Islam changed?

[DonTheWise]

All right, so I pretty much get the fact that God exists, because to me the idea that the universe was created because of a giant blast is somewhat ill. What caused the blast and who created the atoms, or the star that caused it etc.

But there's a question that's been lingering in my mind for quite sometime. The Bible claims Jesus to be Divine and says that he is the son of God; or atleast the Christians claim it does.

Now in Islam, you beleive that God, Allah, has no son nor a father mother or siblings. You also claim that the Bible had been changed hundreds of years ago by the Church and they beleived that Jesus was in fact the son of God because he performed miracles, like bringing the dead back to life.

My first question is simple: How do Muslims know that the Quran was not changed a long time ago? People would answer to me and say that you memorised the Quran to keep it safe from such changes. But comon, what if it was hanged at the time it was written down on paper by the Kaliphites. It was so easy to change the Quran that time, he could have just kept the others' mouths shut and have conducted the change. And you wouldn't know a thing about it...

So, why are you so sure that the Quran speaks the truth? What if Christians were right all along. Ignoring the fact that there are several forms of Christianity ofcourse.

Another thing, if I may, please forgive me, but where's the proof that the Quran was the word of God? Muhammad (PBUH) could just be a genius who thought of all this. Even if the Quran does not promote violence or anything horrible, it could have been man's work. And don't answer that there are technological and biological knowledge written n the Quran as it is a fact that all we are discovering today is a repeat of what the ancients discovered. In short, history is in fact repeating itself.


I forgot which Kaliphite was ruling at the time the Quran was writn on paper, could someone clarify this aswell?

Thank you,

Don.​

 

[YM Usrah Umar]

im gonna try to answer these to the best of my ability, forgive me if it doesnt make sense or something

All right, so I pretty much get the fact that God exists, because to me the idea that the universe was created because of a giant blast is somewhat ill. What caused the blast and who created the atoms, or the star that caused it etc.

you cant really say it just randomly happened, out of the blue BANG...the universe was made and randomly appeared? that jus doesnt make any sense, absolute nonsense in my opinion.

My first question is simple: How do Muslims know that the Quran was not changed a long time ago? People would answer to me and say that you memorised the Quran to keep it safe from such changes. But comon, what if it was hanged at the time it was written down on paper by the Kaliphites. It was so easy to change the Quran that time, he could have just kept the others' mouths shut and have conducted the change. And you wouldn't know a thing about it...

So, why are you so sure that the Quran speaks the truth? What if Christians were right all along. Ignoring the fact that there are several forms of Christianity ofcourse.

Its not just memorisation...look at the old copies of the quran and compare them...why dont you (if you want) take time out and compare an old quran to a new one? if the kaliphates had changed it, then you would notice it.

now coming on to the bible...i think you already know what im goin to say but have you read the bible compared to the quran? its narrated in 3rd person....wasnt ot writtin by moses (pbuh)? if it was why in 3rd person? and also just look at some many verses in the bible, grammer errors, ridicolous statements from jesus (pbuh) and shameful storys of the prophets

Another thing, if I may, please forgive me, but where's the proof that the Quran was the word of God? Muhammad (PBUH) could just be a genius who thought of all this. Even if the Quran does not promote violence or anything horrible, it could have been man's work. And don't answer that there are technological and biological knowledge written n the Quran as it is a fact that all we are discovering today is a repeat of what the ancients discovered. In short, history is in fact repeating itself.

U said it already but also he was illiterate, again look at the saying of the prophet muhammed (pbuh) and then compare them to the quran....its different

I forgot which Kaliphite was ruling at the time the Quran was writn on paper, could someone clarify this aswell?

I think it was Abu Bakr (RA)

 

[DonTheWise]

Its not just memorisation...look at the old copies of the quran and compare them...why dont you (if you want) take time out and compare an old quran to a new one? if the kaliphates had changed it, then you would notice it.

How do you find an old copy of the Quran and read it? Aren't they kept at museums or in special safes or mosques under a glass? I don't think you can actually read it if they are. And you're misinterpreting me. What if at the time they came to Write down the Quran they changed the verses? So, like, before they ever made a copy of the Quran on paper they changed it?

 

[moonseo]

As salam o Alaykum
All Friends we are offering Online Quran Teaching with our Qualified Quran Tutors. we are Teach Quran Learning, Quran Reading, Quran Recitation, Quran Tafseer, Quran Memorization, Quran Tajweed. Through to Teachingquran.com

 

[Ramadhan]

How do you find an old copy of the Quran and read it? Aren't they kept at museums or in special safes or mosques under a glass? I don't think you can actually read it if they are. And you're misinterpreting me. What if at the time they came to Write down the Quran they changed the verses? So, like, before they ever made a copy of the Quran on paper they changed it?

The proof is right now all and every muslims from a nuclear scientist in silicon valley to an illiterate farmer in remote areas of Indonesia read and memorise the same qur'an.

Had anything changed, surely they would have been countless different set of the qur'an.

Remember that during prophet Muhahamm SAW he taught not just one or two shahaba but many shahaba to memorise the qur'an in full. And when he died, many has memorised them down to a t and dot. Had any changed, surely the changes would have been transferred to the next person and next and next, resulting in countless versions of qur'an after 1,400 years. But that is not the case, as you have witnessed today.

 

[Considering]

My first question is simple: How do Muslims know that the Quran was not changed a long time ago? People would answer to me and say that you memorised the Quran to keep it safe from such changes. But comon, what if it was hanged at the time it was written down on paper by the Kaliphites.

The Old Testament is unquestionably the work of many hands. Only very conservative Orthodox Jews believe the Torah is literally the word of God. Most scholars will tell you there are several different traditions composited into the Torah (e.g., the Elohist, the Yawhist, etc.)

The New Testament is also unquestionably the work of many hands. Obviously, there are four Gospel authors, and they do not always agree. There are in fact no two manuscripts that are identical, though this is not as important as some say (in my opinion). Obviously, Paul did not write all the letters attributed to him (the Greek is quite different), the author of 1st Peter is not the author of 2nd Peter, etc.

So the case for Biblical corruption is clear. Now I believe that is not a "case closed" kind of thing because the important point is the tradition, at least in the Catholic/Orthodox world, though in Protestant circles, scripture is everything.

That's point one.

Point two is that the Old Testament was an oral tradition for centuries before it was written down. The New Testament was likely an oral tradition for decades...the earliest written Gospel was probably Mark, which might be as late as 70 AD. Paul's letter to the Thessolonians, which is likely the oldest part of the New Testament, might be earlier but it's still at least 20 years after the events it describes.

The Qur'an went from purely oral form to written form shortly after the Prophet's death. Prior to his death, and continuously since, there have been thousands of people who've had it memorized. At any point in the last 1300-odd years, you could find tens of thousands of people who know the entire Qur'an by heart (today it is in the millions).

So how could it be changed? You would have to have all of those people agree. In fact, the event that lead to the writing down of the Qur'an was the fact that many hafiz (those who'd had the Qur'an memorized) were killed in a battle and there was fear the Qur'an might be lost.

It is not really possible that the Qur'an was changed. You would need a conspiracy of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. The key point I think you need to understand is that the Qur'an transmission is primarily oral, from generation to generation. That is the preserver, not the written form. Don't get me wrong - the written form is important (and makes it much more accessible), but one hafiz to another is truly how it is preserved.

To give you an example, suppose someone today wanted to change the lyrics to "America the Beautiful". He would need to go to millions of people and either force them to agree and keep it quiet or kill them. It's just not possible.

Another thing, if I may, please forgive me, but where's the proof that the Quran was the word of God? Muhammad (PBUH) could just be a genius who thought of all this. Even if the Quran does not promote violence or anything horrible, it could have been man's work.

There is something to what you say. But you are positing a man able to compose a brilliant work of art (the high point of Arabic) that is completely internally consistent, all in his head.

All tradition describes Muhammad as illiterate. Could later generations have made that up? Perhaps, but generally people invent things about their heroes that are positive, not negative.

If you study the Qur'an, you'll find there are some remarkable consistencies, similarities, and meanings that make it unlikely that one man composed it all. For example, Jesus is mentioned by name 25 times. Adam is mentioned by name exactly 25 times. Is that a coincidence? Maybe, but there are many such "coincidences" (that is just one I remember off the top of my head).

Today, with a word processor, the Internet, enormous computational power, etc., someone could write a long book and make sure that Adam and Jesus are mentioned exactly the same number of times (which has theological significance). But in the 7th century?

Keep in mind the Qur'an was not something Muhammad worked on for years and then revealed all at once. Each chapter is a separate revelation and was spread at the time it was revealed, so Muhammad would have had to keep everything internally consistent over many decades, all in his head. A Surah was revealed and then 10 years later, a different Surah is revealed. Muhammad would need to have kept everything consistent between them - possible? Maybe, but extremely unlikely.

Yes, I agree, ultimately there is an element of faith.

I advise that you pray to God, in whatever tradition you come from, and ask Him to guide you to the truth. God will not lead you astray.

 

[Getoffmyback]

I was never convinced about the scientific miracles in the quran . I went to a site dedicated to scientific miracles and they used the verse 19:57 to refer to the launch of the russian sputnic!

The verse 19:57 says : we raised him up to a high place.

Seriously What is this! The says we raised him not it. And if you read previous verses they are talking about moses and Idris and other prophets. And So on they used 19:57 to refer to the year when sputnic was launched! There is nothing miraculous about that!

 

[Who Am I?]

Also keep this in mind, that I am taking from a New Muslims class I am attending at masjid.

If Muhammad (pbuh) had made up the Qu'ran, he would have mentioned himself by name a lot more than his name appears in the Qu'ran. Most authors tend to mention themselves, or at least a caricature of themselves. So if Muhammad (pbuh) had really made up the Qu'ran, he would factor in it a lot more.

That's my take on it. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Perseveranze]

Peace,

I don't have time to answer all atm, in a hurry but I will answer one of them for you.

1. The parts that were "added in" the Bible haved today been exposed by Christian Scholars and they've noted those parts as (Added in). There is a reason why there are always new revisions of the Bible, but to clarify for you i'd suggest you watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOZSrPF5GNo

2. IF someone added/deleted "parts from the Quran" we would know about it, due to some kind of inconsistency in the actual speech. Right now, every aspect of the Quran has been/is being studied, and one thing that is very clear is, the source that the Quran came from is one. Had someone else tried to add something, you would've seen it because there would be some kind of change of style or inconsistency.

 

[Salahudeen]

All right, so I pretty much get the fact that God exists, because to me the idea that the universe was created because of a giant blast is somewhat ill. What caused the blast and who created the atoms, or the star that caused it etc.

But there's a question that's been lingering in my mind for quite sometime. The Bible claims Jesus to be Divine and says that he is the son of God; or atleast the Christians claim it does.

Now in Islam, you beleive that God, Allah, has no son nor a father mother or siblings. You also claim that the Bible had been changed hundreds of years ago by the Church and they beleived that Jesus was in fact the son of God because he performed miracles, like bringing the dead back to life.

My first question is simple: How do Muslims know that the Quran was not changed a long time ago? People would answer to me and say that you memorised the Quran to keep it safe from such changes. But comon, what if it was hanged at the time it was written down on paper by the Kaliphites. It was so easy to change the Quran that time, he could have just kept the others' mouths shut and have conducted the change. And you wouldn't know a thing about it...

So, why are you so sure that the Quran speaks the truth? What if Christians were right all along. Ignoring the fact that there are several forms of Christianity ofcourse.

Another thing, if I may, please forgive me, but where's the proof that the Quran was the word of God? Muhammad (PBUH) could just be a genius who thought of all this. Even if the Quran does not promote violence or anything horrible, it could have been man's work. And don't answer that there are technological and biological knowledge written n the Quran as it is a fact that all we are discovering today is a repeat of what the ancients discovered. In short, history is in fact repeating itself.


I forgot which Kaliphite was ruling at the time the Quran was writn on paper, could someone clarify this aswell?

Thank you,

Don.​

Can I just ask the question, all the prophets before Jesus, what were they sent to their people with? what was the crime that the people of previous prophets were committing? And what was the main message of those prophets? As I understand it, all the prophets before Jesus called to the worship of 1 god without any partners and this is exactly what Muhammed (saw) called to also, so to me it indicates the Qur'an is reliable since it is in accordance with what the other prophets came with.

I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

Do not have any other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

Does what Christians say Jesus preached contradict everything that the prophets brought before him? Does what Muhammed (saw) preached confirm everything the prophets before him preached? There is only 1 God and he alone is worthy of worship. This is what All the prophets called to before, he never came with anything new, it is Jesus according to Christians who came with something completely new, the idea of God having a son.

But we as Muslims believe this is a lie upon him and he was actually a messenger/prophet like those messengers before him who called to the worship of 1 God alone without any partners.

 

[sabr*]

Peace be to you:

Sister Considering:

The following are the facts regarding the Quran without the I Think's

The Facts about the Quran​

The Quran ( القرآن‎ ), is the central religious text of Islam which Muslims consider the verbatim word and final testament of the one Creator of All Existence.

Muslims believe that the Quran was inspired and revealed through the angel Jibril (Gabriel) from Allah to Prophet Muhammad gradually over a period of approximately twenty-three years beginning in 610 CE.

The revelation began with the Prophet Muhammad was forty, and concluded when he was 63 years old (633 CE), the year of his death.

Muslims believe that the Qur'an was precisely memorized, recited and exactly written down by Prophet Muhammad (

) companions (Sahabas), after each revelation have been dictated by Prophet Muhammad
(

)

Shortly after Prophet Muhammad (

) death the Quran was compiled into a single book by order of the first Khaliph Abu Bakr at the suggestion of the second Khaliph successor Umar.

Hafsa who was Prophet Muhammad (

) widow and Umar's daughter, was entrusted with that Quran text after the second Caliph Umar died. When Uthman, the third Caliph, began to notice slight differences in Arabic dialect he asked Hafsa to allow him to use the text in her possession to be set as the standard dialect, the Quraish dialect now known as Fus’ha (Modern Standard Arabic)

Before returning the text to Hafsa Uthman made several thousand copies of Abu Bakr's redaction and, to standardize the text, invalidated all other versions of the Quran. This process of formalization is known as the Uthmanic recension. The present form of the Quran text is accepted by most scholars as the original version compiled by Abu Bakr.

Source : ibn Kathir, Encyclopedia of the Quran

 

[Ubeyde]

Just want to say this:


"Is there God?

Answer: Yes, uncategorically, no doubt, scientifically and or otherwise.

Proof: Scientific evidence(s)- Physics has tought us of some of the Fundamental laws of the Universe, to which every particle and planet must abide. One of the fundament principles of Physics is that Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted into other forms. This Law underlies that there must be God. For if there was no God, then how was Energy first created let alone the Universe.

Also, Physicists tell us of the theory of how the Universe came to be, 'The Big Bang'. This theory is used as an excuse not to believe in God. The theory states that a Quark ( the Fundamental Particle) had gained absolutely collosal amounts of energy in a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, etc. of a second.

This theory leaves the door of belief wide open. All one has to do is ask the following questions:
1. How or where did that Quark come to existance.
2. Who or what provided the energy to begin the process ( Remember the Energy Laws)
3. Time- who created time at pre-creation

Also, another perspective (based upon Dr. Zakir Naik's explanation)

In Mathematics there is to be found a theory entitled the "Theory of Probability". This theory gives the probability of an event taking place or not taking place. For example, if one is to flip a coin- there is 50% chance for it to land "heads" and 50% chance for it to land "tails". Let's say that we want to find the probability of getting three heads in succesion. Getting "heads" gives us 50% chance, then if we flip again the chance is still 50% but because it is dependent on the first event be "heads", therefore, we need to multiply 0.5 (50%) by 0.5 to give us 0.25 or 25%. Similarly, to toss the coin the third time we must multiply 0.25 by 0.5 which is 0.125 or 12.5%.

If we apply the Theory of Probability to the Qur'an, and assume that a person has guessed all of the information that is mentioned in the Qur'an that which is unknown at the time the Qur'an was revealed.

At the time the Qur'an was first revealed, people had different theories of the Earth's shape. Some believed it to be flat, or triangular, quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, spherical, etc. If we assume that there could be a total of 30 different ideas on the structure of the Earth, then the chances of the Qur'an saying it is spherical is 1/30.

The light of the moon was also another aspect which was revealed. Some believed the moon to generate its own light, others believed it was reflected. The answer is that the moon appears to be illuminated due to reflection of light. So, the probabilty of the Qur'an revealing this fact is 0.5 or 1/2.

Also, up till the few decades, people did not know the structure of every living being- i.e. made of water. If we define 'living being'- this could be wood, plants, fish, steel, gold, humans, every catologued and unknown specie of animal, etc. The possible options could amount to let's say 100,000. The chance that Qur'an is correct is 1/100000 (as a general value).

Therefore, the chances of the Qur'an being correct in just these cases (there are many more) is 1/30 * 1/2 * 1/100000 - or (0.000000167). The Qur'an reveals these things centuries before the technology was there to prove it scientifically.

The Qur'an reveals hundreds of things which were unknown at the time of revelation, and the chances that the Qur'an being correct guesses simultaneosly and not comprising of a single error if one can imagine is beyond human comprehension. Therefore, this in itself, is a proof to any logical person that the origin of the Qur'an is Divine (i.e. from Allah)."

From my book..

Also, if you believe that the Qur'an is or could have been made by a human- Allah Ta'ala mentions many times and challenges people and Djinn even together to create a Qur'an (recitation) like it- even if the oceans were oceans of ink you would be unable to.

 

[Ramadhan]

I was never convinced about the scientific miracles in the quran . I went to a site dedicated to scientific miracles and they used the verse 19:57 to refer to the launch of the russian sputnic! The verse 19:57 says : we raised him up to a high place. Seriously What is this! The says we raised him not it. And if you read previous verses they are talking about moses and Idris and other prophets. And So on they used 19:57 to refer to the year when sputnic was launched! There is nothing miraculous about that!

I have responded to this assertion of yours here: http://www.islamicboard.com/introduce-yourself/134307260-friendly-atheist-8.html

I have noticed one thing about you: in some threads in the comparative religion also, you keep quoting statements from random websites about Islam and Qur'an which has no basis at all.
And interestingly, you only brought up statements about qur'an that no one even has heard of, instead of bringing up discussions about the more established (even atheists can only say "it's coincidentals") scientific miracles of the Qur'an.
And even if you don't beleive in the scientific miracles of the qur'an, surely you believe in the qur'an itself as a miracle.

 

[Getoffmyback]

@ramadhan i posted here prior to posting on the other thread But my post here didn't show up So i thought this thread is restricted to other discussions thats Why i posted it again on another thead. It seems that posts here needs approval by mods or something.

 

[Futuwwa]

How do you find an old copy of the Quran and read it? Aren't they kept at museums or in special safes or mosques under a glass? I don't think you can actually read it if they are. And you're misinterpreting me. What if at the time they came to Write down the Quran they changed the verses? So, like, before they ever made a copy of the Quran on paper they changed it?

The first time the Quran that was compiled into one volume was during the reign of Caliph Othman ibn Affan, 10 to 20 years after Muhammed's death. However, individual surahs had been written down on paper already during Muhammed's lifetime, and been in wide circulation. Plus, lots and lots of people had learned surahs by heart. If Othman would have made any deliberate effort at changing the Quran, there's no way it would have gone unnoticed.