Isa: "Great Commandments" as Essential to True Muslim Faith

[siam]

God's will=Right belief that inspires right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations
..........translated into islamic concepts would be.....

Right belief = Tawheed (God is ONE)
right intentions = Taqwa (Love of God/God awareness)
right actions = Adl (in justice)
benefit of all of God's creations = trusteeship (God-given responsibility)

Muslim scholars have eleborated on each of these concepts (and others)....as you can see, from the formula----it is a more nuanced and sophisticated thought process that may seem simple on the surface but encapsulates a lot..........

 

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
It is good that you are looking for "common ground" on which to build dialogue, and I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm----but trying to teach Muslims about the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a bit misguided---not to mention, arrogant----we already KNOW what Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught----ITS IN THE QURAN!!

Ok. I'm not trying to be arrogant...or teach people about Jesus per se. I'm just trying to see if the logic of my thinking works. About the Great Commandments, that is. Please forgive if it seems otherwise.

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Siam:
I would humbly suggest that perhaps you try to learn about Islam/Muslims and find "common ground" that way. ---You might want to start with the most important concept in islam---which is Tawheed. All other concepts flow from this one. Therefore, "right belief"=Tawheed. Once tawheed is understood correctly, right intentions and right actions can flow properly through it......

Siam, isn't Tawheed pretty much the same concept as the Jewish Shema? (The Lord is One) Christians are bound to the Shema by being within the "Great Commandments"

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Siam:
There is only ONE God, the Unique, Uncreated creator of all creation. Therefore, in order to show him respect (God is genderless), we respect all his creation. This means, all our interactions with God's creation must be with the intention not to cause harm.

There is only One God---therefore all human beings, regardless of our religious affiliation or geographical location, are all equally God's creations. In this sense, we are all one family/brotherhood. When we interact with our fellow brothers and sisters with compassion and mercy (2 of God's attributes mentioned repeatedly in the Quran) out of "love of God" because they are equally his creation, we are confirming "right belief"/tawheed.

There is only One God----the earth and its rescources are also God's creations. These must be respected, and used wisely and with consideration.

To do otherwise is to selfishly put our needs above God's will (Tawheed)........without "right belief"/tawheed---arrogance, selfishness, greed, miserliness,....etc become the rulers....."right belief"/Tawheed helps us look beyond our "self" and this flows into right intentions that lead to right actions..........

I don't see anything here that I disagree with. I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped.


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Siam:
by the way---not sure I would have used the word "singleminded"-----faith = The use of ones reason and intellect to arrive at conviction-----The Quran is against blind belief........

Heh. I don't mean blind faith, bro. I mean "singleminded" as in submitting to God's will was Jesus' "single" focus. That's the singlemindness I'm talking about.


***************************************
Siam:
Right belief = Tawheed (God is ONE)
right intentions = Taqwa (Love of God/God awareness)
right actions = Adl (in justice)
benefit of all of God's creations = trusteeship (God-given responsibility)


Sounds cool to me.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

 

[siam]

"Ok. I'm not trying to be arrogant"----my apologies then, I was mistaken.

Shema---Yes, Tawheed and Shema are similar. (Tawheed is more universal in scope)

It is great that Christians want to abide by the Shema. I hope they succeed because then they will be able to focus on the message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) instead of fighting/obsessing over Dogma?

If you feel that the Shema/Tawheed is something that is common to all 3 Abrahamic religions---there is nothing wrong with that logic----We Muslims simply go a step further and say that Tawheed is a message given to ALL mankind all over the world since the beginning---and is not confined to the Abrahamic religions alone.

An idea or philosophy by itself is simply words----it must be applied in order to be useful. Yet, a bunch of rules/laws will not work given our human nature/inclinations--we need to correctly understand in order to correctly apply. ---thus, belief, intentions and actions must be in harmony.----so how would you suggest Christians use/apply the Shema within Christianity? -----At the moment, it seems as if a square peg (polytheism) is being shoved into a round hole (monotheism)

"I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."---interesting....might this be another "common ground"?

 

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
It is great that Christians want to abide by the Shema. I hope they succeed because then they will be able to focus on the message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) instead of fighting/obsessing over Dogma?

It really shouldn't be that hard. As I've mentioned before, Jesus' followers (Paul and others) talk about the Great Commandments being there "from the beginning". A Christian (a follower and disciple of Christ) cannot love God WITHOUT loving their neighbor as the self. If I heard any Christian saying that enforcing dogma was more important than loving the neighbor...I'd doubt they truly understood the Christian message...

Verification of Jesus' teachings by His disciples and followers:
"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." --1 John 3:11

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” --Galatians 5:13-14, Paul

And that's not even counting 1 Corinthians 13 and what is says about everything being grounded in LOVE.

Again, if a Christian is NOT "loving the neighbor as oneself" then regardless of what they are more trinitarian or unitarian, they are STILL denying the faith.

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Siam:
An idea or philosophy by itself is simply words----it must be applied in order to be useful. Yet, a bunch of rules/laws will not work given our human nature/inclinations--we need to correctly understand in order to correctly apply. ---thus, belief, intentions and actions must be in harmony.----so how would you suggest Christians use/apply the Shema within Christianity? -----At the moment, it seems as if a square peg (polytheism) is being shoved into a round hole (monotheism)

Heh. I'd be happy if Christians just learned to do what Jesus said first (ala loving God through loving the neighbor as oneself, loving your enemies, etc)...before we tried to establish and/or break down any implicit tri-theism that may be there. Gotta take one step at a time, ya know? :shade:

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Siam:
"I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."---interesting....might this be another "common ground"?

I sure do believe so! What Christian can deny that statement, whether trinitarian or unitarian? None. And for certain no Muslim would deny that. Yep.

 

[YieldedOne]

I did some more thinking on Siam's stuff:
"I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."---interesting....might this be another "common ground"?

Doing some more thinking on the "credo" stated:

"I/We believe in One God: the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."

It seems to me that this affirmation of faith would be directly applicable to Muslims and the "People of the Book" (namely adherents of Judaism and Christianity).

A Jewish Rabbi, a Muslim Imam, and a Christian priest could say this affirmation with absolutely no sense of compromise. All three religious leaders worship the One "Covanental" God to whom Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus related. Regardless of what the three think about Jesus being Messiah or Jesus being the Son of God, they would ALL KNOW FOR CERTAIN that they are indeed talking about the same God.

The most that each could say about the others is that said others worship God incompletely or wrongly. But NONE OF THEM could say that the other worshipped a totally different, "idolatrous" God. That would not even be the truth. Literally, it would NOT be a true statement! mg:

Wow.

Then all of Siam's statements follow:

There is only ONE God, the Unique, Uncreated creator of all creation. Therefore, in order to show him respect (God is genderless), we respect all his creation. This means, all our interactions with God's creation must be with the intention not to cause harm.

There is only One God---therefore all human beings, regardless of our religious affiliation or geographical location, are all equally God's creations. In this sense, we are all one family/brotherhood. When we interact with our fellow brothers and sisters with compassion and mercy out of "love of God" because they are equally his creation, we are confirming "right belief" (Tawheed).

There is only One God----the earth and its rescources are also God's creations. These must be respected, and used wisely and with consideration.

To do otherwise is to selfishly put our needs above God's will (Tawheed)........without "right belief"/tawheed---arrogance, selfishness, greed, miserliness,....etc become the rulers....."right belief"/tawheed helps us look beyond our "self" and this flows into right intentions that lead to right actions..........

Technically speaking, any person who could say "the credo" would be believing in just the "One God" described above. Neither the Rabbi, nor the Imam, nor the Priest should be able to deny Siam's articulations here.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. :shade:

Thanks for all the interaction, Siam and others. It's been tremendously helpful. Blessings be, yo! :statisfie

 

[YieldedOne]

A picture I like from during the protests in Egypt...



At this point, I'd subtitle this..."We believe in One God: the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped!"



From the article...

I was told: "We are all in this together. Muslims and Christians." Other people were listening and nodding. "One hand, one hand," the crowd roared.
This time they were not talking about the people and the army, as they had a few days earlier, but about Egyptian unity. Muslims and Christians: One hand.

 

[YieldedOne]

Now that's God. :statisfie

Whole thread at a glance.

 

[Ramadhan]

Religious tolerance is one thing, but trying to obfscate who we all worship is another. And obfuscation is what I think you are trying to do.

That's right, muslims worship the God that Ibrahim, musa, Isa, Muhammad (pbut) all worshiped,
BUT
muslims definitely do NOT worship Christian god (the father, isa and holy spirit).

So quit trying as if we worship the same God. It gets nauseating after a while.

I certainly do not worship Isa, I worship the God that Isa (pbuh) worship
but christian worship Isa (p),
so do not make it as if christians do not worship Isa (p).

 

[YieldedOne]

Hey, Naidamar. Good to see ya! :shade:

Let's do it...

naidamar:
Religious tolerance is one thing, but trying to obfscate who we all worship is another. And obfuscation is what I think you are trying to do.

That's right, muslims worship the God that Ibrahim, musa, Isa, Muhammad (pbut) all worshiped, BUT muslims definitely do NOT worship Christian god (the father, isa and holy spirit).

So quit trying as if we worship the same God. It gets nauseating after a while.


Ok. At the risk of being redundant...I'm going to review a post from a coupla days ago...and then restate my position.

It's funny. I've been accused by Christians AND Muslims of trying to "gloss over" the differences of the two religions by this focus on the Great Commandments as taught by Jesus. I don't see how that can be the case though. It is crystal clear to me that true Muslims will never be trinitarians (Jesus is NOT the Son of God) and true Christians will never NOT be trinitarian (Jesus IS the Son of God). No amount of discussion will ever change that, I don't think. So there could never be some kind of one-world-religion "gloss over" in that respect. Islam and Christians, though both Abrahamic religions, are absolutely, immutably distinct from one another. And I think that should be said upfront. No "Christianizing" Islam or "Islamizing" Christianity possible. All I'm saying is that, even within those inevitable differences, there is a core that allows for effective common ground for both that doesn't compromise the faith of EITHER GROUP.

If you check the underlined parts, you will see that I clearly state that true Muslims are not (and never will be) trinitarians and true Christians are not (and never will be) monadic/unitarian. Why? Simple. Because Christians do believe in Jesus being the Eternal Son of God...and Muslims do not. That's basically what it comes down to. The only reason Christians even worship Jesus is because of the "Eternal Son of God" belief. Even the Nicene Creed makes this clear...

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father...

But NONE OF THIS, brother, means that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. The most that can be said is that 1) Muslims don't view the One God as triune and thus 2) worship of the One God as triune (ie. involving Jesus being the Eternal Son of God) is inaccurate and/or inadequate worship. You can't LOGICALLY say that Christians worship a fundamentally and absolutely different God from the One God who Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David all worshipped. Because that's simply not the truth. It is not a true statement to say that Christians do not worship the One God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David. It is not a true statement to say that Muslims do not worship the One God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David.

And let's not forget the Quran...29:46

Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our God and your God is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

Brother naidamar, does the Quranic verse above directly state that the God of the "people of the Scripture" is "one and the same" with the God of Muslims? Just looking at the text now...


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naidamar:
I certainly do not worship Isa, I worship the God that Isa (pbuh) worship
but christian worship Isa (p),
so do not make it as if christians do not worship Isa (p).

1) I've never said that Christians don't worship Jesus as the Son of God. Show me any place on this thread or any other where I've made such an assertion, please.

2) The only reason that Christians worship Isa in the first place is because they believe that Christ has been EXALTED by the One God (spoken of in the Nicene Creed) who sent him. That's it. Please note: The only reason that Christians worship Christ is because they believe that the One God has told them to do so.

You don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, therefore you don't worship him as such. You don't believe that the One God is triune. That's entirely fair, bro. But to say that you don't worship the same One God that Christians do just because you don't believe that the Jesus is the Son of God is INACCURATE, at best.

 

[YieldedOne]

Is there anyone here (Muslim, Christian, or otherwise) who can adequate demonstrate from the Quran or any hadith how the God of the "people of the Scripture"--presumably, the One God who was worshipped by Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David--and the God of Muslims is NOT "one and the same"?

I'm open for anyone who wants to show me how that works. I will change my view on the spot.

Do not argue with the people of the scripture except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our God and your God is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

I'm not talking about demonstrating that Muslims don't believe in a trinitarian view of the One God, while Christians do. That's obviously there. I'm talking about demonstrating that Muslims worship an entirely different God than Christians do.

It is one thing for Muslims to say that Christians think of the One God WRONGLY (ie triune) and thus worship him WRONGLY (ie worshipping Jesus as Eternal Son of God). It's a whole different thing for Muslims to accuse Christians worshipping a deity totally and entirely distinct from the One God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses and David that they do.

 

[YieldedOne]

More Maududi...

From the Note on Quran 3:3...

--------------------------------

The Old Testament was compiled by Ezra, when the Israelites returned home to Jerusalem after their captivity in Babylon and built the Temple anew. Ezra gathered together some prominent men of his community, and with their help compiled the whole history of Israel which now comprises the first 17 books of the Bible. Of these Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronorny tell the life history of Prophet Moses and include those verses of the real Taurat which became available to Ezra and his assistants, who incorporated them in those books at appropriate places in the chronological order of their revelation. Thus it is obvious that the Pentateuch as a whole is not the Taurat but includes it. The real Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them. Such portions where the author says, "God said to Moses," or Moses said, The Lord your God says," the Taurat begins, and where the narrative of the life story is resumed, there that part of the Taurat ends. At those places the author of the Bible has inserted certain things by way of explanation or commentary, and it is here that the ordinary reader fails to distinguish the real Taurat from the commentary. However, those who have an insight into the nature of Divine Scriptures, can distinguish, to some degree of exactness, the explanatory. notes from the revealed verses.

According to the Qur'an, only such scattered portions in the Pentateuch are the Taurat and it confirms them alone. And this can be testified by putting together these verses and comparing them with the Qur'an. Here and there one might come across a minor difference in their details, but one cannot find even the slightest difference between the fundamental teachings of the two. Even today one can see clearly that both the Scriptures have come from the same source.

Likewise, the Injil is the name of those inspired discourses and sayings which Jesus (Allah's peace be upon him) uttered as a prophet during the last couple of years of his life. We have no means now of ascertaining whether these pious utterances were recorded and compiled during the lifetime of Jesus. In the introduction to his translation of the Bible, Moffat says, "Jesus wrote nothing and for a time his immediate disciples felt no impulse to write any account of him. The data of the historical Jesus, therefore is based on the vivid recollections and traditions of the primitive Palestinian disciples. How soon their materials took written shape we cannot tell, but at least one written record of them was probably in existence by about A.D.50." Anyhow, when, long after his recall, the stories of Jesus were compiled in the shape of four Gospels, (the period of the composition of Mark, the tirst to be composed was 65-75 A.D.), some of his written or inspired sayings were also inserted at appropriate places in the historical sketches. Thus it is obvious that the first four Gospels are not the Injil, the discourses and sayings of Jesus, but they contain it. We have no means of recognizing thetas from the works of the authors except this: Wherever the authors say "Jesus said so or taught so and so," there the Injil begins and where they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Qur'an, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are condensed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Qur'an, one will tied no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking.

-------------------------------------------


Does anyone here disagree with Mr. Maududi's view on this? If so, why?



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"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying...": Leviticus 19:1

“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it: Deuteronomy 6:1

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he (Jesus) said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”: Matthew 22:34-40

 

[Ramadhan]

Yieldedone,


Why do missionaries need to be so deceptive?
(that's a rethorical question by the way, missionaries need to be deceptive because they dont have the truth)

Why do you not just accept that Christians do not worshiped the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammad (pbut) worshiped?
Ibrahim (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Musa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Isa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Muhammad (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).

Even Isa's apostles never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).

I am glad you bring up the Nicene creed, so it is crystal clear that current christians worshiped The God of Nicene creed.

 

[YieldedOne]

naidamar:
Why do missionaries need to be so deceptive?

Umm...who's a missionary? I know I'm not. And what does that have to do with anything anyways? ^o)

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naidamar:
Why do you not just accept that Christians do not worshiped the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammad (pbut) worshiped?

Ibrahim (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Musa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Isa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Muhammad (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Even Isa's apostles never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).

All you are saying, brother naidamar, is that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the apostles were not trinitarian qua church creeds. That's all that you are saying, bro. But not even conservative Christian scholars would argue THAT particular point.

Do you not see that this doesn't touch the essential question at hand?

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Naidamar:
I am glad you bring up the Nicene creed, so it is crystal clear that current christians worshiped The God of Nicene creed.

Umm...to worship the God represented in the Nicene Creed MEANS to believe in ONE GOD, bro. (See the first line of it?) The "ONE GOD" claim in the Nicene Creed is from the Jewish Shema that Jesus spoke and lived in worship. You know this, right? There would be no concept of "Son of God" or "Exalted Messiah of God" without the ONE GOD we are talking about.

Are you not seeing this, homie? :hmm:

 

[siam]

All worship and prayers go to the One God irrespective of our religious lables or concepts. All creation comes from him and will return to him.

Yet, I agree with naidamar that when trinitarian Christians claim they worship ONE God of the Shema/Tawheed, they only decieve themselves.

Surah 112
1. Say: He is God, the ONE
2. God the eternal, absolute,
3. He Begetteth not, nor is he begetton.
4. And there is none like unto him.

The concept of God of the Shema and Tawheed is Indivisible, Unique, One
The concept of God of the Shema and Tawheed is NOT a triune God, is not a 3-in-one God....
Neither Jews nor Muslims accept ONE God to mean a triune God.

So then, Christians have a dilemma ---they can ignore the Torah and the Quran and stick with their triune concept of God. or they can accept the Shema/Tawheed and follow the teachings of the (Jewish) Jesus Christ (pbuh) and ignore the concept of a triune God. If they choose the first path, and they intend to stay true to it, they must accept that they are polytheists. If they choose the other path, and intend to stay true to it, they must accept that a triune concept of God is incompatible with the monotheism of the Shema/Judaism and Tawheed/Islam.

Christians have chosen neither path----they simply obsess and fight over the intricacies of their triune concept of God, forgetting both the Shema and the many wisdom teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh). They choose to decieve themselves using words (and technicalities). They are true to neither their Triune God, nor to the ONE Indivisible Unique God worshipped by Jesus Christ (pbuh) and all the other Prophets.


Jewish monotheistic concept of God......
"Judaism is based on a strict monotheism. This doctrine expresses the belief in one indivisible God. The worship of multiple gods (polytheism) and the concept of a Singular God having multiple persons (as in the doctrine of Trinity) are equally unimaginable in Judaism. The statement par excellence in terms of defining God is the Shema Yisrael, originally appearing in the Hebrew Bible: "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One", also translated as "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is unique/alone."[Deut. 6:4]"----wikipedia

The Hindu polytheistic concept of God....
There is One supreme God. Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are not three independent and separate deities, but three different aspects of the same Supreme God, The descent of God to Earth in corporeal form to restore dharma to society and to guide humans to moksha, as an incarnation is called an avatar.
(Christian = 3-in-one God , the Hindu = 100s-in-one God)

Thomas Paine----"...But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing or disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe."

When Muslims and Jews allow triune Christians to claim they are monotheists, We do not compromise our beliefs. It is only Chrsitians who decieve themselves. The Hindus do not bother to hide behind the label of "monotheism"....why do Christians? Why claim you believe in the Jewish Shema when you well know you do not?

However, YO, you are also correct that the way forward in finding "common ground" is not in what we believe, but what we do-----when we concentrate on this aspect of our religions-----the aspect that helps us be better human beings, we can all find ways to co-operate with each other to build better selves and a better world.......

 

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
All worship and prayers go to the One God irrespective of our religious lables or concepts. All creation comes from him and will return to him.

I fundamentally believe that to be true. If Christians worship and call upon the God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David wrongly, I trust that the ignorant sincerity of heart is there. I trust that God is the Most Compassionate and Merciful. I pray that Allah searches my heart and forgives my errancy.


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Siam:
Yet, I agree with naidamar that when trinitarian Christians claim they worship ONE God of the Shema/Tawheed, they only decieve themselves.
and...
When Muslims and Jews allow triune Christians to claim they are monotheists, We do not compromise our beliefs. It is only Chrsitians who decieve themselves. The Hindus do not bother to hide behind the label of "monotheism"....why do Christians? Why claim you believe in the Jewish Shema when you well know you do not?

If you believe that we (Christians) are self-deceived, then there's really nothing we can do about that. Not right now, at least. I do believe that there is a reasonable defense for thinking of God as triune uncreated reality...but that's far afield what I'm trying to do here right now. Currently, I'll settle for whether or not it's reasonable to say that Isa's Great Commandments are essential for "true" Muslim faith (ala Abd Al-Ati). I will accept that I possibly worship the One God (whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped) WRONGLY from self-deceit. But we can still be good "neighbors", right?

Maybe on another thread, though... ;D

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Siam:
However, YO, you are also correct that the way forward in finding "common ground" is not in what we believe, but what we do-----when we concentrate on this aspect of our religions-----the aspect that helps us be better human beings, we can all find ways to co-operate with each other to build better selves and a better world.......

Cool. :shade:

 

[YieldedOne]

Interestingly enough, this is a good time to take things all the way back to the beginning. Of how the title of this thread is actually relevent. Admittedly, it's said kind of stated boldly. But not dishonestly or disrespectfully. I am not about disrespecting my brothers and sisters in Islam. No way. But I do feel like the line of thought is very solid. If it's not, shoot it down, siblings. I really want to know if the thinking works or not.

Siam, I’d love your take on this. Yours too, naidamar…


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Major Point:
Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a "true", faithful Muslim without heeding Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".


Discussion of Major Point:
According to Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's summary of the fundamental articles of Islamic faith--found in his work "Islam in Focus"---true, faithful Muslims are obligated by their faith to believe what can be reasonably discerned as authentic, uncorrupted Torah (Torat) and Gospel (Injeel) teaching from the Holy Books of the "people of the Book", namely Jews and Christians. This is explicitly affirmed within the Qur'an. (Surahs 2:136, with cross referencing of 3:1-4; 3:84; 4:163-165; 6:84-87.) Moreover, true Muslims are to fully obey the divinely revealed teaching of God's Messenger and Prophet, Isa/Jesus (Surah 43:63-64), as Jesus' teaching was "confirming the Torah" which antedated him. (Surah 61:6-7)

Given all this, if it is true that Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and Leviticus 19:9-18 (The Great Commandments of Jesus ala Matthew 22:34-40) are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material--per meeting the specifications of accepted Islamic commentaries, such as those produced by Maulana Maududi--then, from Hammudah Abd Al-Ati's perspective and others like Sohaib N. Sultan* --, the "true Muslim" absolutely must believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully. To do otherwise is to implicitly break faith with Allah and rebel against Allah's truth as revealed by a divinely-sent Messenger, Prophet, and Messiah, Isa/Jesus.


Implications of Major Point and Discussion:
Muslims and Christians are bound by mutually-held belief in Jesus/Isa as Allah's Mesenger and Prophet and his teaching of the "Great Commandments" such that both groups are committed by their own holy books to heed Jesus/Isa's commands to "love your neighbor as yourself."

----------------------------------

Sohib N. Sultan's The Qur'an and Sayings of Prophet Muhammad: Selections Annotated & Explained on page 24, where there was comment on Surah 3:3-4...

The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus are mentioned here as scriptures that were sent by God for the purpose of guidance. As such, Muslims are required, by faith, to believe in the unaltered, original Torah and Gospel as books of revelation. However, emphasis must be placed on the word "original" because Muslims believe that the Torah and Gospel were altered by the hands of men in later generations.

 

[YieldedOne]

"Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations."
--Maulana Maududi

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The real Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them.

...

We have no means of recognizing thetas from the works of the authors except this: Wherever the authors say "Jesus said so or taught so and so," there the Injil begins and where they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Qur'an, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are condensed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Qur'an, one will find no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking.
--Maulana Maududi

 

[siam]

"But we can still be good "neighbors", right?"-----perhaps you are getting my point.....
You see, what I believe or what you believe is irrelevant to being "good neighbors"-----a Hindu person or a Shinto person can also equally be a "good neighbor" and be true to their beliefs.......

therefore--your major point ---"Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a "true", faithful Muslim without heeding Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".
seems to unnecessarily limit what it means to be a Muslim from a Muslim perspective. It seems you (or someone) may have substituted " Bliblically speaking" with "Quranically speaking" and "true faithful Christian" with "true faithful Muslim ". While Christians are still figuring out what it means to be a "true faithful Christian", We Muslims already know what it is to be a Muslim---and it starts with the 5 pillars. That there are teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh) of deep spirituality and wisdom may come as "news" to some Christians who have been obsessing exclusively about the trinity. We Muslims have known and strived to follow these teachings for 1400 years....its not "news" to us.

So....in concrete terms, how do you propose Christians and Muslims be good neighbors?......what areas of co-operation do you forsee?

 

[YieldedOne]

YO: But we can still be good "neighbors", right?"

Siam: perhaps you are getting my point.....You see, what I believe or what you believe is irrelevant to being "good neighbors"-----a Hindu person or a Shinto person can also equally be a "good neighbor" and be true to their beliefs.

The major difference here is that a Hindu, Shinto, or Buddhist practitioner would not be being "good neighbors" from the stance of obedience to a prophetic word from the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped. In short, they wouldn't be doing it as "people of the Book." Yes, they would be consistent with their own beliefs...and that's great. But it would not be from the theological "common ground" that Muslims and Christians have in Jesus/Isa as sinless Messenger, Servant and Prophet of Allah.

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Siam:
therefore--your major point ---"Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a "true", faithful Muslim without heeding Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".
seems to unnecessarily limit what it means to be a Muslim from a Muslim perspective.

Hmmm...I don't see how the idea is "limiting" at all. The idea doesn't replace or negate the 5 pillars or any other basic duty of Islamic faith. If anything, it complements those beliefs. How does it "limit"?


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Siam:
It seems you (or someone) may have substituted " Bliblically speaking" with "Quranically speaking" and "true faithful Christian" with "true faithful Muslim ".

Actually, nope. What I did was take very seriously what Sohib N. Sultan and Hammudat Abd Al-Ati were saying in their works. Abd Al-Ati starts out saying thus...exact quote...

"The true, faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith..."

So that's EXACTLY where I got the "true, faithful Muslim" language. Nowhere else!

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Siam:
While Christians are still figuring out what it means to be a "true faithful Christian", We Muslims already know what it is to be a Muslim---and it starts with the 5 pillars. That there are teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh) of deep spirituality and wisdom may come as "news" to some Christians who have been obsessing exclusively about the trinity. We Muslims have known and strived to follow these teachings for 1400 years....its not "news" to us.

Ok. That's awesome. For my perspective, it's just good to see that there is genuine, authentic "common ground" between Islam and Christianity that is DEMONSTRABLE. And if my line of thinking works (which I genuine believe it does), then it is very demonstrable.


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Siam:
So....in concrete terms, how do you propose Christians and Muslims be good neighbors?......what areas of co-operation do you forsee?

First, I propose that standard criteria be set up for the background of Muslim/Christian dialogue based solidly on what's been discussed here. Specifically the following:

Torah-asserted, Isa-affirmed Commandments from God
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Torah-asserted, Isa-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

Basically, this list would be AGREED UPON as a fundamental basis for all interfaith (and intrafaith) interaction, discussion, and dialogue. That simply means no begrudging, no slander, no manipulation, etc, for ANYONE who believes in Jesus/Isa as genuine Prophet and Messenger of Allah. Both Muslims and Christians would be held to these standards of discourse out of faithful obedience the same Prophet of God, Isa.

As I see many Muslim/Christian dialogues, they seem rife with incivility and hidden resentment. The "Loving your Neighbor As Yourself" standards, being more objective and agreed upon, can stem at least some of this. Can you imagine how much more productive Muslims and Christians could work together if we DIDN'T HOLD GRUDGES about the past?? Just that one ALONE would make such a difference.

The "areas of cooperation" are endless as there is much suffering and redemption in the world that is to be done. Who knows? Maybe together we can be that "band of people"...right, Siam?

"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: they are the ones to attain felicity."

Thanks for this, again, Siam. It's a beautiful hope to ponder!

"One hand, one hand!"​

 

[YieldedOne]

Here's another thing:
There should never be any context where a true, faithful Christian and a true, faithful Muslim are actively trying to hate one another, take vengeance on one another, or threaten the lives of one another. They should only endeavor to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, per Jesus/Isa's personal example and Torat-Injeel teaching.


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Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.


The "New" Commandment from Jesus
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

"This is my command: Love each other."