Islam and Apostasy

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Thanks for an interesting post Ansar Al-'Adl.

I would like to ask how that helps the poor Christian recently in the news from Afghanistan though.

After all for that poor soul, Islam is what it is.

Are you agreeing that if it can’t be done in the right way it shouldn’t be done?

If not then what?

Kill the fellow even though his killers are as wrong as him according to Islam?

I am sure he and his family would take comfort in that.

An interesting concept there.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
Ansar Al-'Adl you are most likely correct "His family is the one that called for his execution".

I don't recall his children calling for his execution, I may have missed it though.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
Ansar Al-'Adl you are most likely correct "His family is the one that called for his execution".

I don't recall his children calling for his execution, I may have missed it though.

I think the news reports said that he was involved in a custody dispute with his wife and family. So they settled it by denouncing him.
 
Assalamu alaikum,

The penalty is death....there is plenty of sahih hadeeth on this topic.
Unfortunately i cannot copy and paste them (it wont let me).
Let me type one...
Narrated by abdullah : Allahs apostle said "the blood of a muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that i am his apsotle cannot be shed excpet in three cases 1. Qisas for murder. 2. a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse. 3. and the person who reverts from islam and leaves the muslims.

(sahih bukhari.volume 9. book 83 blood money..hadeeth 017).
 
Re: Apostates of Islam

:sl:
Osama Abdalla, author of Answering-Christianity.com, is not a scholar of Islam. He has not studied the extensive proofs quoted previously in the articles I pasted earlier. The authentic view is that the apostate has committed treason against the Islamic state (bear in mind that all Muslim citizens pledge allegiance to the head of state, therefore this is treason) and is punishable by capital punishment if the person will not be reasoned with even after he dialogues with Muslims for a certain period of time.

:w:

Are you sure? Just think about it, the True Religion of God killing those who leave it, shouldnt we leave the punishment to Allah?
 
To take any action against any one for Apostasy is to deny another human “Freedom of Speech”, “Freedom of Religion”, and “Freedom of Thought”. May god punish any one who takes away the freedoms that he has given us.
 
To take any action against any one for Apostasy is to deny another human “Freedom of Speech”, “Freedom of Religion”, and “Freedom of Thought”. May god punish any one who takes away the freedoms that he has given us.
Hi wilber,
Please read this post where I have explained the punishment for apostasy in context and provided the justification in light of humanitarian values:
http://www.islamicboard.com/232188-post29.html

Regards
 
Again "To take any action against any one for Apostasy is to deny another human “Freedom of Speech”, “Freedom of Religion”, and “Freedom of Thought”. May god punish any one who takes away the freedoms that he has given us."
In any context. Leave god's punishment to god. If you think he needs your help, you need a new god.
 
Re: Apostates of Islam

:sl:





Both from:
http://islamtoday.net/english/discover_islam.cfm?cat_id=6&sub_cat_id=48

Although the IslamToday team provides a clear and simplistic explanation, this issue is actually deeper than this and I intend, inshaa'Allah, to provide a closer analysis of the various views in light of the Qur'an, Ahadith and 'Ijmaa of the scholars, in the future.

Other links:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544134
http://muslim-canada.org/APOSNOFR.HTM#four
---
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/zb_mri/islam_and_human_rights.htm

:w:

:sl: ,

Would this mean that if one person wanted to leave Islam or convert to another religion (not to bring doubt to others but because he decides Islam isn't right for him) is he an apostate?
 
Again "To take any action against any one for Apostasy is to deny another human “Freedom of Speech”, “Freedom of Religion”, and “Freedom of Thought”. May god punish any one who takes away the freedoms that he has given us. In any context."
Dear Wilber,
First you ignored the explanations in this thread and posted this comment and then even when I kindly asked you to refer back to my post you still refuse to read my explanation? With all due respect, such an attitude is not befitting of one who wishes to engage in intellectual discussion. If you don't want to read others views then why bother posting here?

Here the link is AGAIN:
http://www.islamicboard.com/232188-post29.html
You can go back and read where I explained when a state is or is not justified in taking action against an individual. If you don't want to learn the Islamic perspective, then don't bother discussing. I am not going to waste my time re-typing out my entire explanation.

Please respond to what I have already written, otherwise do not waste my time and your time!!

Yes, a state Leave god's punishment to god. If you think he needs your help, you need a new god.
Did I say the punishment is designed to help God out? Not only do you ignore my explanations but now you start attributing absurd ideas to me. Please go back and read the explanation I have already provided. If you don't like it or think it is flawed, then feel free to expose the flaw in my judgement or reasoning. Don't ask for a discussion if you won't even bother to listen to the other person's views.
 
Re: Apostates of Islam

:sl: ,

Would this mean that if one person wanted to leave Islam or convert to another religion (not to bring doubt to others but because he decides Islam isn't right for him) is he an apostate?
:sl:
From my previous explanation:
However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

...So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.
:w:
 
:sl:
It is really frustrating and upsetting for me when I take the time to provide an -in-depth explanation of such issues for both Muslims and Non-Muslims and then people continue to raise the same questions in this thread without bothering to look back at my post. Anyone who browses through the thread can see how many times I have had to refer people back to my other post, which is absolutely ridiculous. I don't mind if anyone wants to discuss the issue in more detail or comment on what I have previously written, but when people just ignore the explanation I provided and persist in raising the same questions/comments, that is totally preposterous.

:w:
 
It is really frustrating and upsetting for me when people use ANY justifications to deprive people of there Freedoms. There are items in each and every religion that I find offensive, but I find this to be the second most offensive concept within any religion. Every religion claims the truth. Ever religion claims they are right. Every religion claims that every other religion is wrong. But your religion should be between you and god. There is an old atheist saying, ‘Religion does not make a good person do good things. Religion does not stop evil people from doing evil things. But it does take religion go get good people to do evil things”. Men deciding that they have the right to enact there version of “Gods Punishment”, are to me, the foulest of evil. Little OBL’s. I think that the evil we do in the name of god is the most evil of all. And I conceder any one that denies freedom and equality to everyone, in the name of god, is a bigoted and evil person. I don’t know how I can make it any clearer.
 
It is really frustrating and upsetting for me when people use ANY justifications to deprive people of there Freedoms.
Islam doesn't deprive anyone of freedoms. Like every other civilized society in the world (without exception), Islam balances individual freedoms with the protection of society. Please wilber, why don't you learn about the issues instead of restating the misconceptions that I have already debunked? I'm afraid this is the final opportunity I can give you to engage in a productive dialogue on this topic and actually consider what the other side is saying.

Since you persistently refuse to use the link I am pasting my previous response here for your convenience. Please READ it.

Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:
1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?


Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.


Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad (saws) ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad (saws) did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad (saws) threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.

So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.​
If you do not respond to the points I have already made on this issue then I am afraid we can no longer entertain your comments in this thread since you clearly are not here for open discussion and learning about the views of others. I seriously hope you will reconsider your attitude so that we can have a productive dialogue without ignoring the views of the other person.

Regards
 
Just a minor point, "Islam doesn't deprive anyone of freedoms.", ALL "order" restricts someone's freedoms.

Even Wilber Hum's choice of "order"

Thanks
Nimrod
 
:salamext:
Brother Ansar

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4738-islam-apostasy-post232188.html
this is beneficial :thankyou:
specially
Ansar Al-'Adl said:
So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.


Ansar Al-'Adl said:
Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam.
Do u mean knowledgeable Muslim will never left Islam.

Than I have 1 question
Does it ur personal view
Or
the Qur’an or Authentic Hadis support it

I also never saw any knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam

But I m afraid
I m not believe that knowledgeable Muslim will never left Islam

* If any knowledgeable Muslim have weak heart and His mind is not strong
* He lives in, where almost every one against him or confused him
* live in such culture (like so called modern or ultra modern culture of the world is so delicious.) where Weak hearted Muslim (can be knowledgeable) could be blinded totally. {many more.......}
(I wonder what else one can not do on that culture. Every naked thing is supported and inspired. People enjoy and encouraged in bad thing while good and noble thing discouraged or banned i.e.; “wearing hijab is discouraged or banned. Really hard to believe”)​

I think above situations together could destroy any one
 
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