Islam and Apostasy

[glo]

Thanks..though I did prefer my old one but I had no choice in the matter. I was told, ever human image was to be removed. :?
Peace

Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder? :rollseyes
Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours??? :?

Blessings,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nicola,

I understand what your saying and I agree totaly...

And yet you are not anymore knowledgeable on the laws!

what better way to get someone out of the way you don't like them, than to spread lies they have insulted the prophet of the koran.

Perjury is punished severely in Islam. And Islam guarantees a trial to examine all the evidence. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh forbade punishments when there is any doubt concerning the guilt of the accused, so who on earth can someone fabricate this lie that false testimonies are enough to get someone punished in Islamic law.

It's really is so easy to abuse this law.

No it is not if you study the law. But yeah, someone who is completely ignorant of the laws may indeed think they are easy to abuse.

I've wondered how this law came about.

The cure for ignorance is learning. Please read my first post where I have explained the historical context.

Yet allah in the koran now gives permission to kill people who insult their book or prophet.

BLATANT LIE. Provide me the quotation from the Qur'an that says this. If you cannot then I hope you will have the decency to apologize for this lie against Islam.

when they can't possibly know whats in a persons heart for sure.

No one is ever punished in Islam for a matter that involves their personal commitment to God. The punishments are for the protection of society and against the harm someone has caused to society.

It must have been really lonely for him.

It's alright for you to hypothesize about his case, but the truth is you don't know what he was like at all.

 

[cool_jannah]

Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder? :rollseyes
Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours??? :?

Blessings,

Because it is strictly forbidden to depict any picture of a human being, specially of the beautiful Prophets of God under Islamic Shari'a

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder? :rollseyes
Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours??? :?

Blessings,

We are implenting this rule for everyone, so yes others are being required to remove pictures of people. Nicola's avatar was a depiction of Prophet Jesus.

 

[glo]

Because it is strictly forbidden to depict any picture of a human being, specially of the beautiful Prophets of God under Islamic Shari'a

So I understand.
But if Nicola's avatar has to go, what about all the others??

Are body parts okay (see the hand on my avatar)
And is there just the faintest hint of a person in the background??! :rollseyes

Moderators, just inform me of your verdict.

Blessings,

 

[glo]

We are implenting this rule for everyone, so yes others are being required to remove pictures of people. Nicola's avatar was a depiction of Prophet Jesus.

:?
How do you know it was Jesus????
He looked like a guy with a sense of hunour to me! ;D

 

[snakelegs]

Hello Snakelegs,

This is utter nonsense. I am appaled that you would just fabricate such an idea - no one is allowed to be punished in Islamic law on flimsy evidence. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself said that the punishment is to be abandoned in the presence of ANY doubt. So the notion that you can just bribe a few people to testify against someone is a malicious lie in Islam. Islam guarantees everyone a trial where the evidence against them is examined. If you say that you didn't insult the Qur'an or the Prophet, then unless they have concrete and indisputable evidence to prove otherwise then they can't punish you on the basis of someone's testimony. And the punishment against perjury in Islam is a severe enough deterrent to stop anyone from giving false testimony.

I really suggest that you try to learn what Islamic law actually states rather than advancing this ridiculous conjecture that we can kill anyone by just getting a few people to testify against them.

i am only repeating what i've read in the pakistani english press, as well as what i've been told by pakistanis. to me, if you think about it, it just makes sense. you may well be right about islamic law - i am just talking about what sometimes actually happens - in this case it would be a wrong implementation of the shariah.
actually, no one has been put to death for blasphemy in pakistan (though it is legally possible), but many rot in jails.
in the u.s. for example, the constitution is not always followed, in which case one can appeal to the supreme court. the soviet union had a lovely constitution, but it was not followed in practice.

 

[Nicola]

Hello Nicola,

And yet you are not anymore knowledgeable on the laws!

Did I say I was?

Perjury is punished severely in Islam. And Islam guarantees a trial to examine all the evidence. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh forbade punishments when there is any doubt concerning the guilt of the accused, so who on earth can someone fabricate this lie that false testimonies are enough to get someone punished in Islamic law.

But there are different kinds of perjury aren't there...e.g some lies don't count?

No it is not if you study the law. But yeah, someone who is completely ignorant of the laws may indeed think they are easy to abuse.

So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?
If only life was that simple!

BLATANT LIE. Provide me the quotation from the Qur'an that says this. If you cannot then I hope you will have the decency to apologize for this lie against Islam.

I believed after seeing so many death threats to westerners because of those cartoons..this was an Islamic law because of the insults to Islam and Mohammed..also Salman Rushdie what did he do wrong according to Islamic law..it must have been something serious to be issued a death sentance, they must have been acting on some form of Islamic law for them to have issued one.. What in the koran gives them this right...I would like to know?

Or are these death sentances (fatwas)that some Muslims have issued to certain people, taken on their own backs with no Islamic ruling..and nothing at all, to do with isulting Islam or Mohammed?

If you could explain please.

No one is ever punished in Islam for a matter that involves their personal commitment to God. The punishments are for the protection of society and against the harm someone has caused to society.

Thats Islamic law...I'm talking about what happens in real life. Would be great if all people obeyed the laws of the land...etc..but people don't and never will
because they are sinful.

It's alright for you to hypothesize about his case, but the truth is you don't know what he was like at all.

From what I've read about the case I formed an opinion of what life would have been like for him living there and not being a Muslim but a secret born again Christian.
I do write with perscuted Christians in this world so I do know how they suffer for accepting Jesus has their saviour. Most people form opinions, it's natural. And it was only my opinion that it must have been lonely for him..I didn't say It was lonely for him because I don't know him personally...other people of this forums opinion have been saying he should be killed.:? Though I believe that is cruel but that is their opinion and they are entitled to it.



This applies to everything in life if your not there yourself..you don't know for sure what is true or not.

 

[Nicola]

Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder? :rollseyes

I don't know if you will it is a human hand isn't it?...lol

Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours??? :? Blessings,

I know, even human photos of people which aren't allowed either as I understand the law so far.

God Bless

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Snakelegs,

i am only repeating what i've read in the pakistani english press, as well as what i've been told by pakistanis.

So your comments were based on hearsay and impressions conveyed by the media on what occurs in Muslim countries, not an objective study of Shari'ah law. When are we going to realize that the biggest obstacle to understanding others is to judge their way of life on the basis of the selective presentation in the media? Non-muslims need to take an objective learning approach to Islam and search for answers rather than advancing their conjecture on what may or may not occur with Islamic law.

in the u.s. for example, the constitution is not always followed, in which case one can appeal to the supreme court. the soviet union had a lovely constitution, but it was not followed in practice.

But not following the law is not the same as abusing the law. You said that the laws may easily be abused which is not true. If you mean that they may easily be abandoned, I would agree because it is easy to abandon any law.

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Did I say I was?

I said that because both her comment and your confirmation of it were not based on knowledge of the issue.

But there are different kinds of perjury aren't there

No, all perjury is perjury and it is a terrible crime. False testimony is completely prohibited in Islam.

So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?

They have violated the laws and abandoned them, but that is not the same as abusing them.

I believed after seeing so many death threats to westerners because of those cartoons..this was an Islamic law because of the insults to Islam and Mohammed

So your comments were also not based on truth but on conjecture and misguided assumptions about Islam's teachings. Why don't you stop assuming negative things about Islam and try to learn about its teachings instead?

..also Salman Rushdie what did he do wrong according to Islamic law..it must have been something serious to be issued a death sentance, they must have been acting on some form of Islamic law for them to have issued one

It is a fallacy to think that everything a Muslim does must be in accordance with Islam. A fatwa is a religious ruling and there are some who are not scholars and do not have proper knowledge yet still give their own fatawa. It doesn't mean that their fatwa must be reflective of what Islam teaches.

Or are these death sentances (fatwas)

A fatwa is a religious ruling to be issued by a scholar, not a death sentence!!

Regards

 

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-'Adl, I for one want to offer you my thanks for taking the time to answer all the questions that you do. I am sure it takes a lot of time and it is mostly a thankless job.
I suspect at times it seems the whole western world is against you.

Your last post looked like you are starting to take some of the replies personally.

You ARE doing a great job. Don't let anything get under your skin.

Where the problem lies, I suspect, is that your replies seem to answer the questions in light of Islam, as it should be.
Islam, as it IS, is an entirely different matter.

If things were as they should be, the Middle East would be leading the way in reforming Muslim countries, instead about all the western world sees is a general condemnation of any attempt to rein in some of the excess' we see in the Muslim world (The current condemnation of the Western reform attempts in Afghanistan by many on this web-site are an example of what I am talking about).

At times it can be frustrating from both sides of the fence, if you know what I mean.

Nicola's posts are from a "real" world prospective. Your answers are from an "Ideal" world prospective.

That is why my last post to you was as it was.

We live in a world where there isn’t a single "true" Islamic state that exists. Is it still fair to execute people because they later decide they agree more with the Bible than they do Islam, in light of the world we live in today?

There is no way anyone can say that Afghanistan (under the Taliban rule) allowed things to exist so that a person had a fair chance at making an informed decision as to the choice of religious beliefs.

Ansar, I hope you understand why this issue generates so much passion. It is the life or death issue. It is not merely academic, like debating if a certain verse in the Bible has suffered rewriting or not.

In the real world this is what the Western world sees (At least in my small part of it):

Muslims are easily riled, they become violent when they get riled, they do a very poor job of policing their ranks, and they want to kill folks who get tired of it, even their own.

Ansar, I don’t intend for that last part to be insulting toward anyone, I am just trying to be plain spoken.

The bottom line for me is this, even if a person believes that converting away from Islam deserves the death penalty, before ANY state can assume the right to put the person to death, then the State must have clean hands.

Saudi Arabia has strayed so far from what Islam teaches that the leaders of that country have, for all intents and purposes, converted away from Islam and toward their own perverted system. So much so that the Islamic world declares that Saudi Arabia is a very, very, poor example of Islam (I have seen Saudi Arabia declared as such on this very web-site).

If any State is going to start executing folks for converting away from Islam then, by all means, address those who have converted/perverted Islam into what it is not as well.

There is a verse in the Bible, “Don’t condemn your fellow man for the speck of saw dust in his eye, when you have a plank stuck in your own eye” (my phrasing is slightly different than the true scripture, but I haven’t changed the meaning of the verse), that is sort of how the rest of the world sees Islam at the moment.

Ansar Al-‘Adl, I hope you will accept this post in the same light it is given in, I mean no insult or harm. I just felt there were some things that needed to be said in a plain spoken manner. After all we are talking about a life or death ruling here, such matters are more than just letters on a computer screen.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[snakelegs]

Hello Snakelegs,

So your comments were based on hearsay and impressions conveyed by the media on what occurs in Muslim countries, not an objective study of Shari'ah law. When are we going to realize that the biggest obstacle to understanding others is to judge their way of life on the basis of the selective presentation in the media? Non-muslims need to take an objective learning approach to Islam and search for answers rather than advancing their conjecture on what may or may not occur with Islamic law.

But not following the law is not the same as abusing the law. You said that the laws may easily be abused which is not true. If you mean that they may easily be abandoned, I would agree because it is easy to abandon any law.

Regards

i readily admit i am ignorant about shariah. my point was not about the shariah but about how these laws get implemented in the real world.
even many muslims allow that there are no muslim countries that are following shariah completely. i am definitely not qualified to judge shariah.
yes, my opinions are based on what i read as well as what i've been told by many pakistanis - and i'm thinking about pakistan because it is the only country that i have a little knowledge of.
is the pakistani english press presenting a biased view of pakistan?
i'm not sure if i understand your point about preferring the term "abadoned" instead of "abused".
i get the impression that you use the word "hearsay" to discount any opinion expressed by either muslims or non-muslim that doesn't conform to your views.

 

[Syed Nizam]

From what I understood from the coverage I read, he kept it to himself but his family found out and reported him to officals.


Either way, living that kind of pretence life must have been hard for him. He would never have been safe or free living there. I'm just pleased he is now away from it all and able to enjoy the life God called him out for.

So Muslims can change from Islam so long has they don't evangelize? Is that even in an Islamic country?

I have read different on this forum.

Nicola,

I would reserved my judgement on what actually transpired and what actually have been reported by the western media. Opps, especially the western media when it comes to reporting on Islam. If you are not aware of that, let's me just say that as a muslim, i see that there are numerous occasion where Islam is being maligned or misreported by the western media.

But. personally, if this man really keep it to himself, than i'm just glad as well that he have got away to another place where he can practise his belief freely.

But, on that matters, I leave it to Allah to decide....

 

[Noora_z3]

Salam

Bro Ansar, u r doing a very good job here, Masha Allah, May Allah protect you.

I personally think all muslims at this point must understand this issue as best as possibal, it will be brought up again n again by so called "modern muslims" n non-muslims, n if we dont know our own religion then who would?! Allah wont send his angels to defend us.

Wassalam

 

[Nicola]

Nicola,

I would reserved my judgement on what actually transpired and what actually have been reported by the western media. Opps, especially the western media when it comes to reporting on Islam. If you are not aware of that, let's me just say that as a muslim, i see that there are numerous occasion where Islam is being maligned or misreported by the western media.

That could be said for the people who sit in Judgment of this man also and judge the man should be murdered. It should work both ways IMO.

But. personally, if this man really keep it to himself, than i'm just glad as well that he have got away to another place where he can practise his belief freely.

Yes so am I.

But, on that matters, I leave it to Allah to decide....

and so it should be...but some men take it on themselve to act on Gods behalf...Yes, I agree we should leave it for God to decide on judgement day, after all it is God who gives us the freewill to choose which path to follow in this life not man.

 

[Syed Nizam]

So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?
If only life was that simple!

Honestly, the same can be applied towards any other religion as well. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduisms...etc. I cant see ur logic of applying it only towards the muslim? This is prejudice, ain't it?

I believed after seeing so many death threats to westerners because of those cartoons..this was an Islamic law because of the insults to Islam and Mohammed..also Salman Rushdie what did he do wrong according to Islamic law..it must have been something serious to be issued a death sentance, they must have been acting on some form of Islamic law for them to have issued one.. What in the koran gives them this right...I would like to know?

The mass simply reacted that way due to their reverence to the Prophet (pbuh). Most muslims do revered the Prophet (pbuh) more than their own lives. So, their reaction towards such a blasphemy is very well expected. To holds a rally or a mass protest is nothing wrong. But, again and again, in any mass protest things can turns out really bad. About that death threats, again, what do u means by many? About Salman Rushdie, that guy is really a nut case. I have read his book the Satanic Verses and i'm amused at his level of intellect in it.... That book contains nothing but recycled garbage..., of those people who chooses to slanders islam, the religion & the Prophet (pbuh).

 

[Nicola]

=Syed Nizam;284514]Honestly, the same can be applied towards any other religion as well. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduisms...etc. I cant see ur logic of applying it only towards the muslim? This is prejudice, ain't it?

Of course this applies to all religionsNo religious laws are practiced perfect by anyone..thats what I am meaning...When someone tells me that Islamic laws cannot be abused...Like I said in my earlier post...if only life was that simple! All reglious laws are abused at sometime or another...Ever single religion! Is open to abuse.

No it is not if you study the law. But yeah, someone who is completely ignorant of the laws may indeed think they are easy to abuse.

This is what I was told in the above quote...We weren't actually talking about other religions but Apostasy in Islam concering Islamic law.

But if you want to go ahead..nothing is stopping you discussing other religions..If we start debating other religions and their problems within this thread I would agree with you totally that all have people who abuse their religious laws.....I'm not the one denying it!... but it would bring this thread off topic again and then it would need to be brought back on topic..or probably need to be split.
So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?
If only life was that simple!

I already know the law of God in the Bible is abused...I can see problems in my choosen religion..Though I don't live with rose tinted glasses on.

The mass simply reacted that way due to their reverence to the Prophet (pbuh). Most muslims do revered the Prophet (pbuh) more than their own lives. So, their reaction towards such a blasphemy is very well expected.

IMO this looks like a kind of idolation in it's self.

To holds a rally or a mass protest is nothing wrong. But, again and again, in any mass protest things can turns out really bad. About that death threats, again, what do u means by many? About Salman Rushdie, that guy is really a nut case. I have read his book the Satanic Verses and i'm amused at his level of intellect in it.... That book contains nothing but recycled garbage..., of those people who chooses to slanders islam, the religion & the Prophet (pbuh).

I have no problems with peacful mass protests at all, I agree with freedom of speach for all people in every country..But I do have an issue when some Muslims where calling for death to us westerners..when it was only one mans decision to publish some cartoons. Salman Rushdie deserving a death sentence over his head for something that he writes in a book...I find it a strange kind of ideology.

 

[Syed Nizam]

Salam

Bro Ansar, u r doing a very good job here, Masha Allah, May Allah protect you.

I personally think all muslims at this point must understand this issue as best as possibal, it will be brought up again n again by so called "modern muslims" n non-muslims, n if we dont know our own religion then who would?! Allah wont send his angels to defend us.

Wassalam

Sis Noora,

Correct me if i'm wrong. I taught that there is no such terms such as "modern muslim" or "conservative muslim". There are but only one muslim.. & that means the submission to Allah. We might not shared the same view on some issues but i'm certained that our beliefs & our convictions nevertheless are just the same.

May Allah blessed us in this life & the hereafter. Ameeen.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nimrod

Your last post looked like you are starting to take some of the replies personally.

You ARE doing a great job. Don't let anything get under your skin.

Thanks for your kind comments and your advice.

Where the problem lies, I suspect, is that your replies seem to answer the questions in light of Islam, as it should be [practiced].
Islam, as it IS [practiced], is an entirely different matter.

If you add the word practiced as I did above, then I agree with the statement. The difference being that there are not multiple Islams, Islam is just what is in the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

At times it can be frustrating from both sides of the fence, if you know what I mean.

Absolutely.

We live in a world where there isn’t a single "true" Islamic state that exists. Is it still fair to execute people because they later decide they agree more with the Bible than they do Islam, in light of the world we live in today?

There is no way anyone can say that Afghanistan (under the Taliban rule) allowed things to exist so that a person had a fair chance at making an informed decision as to the choice of religious beliefs.

I agree that rulings must be considered in light of contemporary events and the world situation, as the Prophet himself demonstrated. There is a need for a lot of reform in the Muslim world (not Islam) and this gets into discussions on ways to reform the Ummah.

In the real world this is what the Western world sees (At least in my small part of it):

Muslims are easily riled, they become violent when they get riled, they do a very poor job of policing their ranks, and they want to kill folks who get tired of it, even their own.

I'm aware of the prevalent stereotypes and I think it results largely from the spotlight fallacy. I think we need to combat these stereotypes and help westerners understand that the problem is with some Muslims, not with Islam, and then we can all take steps towards eradicating the problems in the Muslim world.

If any State is going to start executing folks for converting away from Islam then, by all means, address those who have converted/perverted Islam into what it is not as well.

There is a verse in the Bible, “Don’t condemn your fellow man for the speck of saw dust in his eye, when you have a plank stuck in your own eye”

Agreed.

Once again, thanks for your post.

Regards