Woodrow
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If I had not found fault and fallacy in the Bible I would have stayed Christian.
Jesus(as) in Islam
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If I had not found fault and fallacy in the Bible I would have stayed Christian.
Woodrow
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If I had not found fault and fallacy in the Bible I would have stayed Christian.
Now, before this conversation goes too far. Please keep in mind that this is an Islamic Forum. We are Muslims and all of the Moderators are very faithful Muslims. Our goal of the forum is to show the truth about Islam. We do allow debate with other faiths, but it is essential that the debate does not become a promotion of any religion other than Islam.
For those who desire to learn about other religions, there are many web sites available to learn about virtualy any Faith. We as Muslims are encouraged to learn all we can and to only accept Islam with full knowledge and of our own choice.
It is my understanding that the intent of this thread is to show how we as Muslims View Isa(as), Let us stay with that intent.
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Woodrow
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For those who are not aware of it, there is a thread that goes into much detail as to what Islam teaches us about Isa(as).
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets-islam/1714-prophet-isa-jesus.html#post696662
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets-islam/1714-prophet-isa-jesus.html#post696662
JesusIsKing
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Woodrow
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One question at a time.
I believe the current political regime in Israel has become very militant. In my opinion it is becoming very similar to communism. Nearly 50% of Israels population claims to be either athiestic or agnostic. I do not see it as being a jewish state I see it as being very secular and with leaders that are trying to expand beyond the borders of Israel.
Now for Israels role in the world. Politicaly it is an independant nation and as such the outside world needs to respect it's right to self determination. At the same time I see the same rights are owed to the Palestinians. we can not recognize Israel and ignore Palestine. Conflict between the two is inevitable until all outside forces step out of the picture and allow the two people to come to a settlement agreed upon by both.
first i would not try to explain 4;157 as a stand alone ayyat. Second I am fairly new to Islam and do not consider myself well versed in tasfir, so I do have to qualify my words as being they are strictly my own impressions and spoken without scholastic authority.
I will put down a few translations of 157 and 158 and perhaps you will understand what I am trying to say.
Pickthal's Quran Translation
My opinion as to what happened is Isa(as) was spared an ignoble death and rose directly to heaven without the need of experiencing the trials of the grave. he did not have to rise from the dead because he did not die.
The people of the time and the witnesses were truly convinced that Isa(as) was crucified and did die on the cross. It is apparent that either a person some people thought to be Isa(as) did die on the cross or the people only thought somebody died on the cross, and that person was Isa(as).
However, Isa(as) did not die on the cross. People who failed to see and understand and accept the truth have continued to spread this fallacy about the true Isa(as)
This is my opinion and based only on my own interpretations. It could be in error, and not in accordance with the true message of the Qur'an Astragfirullah.
Re: Question
Well, C.S. Lewis, if quoted correctly, is mistaken. Maybe his quote is in context of debating the Biblical Jesus.
You see, what your saying is, you either believe Jesus is A, B or C, whilst in reality your restricting my choice between other options, I could believe Jesus is D.
I do not suscribe that Jesus was a Lier, nor a Lunatic, Authobillah, nor a God or God, rather I believe that he is a man accredited by God and through whom God done many good works.
I don't question Jesus, rather I question your sources from which you derive Jesus' Image from.
Regards,
Eesa.
Well, C.S. Lewis, if quoted correctly, is mistaken. Maybe his quote is in context of debating the Biblical Jesus.
You see, what your saying is, you either believe Jesus is A, B or C, whilst in reality your restricting my choice between other options, I could believe Jesus is D.
I do not suscribe that Jesus was a Lier, nor a Lunatic, Authobillah, nor a God or God, rather I believe that he is a man accredited by God and through whom God done many good works.
I don't question Jesus, rather I question your sources from which you derive Jesus' Image from.
Regards,
Eesa.
JesusIsKing
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Re: Question
Jesus lived, he claimed to be God, if you believe he was a good man or prophet, he would be a liar because he claimed to be God, You would have to say hes crazy because he's making all of these claims like "All who eat my flesh and drink my blood remain in me, and I in them" if you heard someone say things like that ummmm....... im pretty sure he would be a little differant from other people. But I would say he is the lord, and not the other two?
Jesus lived, he claimed to be God, if you believe he was a good man or prophet, he would be a liar because he claimed to be God, You would have to say hes crazy because he's making all of these claims like "All who eat my flesh and drink my blood remain in me, and I in them" if you heard someone say things like that ummmm....... im pretty sure he would be a little differant from other people. But I would say he is the lord, and not the other two?
Woodrow
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However, we are convinced he never said those words and that they came about long after he ascended to Heaven. Isa(as) was a beloved Prophet(PBUH) and it is inconceivable that he would have preached Blasphemy and Shirk.
Re: Question
Greetings and peace be with you JesusIsKing; and welcome to the forum,
I think we have to respectfully agree to disagree with our Muslim brothers and sisters about our beliefs in Jesus.
Maybe the greater question might be to ask how do the teachings of Jesus inspire you and what do they inspire you to do?
In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship
Eric
Greetings and peace be with you JesusIsKing; and welcome to the forum,
I think we have to respectfully agree to disagree with our Muslim brothers and sisters about our beliefs in Jesus.
Maybe the greater question might be to ask how do the teachings of Jesus inspire you and what do they inspire you to do?
In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship
Eric
Woodrow
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Eric did point out something very important. There are some very big differences between Muslims and Christians. One thing that is important to remember is that we do not accept the same writings as being the word of Allah(swt).
It is hard to understand each other when there is no common reference point.
Hear is a short interactive flash clip that will explain some of the major differences we have:
http://media.putfile.com/IslamChristianity-compared
Here is a short video that does explain the very basics of our faith
http://media.putfile.com/Pillars-of-Faith
Here is another interactive flash presentation that answers more questions in depth.
http://media.putfile.com/Divine-Quotes-from-the-Quran
Muslims do have tremendous Love for Isa(as) He was truly a wonderful Prophet(PBUH) Allah(swt) did perform great miracles to show that he was an annointed Prophet(PBUH) a Messiah.
From Surah 3 Al-Imran
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهاً فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ
45:
Muhsin Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."
Yusuf Ali: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
Shakir: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
Transliteration: Ith qalati almala-ikatuya maryamu inna Allaha yubashshiruki bikalimatinminhu ismuhu almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama wajeehanfee addunya wal-akhirati waminaalmuqarrabeen
Sahih International: [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].
We firmly believe the Qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt)
It is hard to understand each other when there is no common reference point.
Hear is a short interactive flash clip that will explain some of the major differences we have:
http://media.putfile.com/IslamChristianity-compared
Here is a short video that does explain the very basics of our faith
http://media.putfile.com/Pillars-of-Faith
Here is another interactive flash presentation that answers more questions in depth.
http://media.putfile.com/Divine-Quotes-from-the-Quran
Muslims do have tremendous Love for Isa(as) He was truly a wonderful Prophet(PBUH) Allah(swt) did perform great miracles to show that he was an annointed Prophet(PBUH) a Messiah.
From Surah 3 Al-Imran
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهاً فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ
45:
Muhsin Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."
Yusuf Ali: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
Shakir: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
Transliteration: Ith qalati almala-ikatuya maryamu inna Allaha yubashshiruki bikalimatinminhu ismuhu almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama wajeehanfee addunya wal-akhirati waminaalmuqarrabeen
Sahih International: [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].
We firmly believe the Qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt)
JesusIsKing
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Would you be willing to say that the Quaran says the Bible is uncorrupted?
Woodrow
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It indirectly states the Injil is uncorrupted. But, the Injil is not the NT it was the word given to Isa(as) and the people failed to preserve all of it.
JesusIsKing
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Was the injil also reffered to as the Gospel?
Woodrow
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No, although some translators, will use the word Gospel to mean Injil. Injil is a pure Arabic word Gospel comes from the old English word Godspele which came from the Teutonic Gott Spiele, it is actually a very new word in the history of linguistics and most likely did not make it into the English language until the late 1400s and in the form of Gospel not until the KJV.
Injil can be considered Gott Spiele in the sense of being God's(swt) Word, But it is not Gospel in the sense of being John. Mark, Mathew and Luke.
Addendum: Before this point gets brought up, I am aware that in Arabic Bibles used by Arabic Christians Injil is used to refer to the Books of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. However as Muslims we would say that is fallacy as we do not believe those books were the direct words recited by Allah(swt)
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JesusIsKing
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Doesnt the Quaran say specificly that God gave Jesus the Gospel? and Moses with the law?
Woodrow
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No. it specificaly states that Allah(swt) gave Jesus the Injil it is noted that many translators do use the English word gospel to refer to the Injil
وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَى آثَارِهِم بِعَيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ
46:
Muhsin Khan: And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).
Yusuf Ali: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Pickthal: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
Transliteration: Waqaffayna AAala atharihimbiAAeesa ibni maryama musaddiqan lima baynayadayhi mina attawrati waataynahual-injeela feehi hudan wanoorun wamusaddiqan limabayna yadayhi mina attawrati wahudan wamawAAithatanlilmuttaqeen
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ
47:
Muhsin Khan: Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.
Yusuf Ali: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
Pickthal: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
Transliteration: Walyahkum ahlu al-injeeli bimaanzala Allahu feehi waman lam yahkum bimaanzala Allahu faola-ika humu alfasiqoon
Keep in mind no Translation is the Qur'an and no Translation is accurate, they are all just approximations. There is no English word that corresponds to Injil.
However, since the Injil was given by God(swt) it can be understood as being the word of God(swt) so it can be said for the sake of understanding that the Injil is the "word of God" or Gott Spiele or gospel. However because a writing is the word of God(swt) it does not mean it is the Injil. As the Qur'an is also the word of God(swt) so technicaly in English it would be appropriate to also call the Qur'an, "Gospel" in English. Although, since most English speaking people are aware as to what the Qur'an is, to call the Qur'an the Gospel would be seen as very confusing and it is much better to call it the Qur'an, as that is a very specific "Word of God" or gospel.
Now, since the Injil no longer exists, there is nothing to compare it with in English. There is nothing in English that Injil can translate into, so the only way to translate it is to use a word that comes close to the definition of Injil. Most translators choose to use gospel as that is usually understood as meaning the "Word of God(swt)"
However, Injil is definetly not the same as Gospel as thought of in terms of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. Those are the words of the Apostles and not Injil.
With Musa(PBUH) and the Torah. The Hebrew Torah and the Arabic Tauret are essentialy the same word. The English equivelent is Law, however here English speaking People are very much aware that Torah specificaly means the "The Law of God(swt) that was given to Musa(PBUH) so there is not as much confusion in using the Term Law. Although either Tauret or Torah would be more exact. We do not believe that the Tauret as it exists today is still fully intact. But, personaly, I find little in it that would be in violation of the Qur'an. So, my feeling is it has not undergone as much of a change as other books have. But that is just my opinion. Astragfirullah
The above Qur'an Quotes are Surah 5:46 and Surah 5:47
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JesusIsKing
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"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).
Woodrow
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Point being?
I thought I had explained that clearly.
As I stated before there is no English word for Injil. Many Translators use the word gospel as a reference of some meaning to non-Arabic Readers. It is no more valid to call the Injil the gospel as it is to call the Qur'an the Gospel.
It is very difficult to use an English language translation of the Qur'an to discuss the Qur'an. Arabic, does not translate into English. there are some translations that are fair approximations.
There is no such thing as an English Language Qur'an. The Qur'an can not be written in English.
.
Woodrow
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Yes, Allah(swt) did send Isa(as) the Injil and the injil is the true unbreakble word of Allah(swt) However the people lost the message of the Injil and substituted it with the NT.
Notice that the Injil was sent to Isa(as) Was the NT sent to Isa(as)?, it was not even written until after Isa(as) ascended into Heaven. Why would John, Mark, Matthew and Luke be the ones to give the Message to Isa(as)
The Gospels of John, Mark, Luke and Matthew were the accounts of what they saw and not of the Words Allah(swt) gave to Isa(as). It is in very few places where we see anything that even resembles Allah(swt) said: ""
Re: Question
As I said, please read carefully,
The source you read from is what I question not Jesus, I question their authentiticy.
Regards
Eesa.
As I said, please read carefully,
The source you read from is what I question not Jesus, I question their authentiticy.
Regards
Eesa.