Is this really the way GOD commands death?

[Uthman]

Greetings Thinker

Greetings Osman,

Thanks for the link I have read it. I have read similar stuff in the past and as a none Muslim, if I was tasked to choose a side in a debate for one side or the other, I believe I could better argue the case for the Quranites.

Did you watch the video provided in the thread as well?

Regards

Thinker you have not responded to this...

 

[جوري]

Perhaps someone scholarly can explain to Thinker and the rest, the difference between fiqh il3ibadat and figh il7ayat...

Jurisprudence when it comes to worship is a done a deal..
Jurisprudence as comes to every deal living, politics, economics dress (when in doubt ask the scholar) ijtihad is important to understand the point of a hadith and interpret them for every day living..

Also I'd refer to Suret Al'momenoon if I so desired to be a Quran only sect, as the question especially in factions is well explained in there...

There is no room for Islam to succumb to the errors of christianity, as it is the last train to hop on!

all the best

 

[Thinker]

Thinker you have not responded to this...

Osman,

Sorry but the video is over an hour long. It's difficult for me to sit listening to these things (it irritates the wife) unless you're telling me this one is REALLY VERY special?

 

[Uthman]

Osman,

Sorry but the video is over an hour long. It's difficult for me to sit listening to these things (it irritates the wife) unless you're telling me this one is REALLY VERY special?

Sorry, I thought it was just a 10 minute clip from the whole speech (which I have watched in it's entirety on Peace TV).

I would appreciate it, therefore, if you could make your case logically for the Qur'anites in an appropriate thread (if the admins/mods will allow it - I know this topic grows tiresome). I am interested to hear your argument.

 

[Thinker]

Sorry, I thought it was just a 10 minute clip from the whole speech (which I have watched in it's entirety on Peace TV).

I would appreciate it, therefore, if you could make your case logically for the Qur'anites in an appropriate thread (if the admins/mods will allow it - I know this topic grows tiresome). I am interested to hear your argument.

I know that the Quranite question has been discussed previously and I don't want to open it up again not least because I know a few get very irritated and although I have my views I don't think I'm going to change the views of anyone else and I really don't have a strong desire to attempt to change anyone's views on that subject. My argument on the subject is simple and simply based upon what I said above.

 

[Uthman]

I know that the Quranite question has been discussed previously and I don't want to open it up again not least because I know a few get very irritated and although I have my views I don't think I'm going to change the views of anyone else and I really don't have a strong desire to attempt to change anyone's views on that subject. My argument on the subject is simple and simply based upon what I said above.

Fair enough.

 

[Follower]

Gossamer skye- yes exactly, very good point!! "There is no room for Islam to succumb to the errors of christianity", as it is the last train to hop on!

Do you realize where, when, how the errors of Christianity crept in? When traditions ie., indulgences, purgatory, etc. of man was followed instead of the Holy Bible, scripture alone!! Having been there we see Islam repeating our history.

Then again the reason you need all the man-made tradition, man-made tasfir and man-made hadith:

Jesus was a messenger. Jesus was the messenger given clear signs. He was mentioned so much more then Mohammad how do you know that it isn't Jesus as messenger who you are supposed to follow. The Quran is just vaque enough that is a possibility.

024.056
YUSUFALI: So establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey the Messenger; that ye may receive mercy.
PICKTHAL: Establish worship and pay the poor-due and obey the messenger, that haply ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and obey the Messenger, so that mercy may be shown to you.

 

[جوري]

What man made tradition and man made hadith?
We don't FOLLOW any messengers, unlike you 'christ'ians we are not called 'Mohammedans' we are called Muslims, submitters to Allah swt on the path of Abraham the upright. Also in the Quran you should look it up!

You haven't read the Quran and frankly you are one of the most ignorant people I have encountered.. Al7mdlilah for the wisdom in the Quran which frankly bewilders me your useage of it to assert a nonpoint. Just last page I told you the Prophet Abraham is mentioned the Most 68 times as opposed to Jesus 20 times, if we are going merely by number don't you think Abraham would be the one we should 'follow' if the purpose of religion was to follow or worship men at all?...

I don't know it must be difficult for christians to use their brain?

all the best

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Gossamer skye- yes exactly, very good point!! "There is no room for Islam to succumb to the errors of christianity", as it is the last train to hop on!

Do you realize where, when, how the errors of Christianity crept in? When traditions ie., indulgences, purgatory, etc. of man was followed instead of the Holy Bible, scripture alone!! Having been there we see Islam repeating our history.

Then again the reason you need all the man-made tradition, man-made tasfir and man-made hadith:

Jesus was a messenger. Jesus was the messenger given clear signs. He was mentioned so much more then Mohammad how do you know that it isn't Jesus as messenger who you are supposed to follow. The Quran is just vaque enough that is a possibility.

Follower, you really do make me repeat my self so many times so please listen cearfully.

You - including Thinker - have largely misunderstood the concept of hadeeth and you make hadeeth what you want it to be as opposed to what it actually is.

Hadeeth is specific to the Messenger of Allah unless it is stated otherwise. Hadeeth is the sayings or approvals or actions of the Prophet and it's usually referred to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) unless the hadeeth is referring to his companions but when it is it's specifically mentioned to make a distinction. And when a hadeeth of a companion is reported it is unanimously agreed that he is doing such an action because he heard or saw it from the Prophet.

Now the need for hadeeth is obvious, the Qur'an wasn't revealed to a supernatural being it was revealed to a human being for human beings. Sometimes, as humans, we have questions or we may not understand something so we need to ask for clarifications. Other times you need to see someone as a role model to understand and comprehend correctly the texts which as a human one may not sometimes be able to grasp. One may also have different learning abilities and may need a teacher, and so on and so forth. This was the duty and role of Prophet Muhammad, to clearify and explain the verses and make the message clear.

Since Prophet Muhammad was a human being and as a human being he was going to die one day - as we all will - in order to preserve his teachings his companions documented everything he said or did or even intended to do in a type of documentation called 'hadeeth'. They were written down and preserved so the Islamic teachings can be passed down through the generations without any alerations or editions to the religion. And these very hadeeth have been passed down through the generations are with us today and one of the wisdom of this is that Allah in the Qur'an has promised us (muslims) to protect Islam from corruption (i.e. to be edited or altered by men) and one of the many ways Allah's promise has come to be true is through the preservation of hadeeth; even though Prophet Muhammad died over 1400 years ago.

Now as far as tafseer is concerned, it's the interpertation or explination of the Qur'an based on the hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad and his companions and the way they understood the religion because they are the ones to whom the Qur'an was revealed to, needless to say they are the ones who practiced Islam perfectly so it is their example that every muslim after them must follow.

Now since you are someone who has clearly has never read the Qur'an to understand the need for hadeeth I suggest you stop promoting jesus because jesus confirms the Prophethood of Muhammad in his own words in the very bible that you have in your hands today. So that logically means jesus was not the last and final messenger! While Muhammad is because he said so himself while confirming jesus and his message. So my advice is for you to read the Qur'an and keep Islam, Qur'an and hadeeth in it's context.

Open your mind and understand Islam the way it is and put all your preconditions aside. If your not going to then it's the same as you trying to pour water in a glass that's upside down. You can try all day long but you'll never fill up the glass.

 

[Thinker]

You - including Thinker - have largely misunderstood the concept of hadeeth and you make hadeeth what you want it to be as opposed to what it actually is.

I believe I understand what the hadith is, where it came from and the levels of authenticity. The problem (IMHO) isn’t a lack of understanding of the origin of hadith it how they are used.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Tafseer/Ulum/Denffor6.html#Principles

Above is a link posted in another thread which I have found most helpful. The document explains the process of Tafsir and the place the hadith has in that process.

I can understand why Muslims might look to the hadith as a helpful source of information in the process of tafsir, the problem is (IMHO) that Muslims make little or no distinction between hadith which explain unclear verses of the Qu’ran from any other hadith.

It seems to be that there is a belief that because God revealed the Qu’ran to Muhammad, he is no longer a man but acquired a status similar to a God in so far that he was super human, unable to make a mistake; unable to do any wrong and that everything he did and said should be copied. You can’t even say his name without following it with some words of veneration. Consequently the difference between the sunnah and the Qu’ran becomes blurred and you then get a pseudo tafsir process whereby the hadith are used to legitimise the sunnah and the sunnah are sued to legitimise the hadith. From that follows certain practices which can be used by others to ridicule Islam (e.g. plucking hair, not shaking hands etc., etc).

Skye went someway into suggesting that there is a difference in her post which said . . .

Perhaps someone scholarly can explain to Thinker and the rest, the difference between fiqh il3ibadat and figh il7ayat...

Jurisprudence when it comes to worship is a done a deal..
Jurisprudence as comes to every deal living, politics, economics dress (when in doubt ask the scholar) ijtihad is important to understand the point of a hadith and interpret them for every day living.

I am not sure about the words with numbers and I don’t see how ijtihad is relevant over any other form of critical analysis, again it seems to come down to its all a bit of a muddle but there’s a scholar somewhere who understand it all; to me that the same as Christians saying ‘have faith’ when they can’t explain something.

 

[burdenofbeing]

With all due respect you are assuming too much

There are many incidents where the ashab, the companions of the prophet, asked the prophet if what he revealed was from god, or his opinion. and their examples were always there for the muslims to see.

moving from there, assume that you believe in the prophet, and the religion brought through him. why in that position, would you think his acts were faulty? granted, you don't need to follow every sunnah. not all of them are musts. most of them are beneficial, and their distinction is clear. fard, and sunnah.

from what I could gather, you seem to be a decent fellow, and I thought these comments didn't befit you, or any objective, critical mind.

 

[Thinker]

With all due respect you are assuming too much

There are many incidents where the ashab, the companions of the prophet, asked the prophet if what he revealed was from god, or his opinion. and their examples were always there for the muslims to see.

moving from there, assume that you believe in the prophet, and the religion brought through him. why in that position, would you think his acts were faulty? granted, you don't need to follow every sunnah. not all of them are musts. most of them are beneficial, and their distinction is clear. fard, and sunnah.

from what I could gather, you seem to be a decent fellow, and I thought these comments didn't befit you, or any objective, critical mind.

Thank you for your kind remarks; I believe I am a decent fellow. I am sorry if I said something which you found offensive, I didn’t mean any offence. Looking back through what I wrote in an attempt to identify what might have been offensive I presume it was where I said matters which make Islam look ridiculous (plucking hair, not shaking hands etc., etc). I agree that my choice of words there are clumsy, I have changed it to . . .From that follows certain practices which can be used to ridicule Islam look ridiculous (e.g. plucking hair, not shaking hands etc., etc).

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

Gossamer skye- yes exactly, very good point!! "There is no room for Islam to succumb to the errors of christianity", as it is the last train to hop on!

Do you realize where, when, how the errors of Christianity crept in? When traditions ie., indulgences, purgatory, etc. of man was followed instead of the Holy Bible, scripture alone!! Having been there we see Islam repeating our history.

The difference, is that for a significant portion of the early history of Christianity, both the Bible and the various Christian traditions, were all esoterically maintained by an elitist priesthood.

There is no priesthood in Islam, and its traditions are generally all exoteric, so the problem isn't going to be the same.

Then again the reason you need all the man-made tradition, man-made tasfir and man-made hadith:

Jesus was a messenger. Jesus was the messenger given clear signs. He was mentioned so much more then Mohammad how do you know that it isn't Jesus as messenger who you are supposed to follow. The Quran is just vaque enough that is a possibility.

024.056
YUSUFALI: So establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey the Messenger; that ye may receive mercy.
PICKTHAL: Establish worship and pay the poor-due and obey the messenger, that haply ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and obey the Messenger, so that mercy may be shown to you.

How many times a Prophet is mentioned in the Qur'an is irrelevant. There is no substantial basis for making it an issue like that. It's an entirely whimsical concern, as is your suggestion with regard to it, which is also false, based on other verses of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an was not revealed to "Jesus", it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad, and was directed to him and his followers. "Jesus" is only mentioned in the same way the other previous Prophets are. Prophet Muhammad was the Messenger who recited and explained the Qur'an to the people, as well as followed it and exemplified it. Furthermore, we do not find any mention in the Qur'an, of Muslims being commanded to follow any of the previous revelations. What we find instead, is that it tells people to follow what is in itself, as well as the Messenger who it was revealed to.

 

[جوري]

I believe I understand what the hadith is, where it came from and the levels of authenticity. The problem (IMHO) isn’t a lack of understanding of the origin of hadith it how they are used.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Tafseer/Ulum/Denffor6.html#Principles

How are they used?

I can understand why Muslims might look to the hadith as a helpful source of information in the process of tafsir, the problem is (IMHO) that Muslims make little or no distinction between hadith which explain unclear verses of the Qu’ran from any other hadith.

How is it that we make no distinction, what do you base your opinion on? You seem to have already concluded on your own accord and not taken the opinion of actual practicing Muslims on the matter.

It seems to be that there is a belief that because God revealed the Qu’ran to Muhammad, he is no longer a man but acquired a status similar to a God in so far that he was super human,

Really.. Name me one Muslim that has elevated Mohammed to the status similar of God? The funny thing is, that is actually a western myth, given that such terms as mohammedans and Termagant as was the way hateful westerners described the 'Muslim God' are indeed a western invention not recognized by Muslims and are considered highly offensive but none of you whether x-Christians or not seem to be able to let go of your prejudices!

SURAH 18
(110) Say [O Prophet]: "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward [with hope and awe] to meeting his Sustainer [on Judgment Day], let him do righteous deeds, and let him not ascribe unto anyone or anything a share in the worship due to his Sustainer!"
​

unable to make a mistake; unable to do any wrong and that everything he did and said should be copied.

Funny you should say, given that Prophet Mohammed is lectured in the Quran for turning away from a blind man.. don't you think if any of the above were true he'd hide that the way the scribes hide whatever they don't like in their bibles, or that such verses as this from the Quran as the following:

9:97
The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and Hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger but Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

​

would be removed?

You can’t even say his name without following it with some words of veneration.

That is usually what people do to folks who have earned their title. At work I am addressed and paged as Dr. A.. it is NOT a veneration it is giving people due respect for that which they have earned.. Most people look very poorly on folks with poor manners in whatever form, Christians might be happy that their God jesus can be made into a bobble head toy or sold next to bratz dolls and that is their own business, BUT THOSE AREN'T THE MANNERS OF MUSLIMS!
do you wonder why many people consider westerners rude in general?
Go around surveying other cultures (eastern) they don't have to be Muslim go surveying Hindus or Janists or Shintos on their feelings of how you treat one another, they'll tell you one of the things they reflect on are that western folks throw their kids at 18 out and in turn get put into old folks home because they simply don't care.
You mistake having genuine good manners for veneration and that is too bad!

Consequently the difference between the sunnah and the Qu’ran becomes blurred and you then get a pseudo tafsir process whereby the hadith are used to legitimise the sunnah and the sunnah are sued to legitimise the hadith.

That is your own obtuse understanding and because it really doesn't matter what folks here write you, men and women, children converts born muslims alike you only wish to assert, not engage assuming you already know all there is to know with no interest to even scratch the surface!
In other words you come to scowl with displeasure but no interest really in why there are nearly two billions devout Muslims..

From that follows certain practices which can be used by others to ridicule Islam (e.g. plucking hair, not shaking hands etc., etc).

ridiculing is a sign of ignorance no more.. I was driving home the other day listening to the radio about some matching website, eharmony, match.com chemistry.com take your pick, and I chuckled to myself about how westerners constantly mock 'arranged marriages' .. well isn't that exactly what those services are providing for westerners? 'an arrangement'? why the hypocrisy then? I am not siding with either arranged or services I merely question the audacity of one group's alleged superior methods over another when it comes down to it, at least the first there are many people involved so that you don't end up with a random Joe that can leave you for dead without anyone knowing about it... I do digress, couple of posts ago I mentioned fiqh il3ibdat vs fiqh al7yat, I can tell you have skimmed or gave it a mere glance, given that you assert the same slogans over and over and even when quizzical you follow your questions with answers, thus leads me to believe you are not really interested in what anyone has to say.. People lose interest do you understand? It isn't that they can't provide you a rational response, it is that their rational response is objectionable to you on some level... and even as I often forgo whether something is conclusive or debatable, I cross to other cultures and ask you, do you find this Japanese practice as offensive and open to ridicule?

Do you take yourself to Japanese forums and protest with the same bravado the stupidity of bowing in lieu of a handshake?

Skye went someway into suggesting that there is a difference in her post which said . . .

Perhaps someone scholarly can explain to Thinker and the rest, the difference between fiqh il3ibadat and figh il7ayat...

Jurisprudence when it comes to worship is a done a deal..
Jurisprudence as comes to every deal living, politics, economics dress (when in doubt ask the scholar) ijtihad is important to understand the point of a hadith and interpret them for every day living.
!

I am not sure about the words with numbers and I don’t see how ijtihad is relevant over any other form of critical analysis, again it seems to come down to its all a bit of a muddle but there’s a scholar somewhere who understand it all; to me that the same as Christians saying ‘have faith’ when they can’t explain something.

The numbers are irrelevant given that I have given you the translation to the Arabic terms.. and that isn't what I am suggesting at all.. it has nothing whatsoever to do with faith, let me explain in simple terms so you don't go off concocting some cockamamie story.

Fiqh il'3ibada' has to do with how you perform worship.. There is no room for you or a shiite or a christian to question why do this way and not that way, why three prostration during this salat and four during that salat. Because the fact remains you don't object to why three or why four, you object that it is performed at all.. I am certain that if it were 6 you'd say why not 7 or 3, it the psychology of man and thus described by the way in the Quran chapter 18!
When I scrub to go into surgery, each of my fingers is divided into four planes, each plane must be scrubbed five times and again and again all the way above my elbows.. I don't go questioning the protocols, they are universal, I wouldn't be let any where near a pt. without and might be kicked out of the OR by a nurse of all people.. I don't set and ponder well why not four times or 6 times, or why bother all together since we'll end up gowned and gloved.. and this is man made protocol you dare not protest, then by what liberty do you protest God's law?
If you don't want to partake then don't, but you have no business ridiculing. You don't have to be a Muslim, the same way you don't have to be a surgeon!
the fiqh of ibada (jurisprudence of worship) It is a done deal--it isn't open to reinterpretation, save when you have an excuse and wish to know how far that extends in terms of your worship...

Now things to do with your every day dealings and wheeling are a different story and I have gone ahead and explained to you over plucking whether you are suffering from PCO and look abnormal or whether you are doing it to get the latest drag queen look, that aside and to get to a better example..

Say a cat pooped in your well where you and yours get water, now one school of thought might do some ijtihad and decide maybe after you have taken 12 pails of water out your water is suitable for drinking, another more strict school of thought or more lenient might assert, no take out 24 or 8 pails of water.. well modern day there is no room for pails-- now we have instrumentation and a board of health that can test your well for you and thus see whether the water is suitable for drinking or not.. the original ruling on the matter that is, water is contaminated by poop still stands, and you shouldn't drink contaminated water, but how you treat the problem is a completely different story, and you don't have to follow a particular mazhab or bother with pails if you can have a better approach. Now if you are a very poor village, and have no board of health, then you should still do some ijtihad to see how much of the water should be cured by whatever means to make the water suitable for drinking or see if there are other wells all together... was that easy enough?

There is nothing to do with having faith.. It has to do with working with the prophetic wisdom for every day living..

Hope that was clear!!!!!!!

all the best

 

[Follower]

Only Catholics truly follow tradition adamantly, I am not sure about the eastern orthodox church.

I have spoken with Muslims on forums that follow hadith closer then Quran. They simply did not know any Quranic verses and then confess that they follow hadith more closely! I have no idea what sect they were.

"Jesus" is only mentioned in the same way the other previous Prophets are." If you read the Quran you see that Jesus is unique in the Quran.

LOL! I am not being clear or you are missing my point. Because the Quran is vague: OK say someone picked up the Quran and there is no hadith and no one else to explain the message to him he could easily think that the messanger mentioned through out the Quran is Jesus.

He would be instructed by the Quran to go back to the Bible to answer any questions he has. Interestin here it is Book, the Holy Bible that is confirmed and not just the Torah and Gospel.

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

 

[جوري]

Only Catholics truly follow tradition adamantly, I am not sure about the eastern orthodox church.

?

I have spoken with Muslims on forums that follow hadith closer then Quran. They simply did not know any Quranic verses and then confess that they follow hadith more closely! I have no idea what sect they were.

Who are these mysterious Muslims?

Let's put this in terms you can understand..
Say your teacher assigns you Homer's odyssey, and you read it-- Now what? Do you skip on to the next book or is it usually followed by a class analysis and discussion?
That is what the hadith does for us, a discussion to explain that which needs an expansion for instance you are told to pray but hadith tells you how to pray . You don't know the first thing about islam and you genuinely ask the oddest questions, which have no relevance whatsoever!

"Jesus" is only mentioned in the same way the other previous Prophets are." If you read the Quran you see that Jesus is unique in the Quran.

LOL! I am not being clear or you are missing my point. Because the Quran is vague: OK say someone picked up the Quran and there is no hadith and no one else to explain the message to him he could easily think that the messanger mentioned through out the Quran is Jesus.

Firstly the Quran isn't vague, all you really need to do is actually read it!
2- I don't see how anyone could say Jesus is the one? Have you for instance read suret al'anbya? of course not, -- Say I go along with that premise, Mohammed mentioned 5, Jesus mentioned 20, but Abraham is mentioned 67+ times and referenced to often.. one would think if there is someone to 'follow' and I previousely explained to you, it isn't about following so or so it is about submitting to God, then someone with the least amount of intellect would still concede (if we are to go simply by your line of thinking) that Abraham is the one!

He would be instructed by the Quran to go back to the Bible to answer any questions he has. Interestin here it is Book, the Holy Bible that is confirmed and not just the Torah and Gospel.

There is no reference to your alleged bible in the Quran, there is a reference to the Injeel, obviousely something that is lost to you-- further I'll say ok I am game with that too, then what? why would anyone go backwards to the darkness of christianity? What does christianity tell you to actually do? All the rituals and forms of worship and covenant with God is already eradicated by your forefathers, do you want the whole world to dance around like loons to the organ and call that worship? the hilarity!

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

Indeed!

all the best

 

[burdenofbeing]

OK say someone picked up the Quran and there is no hadith and no one else to explain the message to him he could easily think that the messanger mentioned through out the Quran is Jesus.

By this post and many others I've seen in my short LI history, you are suggesting that muslims should go back to christianity because islam says so. Like the time you said if you were a muslim, you would then do some weird stuff and then be a christian. What kind of a logic is that? I mean really!

It's like saying if I believed in evolution I would then in turn believe in creation by instantaneous materialization. It doesn't make sense!

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

"Jesus" is only mentioned in the same way the other previous Prophets are." If you read the Quran you see that Jesus is unique in the Quran.

The Qur'an is still only recounting his story, like it recounts the stories of the other previous Prophets. It isn't addressed to him in the present tense, like it is to Prophet Muhammad.

LOL! I am not being clear or you are missing my point. Because the Quran is vague: OK say someone picked up the Quran and there is no hadith and no one else to explain the message to him he could easily think that the messanger mentioned through out the Quran is Jesus.

He would be instructed by the Quran to go back to the Bible to answer any questions he has. Interestin here it is Book, the Holy Bible that is confirmed and not just the Torah and Gospel.

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

Now, if you had read the whole Qur'an, you'd realize that it tells people to follow what is in itself, as well as the Messenger who it was revealed to.

003.144:
Muhammad is no more than a Messenger, and indeed (many) Messengers have passed away before him. If he dies or is killed, will you then turn back on your heels (as disbelievers)? And he who turns back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah, and Allah will give reward to those who are grateful.

005.019:
Oh you, the people of the book! After a long pause between messengers, there has now come to you Our messenger who clarifies matters for you. Lest you should say, “No bearer of good news and no warner had ever come to us!” The bearer of good news and the warner has indeed come to you now! Allah has the power to do all things.

033.040:
Muhammad, is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the last of the prophets. Allah is very well Aware of all things!

047.002:
But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

048.029:
Muhammad, is the messenger of Allah. He and his followers are tough on the unbelievers; but they are kind to each other. You see them bowing, and falling down prostrate (before Allah) seeking His favors and His acceptance. The distinctive effect of prostrating (before their Creator) is apparent on their faces. Such is their description in the Torah. About them, the Gospel quotes the parable, “It is as if the seed is sown in the field. In time it sprouts and sends up a tiny green shoot. Then, it becomes strong and stout, and stands on its stalk. It delights the sower and enrages the unbelievers.” Allah promises forgiveness and a tremendous reward to those of the believers who perform the righteous deeds.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

LOL! I am not being clear or you are missing my point. Because the Quran is vague: OK say someone picked up the Quran and there is no hadith and no one else to explain the message to him he could easily think that the messanger mentioned through out the Quran is Jesus.

He would be instructed by the Quran to go back to the Bible to answer any questions he has. Interestin here it is Book, the Holy Bible that is confirmed and not just the Torah and Gospel.

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

Qur'an isn't vague, it's only vague to one who hasn't actually read it like yourself for example.

The verse you quoted only means that the previous books Attest to the Truth of the Qur'an. Not what your making it out to be!

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Another thread which doesn't seem to be getting anywhere as everyone seems to be repeating them selves so i'm closing it.

:threadclo