We see the commands from GOD of killing in the Old Testament, but that time has passed when we come to the New Testament.

Does you Quran reverse the ruling and condone the killing in the present time way into the future? It seems to me that it does.

No specific enemy is mentioned- it could be anyone that disagrees with another group.
Some Muslims consider Ahamdyia, Sufi pagans or maybe just non-Muslims?

Do you consider Jews pagans?

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

Yes I understand the terms, I have read the verses before and after.

I'll try again - the Bible is time specific in regards to the timeline of man on earth. We see the commands from GOD of killing in the Old Testament, but that time has passed when we come to the New Testament.

Does you Quran reverse the ruling and condone the killing in the present time way into the future? It seems to me that it does.

No specific enemy is mentioned- it could be anyone that disagrees with another group.
Some Muslims consider Ahamdyia, Sufi pagans or maybe just non-Muslims?

Do you consider Jews pagans?

The enemy is defined as being the pagans, who have made a treaty with the Muslims. I don't think it needs to be any more specific than that. Those to whom the revelation was sent to, certainly understood what it was talking about. God's commands to previous Prophets aren't really worded in a time-specific manner either, but everyone knows what they're talking about.

It doesn't matter what "some Muslims" think. What matters, is what is established by the Qur'an, and by the Sunnah of the Prophet.

 

[Follower]

OK, yes the Quran does reverse the rulling on killing and condones it today and in the future.

Thanks.

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

OK, yes the Quran does reverse the rulling on killing and condones it today and in the future.

Thanks.

It never reverses the ruling on killing. You either don't understand the ruling on killing, or you don't understand what the Qur'an says about it.

 

[Follower]

This was the last ruling on enemies before the Quran:

Luke 6
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.


With the following verse Allah has made mere men judge, jury and executioners.

9:29
Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society from a hand, and they are subservient/humiliated .

So different from this ruling:

Luke 6
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

[جوري]

Matthew 10:34
'Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth.'
Matthew 10:34
'I have not come to bring peace but a sword.'
Luke 12:49
'I have come to bring fire to the earth.'
Luke 12:49
'And how I wish it were blazing already
Luke 12:51
'Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but hostility!'

Matthew 10:35
'I have come to set son against father...
Matthew 10:35
'...daughter against mother...'

Matthew 10:35
'...and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law
Luke 14:26
'If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing
1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

I enjoy little snippets as much as the next guy =)

cheers

 

[Follower]

We are talking about the ruling on killing, not little snippets.

cheers

 

[جوري]

“Thou shall not kill” (Ex. 20:13), and yet in the very next chapter say, “Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death” (Ex. 21:17)?

how about this for starters?

 

[جوري]

I could post tons more by the way, given the little 'snippets' above which you don't seem to spare yourself from dropping steeply into for the sake of argument integrity, seem to contradict the peace and love that your God allegedly came to bring no and especially the disgusting views on women? further your own Christian history speaks a different message, surely you've heard of the crusades from then until now as sanctioned by your bible?
Don't be a hypocrite follower. No one likes lip-service
Your God allegedly came to bring war not peace as so states your bible.

So again you'd better reconcile your book firstly against its own contents and secondly in the face of history before treading into other grounds.

 

[Follower]

LOL! Skye we are talking about the time of Jesus and after.

Yes that is the commandment from GOD for all men for all time. I already explained that GOD did on occassion command killing of specific peoples Amalekites, Midianites, etc. at specific times. The people GOD ordered Israel to be killled were really, really bad.

Fast forward a bit and Jesus comes along and the command for us is no killing period, for any reason.

I am asking is the order for killing in the Quran past, present and future an on going command not time specific. Are there time constraints? It appears to me that it is vague.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

“Thou shall not kill” (Ex. 20:13), and yet in the very next chapter say, “Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death” (Ex. 21:17)?

how about this for starters?

I belive the original Hebrew goes thou shall not murder.

 

[alcurad]

I already explained that GOD did on occassion command killing of specific peoples Amalekites, Midianites, etc. at specific times. The people GOD ordered Israel to be killled were really, really bad.

care to expand upon above statement?

anyway, if you don't want to believe the verse in question was case specific, go ahead, bearing in mind that not a single muslim at the time of the prophet saw as you did, so now a few ignorant ones use it for whatever purpose and you go on and follow their understanding,,
not that there would be anything wrong with it even if it were vague in the first place-which it isn't- God is God, maybe he also knows that the people who are going to be killed according to said verse are really, really bad too. in the end, who are we to question God,,
the idea you uphold of god being love is quite amazing, christianity would not have spread as it did if not for the Romans butchering their way throughout Europe and elsewhere, where was the god/love then?

 

[جوري]

LOL! Skye we are talking about the time of Jesus and after.

There is no Judeo-Christian if you'll insist that God changes his mind, plus I have already shown you what your God said of not coming to bring peace but a sword. plus your own christian history!

Yes that is the commandment from GOD for all men for all time. I already explained that GOD did on occassion command killing of specific peoples Amalekites, Midianites, etc. at specific times. The people GOD ordered Israel to be killled were really, really bad.

really? because according to the bible the people of Israel were also really really bad, went off to worship a golden calf even from stolen gold and all...

Fast forward a bit and Jesus comes along and the command for us is no killing period, for any reason.

Wonder what Jesus would then say about the crusades, and all the wars thence in his name?

I am asking is the order for killing in the Quran past, present and future an on going command not time specific. Are there time constraints? It appears to me that it is vague.

It is actually rather easy as all you'd to do was read the Quran. in lieu of hiding behind what lying missionaries teach you

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 5:32] --whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.[/SIZE]




all the best

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

This was the last ruling on enemies before the Quran:

Luke 6
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.


With the following verse Allah has made mere men judge, jury and executioners.

9:29
Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society from a hand, and they are subservient/humiliated .

So different from this ruling:

Luke 6
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

There is no change here, as they're obviously not talking about the same thing. It's dishonest of you to cherry-pick verses regarding fighting in war from one book, and then cherry-pick verses regarding the etiquette of social behavior from another book, to support your thesis of the former being one of violence and hostility and the latter being one of peace and tolerance.

 

[Follower]

"the idea you uphold of god being love is quite amazing, christianity would not have spread as it did if not for the Romans butchering their way throughout Europe and elsewhere, where was the god/love then?"

These people were not following the teaching of Jesus. Anyone killing and not loving their neighbor/enemy is not following Jesus.

In Islam you are allowed to kill, Christians are not. The rulling was reversed.

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

In Islam you are allowed to kill, Christians are not. The rulling was reversed.

You're likely confusing "killing" with "murder". Neither Islam nor Christianity allow murder. However, Islam allows killing by the state as punishment for certain crimes, or in warfare, while Christianity is silent on those issues. The reason it is silent on those issues, is because it was already covered beforehand in the Torah, where there is plenty of God-sanctioned killing. This is further confirmed in the NT, where "Jesus" said he didn't come to change the law but to fulfill it.