Islamic response to Atheist argument: Morality comes from survival instinct

fsmdude said:
Okay, if you insist. I Google: Islam+kill+apostate
10 seconds later.

Okay, here we go (I'm quoting from the Hadith too, whatever that mean?) All the verse come from these website under:

The Qur'an:
Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Sura (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." This verse is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously become Muslims to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim. Apostasy is always punished by death.

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Sura (2:217), Sura (9:73-74), Sura (88:21), Sura (5:54), and Sura (9:66).

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."


Website where it came from:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Qur.27anic_reference

http://www.********************/Authors/Arlandson/apostasy.htm

And of top of that, 2 real case in newpaper

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/society/damianlanigan/dec07/death-penalty.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2426314.ece
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neither addresses killing the believer who becomes an apostate.
you wrote:
the Qu'ran says to kill every muslim who leave islam for an another religion
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you did not mention the hadiths.
in fact, you will not find this anywhere in the qur'an.
 
snakelegs said:
neither addresses killing the believer who becomes an apostate.
you wrote:

you did not mention the hadiths.
in fact, you will not find this anywhere in the qur'an.
Click to expand...

How true. If the guy had said Hadith, it would be true but he said the Qur'an. Just proves his ignorance. I hope he reads the Islamic perspective posted by another poster.
 
:sl:
I think to some extent morality is part of a survival instinct but it depends on what you mean really. If it's morality as in taking life then yes I can see the linkage between survival instinct (Man vs sabretooth tigre - man's morality of taking life is used as a survival instinct ro fight the sabretooth tigre)

Morality is a fairly large area - it is possible to define but the linkages between survival instinct are not always that clear. It really depends on the situation.

In terms of religion; majority of the rulings (at least in Islam) all enforce and remind us of our morality (in its broader sense). If you can understand basic English, you'll be able to see that in the English translation of the Quran. I'm not going to bother refuting the ayats someone posted since if you give it a full read it actually describes the situation (aka context) - so if you are still seeing red when it is green, you need your eyes tested and should probably see a psychiatrist.
 
I know that the Qu'ran is the scripture behind Islam. But I don't know what the word Hadith mean?

I have choosen the part about apostate in the Qu'ran, but we could pick other parts that are... questionnable?

If you didn't see the part I was talking about (apostasy) in the website I've posted, we cannot neglect the fact that people can really be killed for that (look at newpaper links).
 
fsmdude said:
I know that the Qu'ran is the scripture behind Islam. But I don't know what the word Hadith mean?

I have choosen the part about apostate in the Qu'ran, but we could pick other parts that are... questionnable?

If you didn't see the part I was talking about (apostasy) in the website I've posted, we cannot neglect the fact that people can really be killed for that (look at newpaper links).
Click to expand...

Hadith is a collection of Sayings of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). There are authentic hadith and not so authentic hadith. I hope you do look at the link that Purest.... posted regarding apostasy in Islam and update yourself. I hope you don't get obsessed with a few newspaper clippings. Did you know some so-called Muslims flew planes into the world trade center? That wasn't very Islamic! If a Muslim does it, it doesn't mean it's alright in Islam to do it. There are Black Sheeps in every religion.
 
fsmdude said:
I know that the Qu'ran is the scripture behind Islam. But I don't know what the word Hadith mean?

I have choosen the part about apostate in the Qu'ran, but we could pick other parts that are... questionnable?

If you didn't see the part I was talking about (apostasy) in the website I've posted, we cannot neglect the fact that people can really be killed for that (look at newpaper links).
Click to expand...

i didn't look at the newspaper links.
the point is you made the statement that
the Qu'ran says to kill every muslim who leave islam for an another religion
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if you look at the parts i bolded in the verses you quoted you should be able to see that apostasy is not the subject, but violating a pact is the issue.
when you make statements such as the above, you should be sure you know what you're talking about.
am i saying apostasy is not a capital crime in islam? no, i am not. i am just saying that no where does the qur'an say what you said it does.
 
Morality coming from survival instincts is a stupid arguement.

Just because instincts makes us more co-operative as a group says nothing about morality especially in the case of "bad" collectives ie. the Mafia
 
I don't quite understand where your going with this. Why does the existence of a Mafia mean that the relative and variable morality we perceive did not encourage survival?
 
Isambard said:
Morality coming from survival instincts is a stupid arguement.
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And that is your arguement?

Just because instincts makes us more co-operative as a group says nothing about morality especially in the case of "bad" collectives ie. the Mafia
Click to expand...

If we talk about morality, we must first acknowledge intelligence & extelligence, and how the two source of morality come together. I think the fact that irrespective of religion, countries prisons reflect on average society trends exposes the suggestion that moral societies require a moral religion.
 

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