jesus knows no bible

[kidcanman]

Can we just get to the point - what exactly are you try to show here - the NT is not to be trusted as the word of God.

My issue does not concern weather or not the NT can be trusted as the word of god. I have argued that the NT should not be viewed as the word of god because of the fact that the apostles did not assert that their writings are inspired by god.

 

[Seeker1066]

My issue does not concern weather or not the NT can be trusted as the word of god. I have argued that the NT should not be viewed as the word of god because of the fact that the apostles did not assert that their writings are inspired by god.

Have you noticed that you are rather curt and slightly rude in your online persona?? Wich is wrong wether Muslim or Christian. That aside in Revelation Jesus is quoted as verifying that the book of revelation is indeed inspired of God. He also lays down penalties if but one word is added or one word is removed. Christians believe this extends to all the New testament but even if you disallow that it most indeed applies to Revelations. This invalidates your whole premise.

Revelation 22 (New International Version)

Revelation 22
The River of Life
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
Jesus Is Coming
7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

 

[kidcanman]

in Revelation Jesus is quoted as verifying that the book of revelation is indeed inspired of God.

in revelations john is explaining about an encounter with an angel. the quotes from the angel are the words of god. but when john is not quoting the angel and is simply explaining the story. those words are not inspired by god. so the book of revelations contains the words of god when john quotes the angel, but the whole book itself is not the words of god.

He also lays down penalties if but one word is added or one word is removed.

jesus is speaking of the quotes from the angel and is not referencing the book of revelation in any way.

Christians believe this extends to all the New testament but even if you disallow that it most indeed applies to Revelations. This invalidates your whole premise.

christians take these types of quotes out of context all the time and use them as evidence to validate claims that they can not otherwise legitimately validate. when read in context we realize that jesus is not even talking about Revelations, let alone the entire NT.

Revelation 22 (New International Version)

Revelation 22
The River of Life
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
Jesus Is Coming
7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

what many people may not realize is that many of the verses in Revelations 22 are in quotation marks. that is because revelations is a story written by john in which an angel speaks to him and he quotes what the angle said.

When john quotes the angel he is quoting the words of god. and when jesus says, "if anyone takes...", the "book" he is refering to is the quotations from the angel.

Many of the quotes are of the angel repremanding 7 churches (the testimony for the churches) and prophecizing about plagues that will befall the churches if they do not amend their ways (i.e. the plaques written in this book). however revelations is written by john. so in many parts of the book he is not quoting the angel. neither jesus nor john claims that these parts (john's story minus the quotes from the angel) are from god.

i highlighted the quote, "i, jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches", to show exactly what jesus is referencing when he talks about the book of prophecy. jesus is referencing the quotes from the angel that john recoreded. jesus is not referencing any of john's story besides the quotes. it is the quotes from the angel that are the book of prophecy; not Revelations. jesus is not refering to johns words in any way. revelations is a writing from john in which he quotes some words of god.

 

[mkh4JC]

That's some amazing gymnastics with the text you just did there. What about this passage:

'If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.' I Corinthians 14: 37.

 

[kidcanman]

That's some amazing gymnastics with the text you just did there.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you these testimonies".

The angel is quoted giving testimonies, prophecies, and warnings of plagues.

"whoever takes away from the prophecies...the plagues will befall them".

It is obvious that jesus is refering to the quotes of the angle's testimonies and not john's story. in the first place jesus mentioned that he sent the angel to give testimonies. secondly, john did not prophecy anything nor did he mention plagues; except when he was quoting the angel's testimonies.

No tricks are needed to reach this conclusion.

what is amazing is that people have been tricked into believing differently.

What about this passage:
'If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.' I Corinthians 14: 37.

The passage states i write the "commandments of the lord". This is the type of qualifiers needed in order to say that words are inspired. The problem is a large portion of paul's letters is not commandments and he does not qualify those portions. Much of his letters is him expressing anger, him talking about the sins of the church, and him verbalizing his ideas about christian theology.

"the things I write unto you are the commandments".

If you apply this statement to paul's enire letter the statement won't make sense because the letter is not full of commandments only.

If you put the statement into context then you see that prior to the statement paul gives a commandment. If you read the entire letter you realize that some of the church members were questioning paul's authority and so he made that statement in order to make it clear that the commandment that he just gave is not from his own reasoning, but from god.

The implication of 1 Corinthians 14: 37 is that some of his other remarks in his letters (particularly those that are not commandments) are not from god.

He even makes statements where he assert that what he is writing is not from god. For example 2 corinthians 11: 17-18; 23-24, "In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the lord would, but as a fool. Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast...Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one etc. etc. etc.".

in this instance #1 he is not giving a commandment. #2 you can't state that he asserts he is speaking for god when he says he is not talking as the lord would.


The commandments that paul expresses in his letters are inspired by god. Not the entire letters. Corithians contains the words of god, but the letters themselves are not the words of god.

In 1 corinthians 7:10 paul says," To the married I give this command (not I, but the lord):...To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):...

So there are also commands in paul's letters that are not made on behalf of god. It's possible that in 1 corinthians 14 paul was refering to the commands that he was most recently speaking of. i will give you the benifit of the doubt, however, and grant that all of his commands in his letters besides 1 are from god. Never the less he does not assert that the actuall letters are entirely from god.

 

[Seeker1066]

"I, Jesus,"

Hmmm who says this again???

 

[kidcanman]

Hmmm who says this again???

I understood that jesus said it from your first post and that's what i responded to.

 

[Grace Seeker]

otherwise if there are no counter arguments then what i have written can be tentatively viewed as fact.

By you perhaps.

everything i have posted can be objectively rationalized. if i posted something that cannot be objectively rationalized then cite it. opinions cannot be challenged because they are subjective. i have written nothing that cannot be objectively challenged. if i have then cite it.

I submit the above statement is itself an example of an opinion. To cite all of the opinions that you have given would be to double the size of this thread.

i just want to clarify the fact that you agree that the NT is not the inspired words of god.

You don't present yourself as one who "just" wants to do anything one thing. You definitely come across more as one who has an agenda, though I've yet to figure out what it actually is.

I've said that I don't consider the Bible, as a whole, to be the dictated WORD of God. It is a record of the revelation of God as understood by inspired but imperfect men, sometimes they make efforts to record words that God specifically inspired them to write and sometimes they write simply as they are inspired, these are two different forms of inspiration that requires discernment on the part of the reader, but all of it is at some level inspired.

I reject categorically as an unsubstantiated a priori assumption on your part the implication that for a passage of scripture to be inspired the author of it must stated, "this is God's word on the following subject....."

 

[kidcanman]

Hmmm who says this again??

16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Assumed that your assertion was factual when I first read these verses so I overlooked the fact that verse 18 is not in quotation marks.

That would indicate that John is not quoting anybody and that the words of verse 18 are the words of John; not the words of Jesus.

So by the records of the New International Version of the NT John said those words and not Jesus.

It does not matter who said the verse because I have proven why the word "book" in the verse is not referring to "Revelation". The "book" referenced in the verse is the quoted words of the angel.

What's interesting is that in every other version of the NT that I read, there are no quotation marks. And verse 18 can be taken to be spoken by Jesus or by John depending upon the presence of quotation marks.

This matters because the translators made it seem like John is making bold statements in some passages of Revelation by adding quotation marks when in fact in many places there are no definitive reasons to add them. And in some places quotation marks are added where it seems that they do not belong.

That's neither here nor there when it comes to the fact that verse 18 is refering to the quotations of the angel and not John's story (Revelation).

 

[kidcanman]

I submit the above statement is itself an example of an opinion.

You failed to cite the reason why your submition is legitimate.

I've said that I don't consider the Bible, as a whole, to be the dictated WORD of God.

That is because you are well aware that most of the bible is the words of flawed men, and only a small portion is the dictated words of god.

It is a record of the revelation of God

The only parts "revelealed" by god are the parts dictaded by god. The rest is written by imperfect men.

sometimes they make efforts to record words that God specifically inspired them to write and sometimes they write simply as they are inspired

The phrase "simply as they are inspired" more readily implies that god inspired the apostles to write specific messages. That's the meaning you subtly expressed. But that's not the meaning you were pretending to express. You should have written that sometimes they make efforts to record words that God specifically inspired them to write and sometimes they write simply as inspired men.

That would have been a more honest statement.

these are two different forms of inspiration that requires discernment on the part of the reader, but all of it is at some level inspired.

There are two forms of inspiration and both forms are inspiration. But when you write that all of it is inspired, "at some level", you imply that the two forms of inspiration are the same forms but on different levels.

The truth is that the two forms of inspiratoin do not even apply to the same objects.

One form of inspiration is a dictation from god.

The other form has nothing to do with god's words. That form has to do with god having a relationship with man. You, Graceseeker, claim to have that form of insperation (a relationship with god). Will you assert that all of your words are on some level inspired by god (specifically dictated by god) because you have a relationship with god? I doubt it; it would be blasphemous if you were to do so.

It is also blasphemous for you to imply that all of the apostles words are on some level inspired by god because they have a relationship with god.

And it is dishonest of you to subtly imply that if you have a relationship with god then on some level all of your words are specifically dictated by god.

It is also incorrect to assert that the entire NT is on some level a dictation from god.

The reader must descern which parts of the NT are dictated by god, and which parts are the uninspired, normal words of everday christians who have "a relationship with god".

I reject categorically as an unsubstantiated a priori assumption on your part the implication that for a passage of scripture to be inspired the author of it must stated, "this is God's word on the following subject....."

You have already stated that the NT is the imperfect words of flawed men. It is common knowledge that if god directly inspired a message, then that message is perfect. It follows that you have already stated that the NT is not inspired by god.

The NT is mostly the words of inspired men like yourself.

I don't need a direct statement of inspiration. I'm simply pointing out that for the majority of the NT the authors did not even imply, with the benifit of the doubt, that their words were inspired by god.