i_m_tipu
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Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?
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Why do you want verses? You follow the Sikh religion and you go by what YOUR scriptures tell you. I have NO Sikh scriptures to give you showing Jesus is God, so anything I give you from the Bible means nothing to you, right?
Peace
AvarAllahNoor
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Why would you say that? Of course it means something or i'd not have bothered posting on here! I've read the Bible, as i used to attend a Bible study class. I enjoy learning about other religions. So yes, i'd love if you can provide some.
BTW - I sense anger in your posts, not very Christian like is it!
BTW - I sense anger in your posts, not very Christian like is it!
You might think that until you take into account that Jesus went through the temple with a whip, called the apostles thick and told the pharisees they were "white washed tombs".
AvarAllahNoor
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AvarAllahNoor
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The answer may come as a shock to many Christians but Jesus never said he is God. Actually, he said over and over that he is the son of God, which means that he is not God. Jesus made it clear in many ways that he is not God; that God is greater. “If you truly loved me you would rejoice to have me go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Jesus taught the mankind to pray to the Father, our Creator, not to himself. In fact, he did not mention himself in any way, nor did he indicate that we should pray in his name. His instructions were very specific, we are to pray to God alone.
The result of human errors and the misinterpretation of the Bible leads many Christians to believe that Jesus is God. The first verse of John is very misleading in explaining the word of God. “In the beginning was the Word; The Word was in God's presence, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). An objective reading of this verse raises the question: If the “Word” was in “God's presence”, how could it be God? When something is in your presence, it has to be, by definition, separate from you. The logical understanding of these lines is that the “Word” originates from God, or represents God. In addition, “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we have seen his glory: the glory of an only son coming from the Father filled with enduring love” (John 1:14). This verse makes a clear distinction between the Word and the Father. In no way does it argue for the divinity of Jesus. The Word comes from God, and thus reflects the glory of the Creator. This understanding is confirmed by the fact that throughout the Gospels, Jesus emphasizes that he did not speak on his own, that God told him what to say. This clearly indicates that Jesus delivered the Word of God, not that he was God. Here is an illustration, “whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me" (John 12:44-50). In John 8:40, Jesus describes himself as "a man who has told you the truth which I have heard from God”. Thus again we see that Jesus delivered the Word of God.
In Luke 9:35 Bible says, “This is my Son, My chosen One; listen to Him!” This clearly explains that when Jesus was on the earth he was the son of God (a soul send to this world by God) but not God Himself. If a person thinks he can sail his ship in a rain droplet then he is in oblivion. But if he believes he can sail his ship in the ocean then he is on the right track. If one worships Jesus then he is in oblivion as Jesus is not God but a part of God. One should not worship Jesus but One God only. The tenth Guru of Sikhs, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, “Those who worship me will be destined to hell. Consider me the son of God and worship my Father.” Jesus himself said to worship his father. When Jesus was on earth he refer to a supreme being high above as his Father. If Jesus is God then why would he refer to someone else as God? But even if you still believe that Jesus is God then look it at this way. Suppose he is God, then Christians are worshipping God and Sikhs are worshipping God. Now suppose Jesus is not God, then Sikhs are still worshipping God, are Christians? The answer is No.
The result of human errors and the misinterpretation of the Bible leads many Christians to believe that Jesus is God. The first verse of John is very misleading in explaining the word of God. “In the beginning was the Word; The Word was in God's presence, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). An objective reading of this verse raises the question: If the “Word” was in “God's presence”, how could it be God? When something is in your presence, it has to be, by definition, separate from you. The logical understanding of these lines is that the “Word” originates from God, or represents God. In addition, “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we have seen his glory: the glory of an only son coming from the Father filled with enduring love” (John 1:14). This verse makes a clear distinction between the Word and the Father. In no way does it argue for the divinity of Jesus. The Word comes from God, and thus reflects the glory of the Creator. This understanding is confirmed by the fact that throughout the Gospels, Jesus emphasizes that he did not speak on his own, that God told him what to say. This clearly indicates that Jesus delivered the Word of God, not that he was God. Here is an illustration, “whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me" (John 12:44-50). In John 8:40, Jesus describes himself as "a man who has told you the truth which I have heard from God”. Thus again we see that Jesus delivered the Word of God.
In Luke 9:35 Bible says, “This is my Son, My chosen One; listen to Him!” This clearly explains that when Jesus was on the earth he was the son of God (a soul send to this world by God) but not God Himself. If a person thinks he can sail his ship in a rain droplet then he is in oblivion. But if he believes he can sail his ship in the ocean then he is on the right track. If one worships Jesus then he is in oblivion as Jesus is not God but a part of God. One should not worship Jesus but One God only. The tenth Guru of Sikhs, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, “Those who worship me will be destined to hell. Consider me the son of God and worship my Father.” Jesus himself said to worship his father. When Jesus was on earth he refer to a supreme being high above as his Father. If Jesus is God then why would he refer to someone else as God? But even if you still believe that Jesus is God then look it at this way. Suppose he is God, then Christians are worshipping God and Sikhs are worshipping God. Now suppose Jesus is not God, then Sikhs are still worshipping God, are Christians? The answer is No.
Anger? Perhaps. More like exasperation. Your post has been answered again and again, and do you accept what is given you the third or fourth or hundredth time? NO! So why ask the 101th time for verses? You've seen them all before, right? And you specifically said, "I follow the Sikh religion so i'm going by what my scriptures tell me." So when you refuse to listen ("he that has ears to hear, let him hear"), and are going by your scriptures, I think my question is very reasonable --- Why do you want verses? Will you HEAR them? Will you BELIEVE them? Will it be a waste of my time to tell you the 101th time? I think I'm being very reasonable.
Peace
AvarAllahNoor
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Of course i shall listen or read in this case...it'll give me an insight of why you've come up with the notion that Jesus is God!
If it's already been posted please link me up so i can read it myself.
This is my 146th post. 99.9% of my posts deal with either (1) WHO Jesus is, or (2) WHAT HE DID--- the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ. The first category deals with His Deity and the Trinity, and the second category deals with His atoning Work of Redemption at Calvary. All Muslims reject BOTH. They deny He is God and they deny He died on the cross, let alone for our sins. As a Christian, I don't believe ANYONE will go to heaven who rejects those two essential doctrines.
Now, the Muslim thinks he is being faithful to Allah and avoiding the worst of sins by rejecting the Deity of Christ. And he is going to rely on his own repentance and good works and Allah's mercy to get his sins removed and make him fit for heaven. But according to Christian doctrine as taught in the Bible, ANYONE who rejects the Deity of Christ and His atoning death will die in his sins, and be condemned to pay for his own sins for all eternity.
If I gave you a million verses about the Deity of Christ, and if you believed every single one of them, but rejected His atoning death for YOUR sins, you would still end up dying in your sins and paying for them for all eternity. Or if I gave you a million verses about His atoning death for your sins, and if you believed every single one of them, but rejected His Deity, you would still end up dying in your sins and paying for them for all eternity. That just shows you how essential BOTH those truths are.
I don't have all the links but if you read all my posts you will find where I have repeated myself again and again about those two doctrines. I sincerely want EVERYONE on this board, and everywhere else, to go to heaven, or I wouldn't be spending the time to share these truths. But sometimes it gets tedious to keep repeating the same thing, only to have it all ignored or disputed. That is why I asked you, will you hear it? will you believe it? Why do you want the verses if it's just to argue about them and NOT believe them? Since they are not your scriptures, will the Bible verses mean any more to you than they do to Muslims who think they have been altered or corrupted or whatever?
You just posted a long interpretation of John 1:1, which cries out for a response. Guess what? I already gave one. If you saw it, you ignored it. Not sure I can find the link for that one either. You say Christians have misinterpreted their own scriptures. May I ask this? What gives you, a non-Christian who does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, a greater ability to properly interpret Christian scriptures than a Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit? It's like if I came along and told YOU what YOUR scriptures mean, contrary to what YOU think they do! You would laugh me to scorn, and properly so.
Peace
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AvarAllahNoor
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First of all we ALL have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us regardless of religion/caste/gender/sexual orientation etc etc!
As for muslims, i'm kind of clued up with what they believe about Jesus but, i'm here to undestand for myslef from a Christian not a muslim to why Jesus is percieved to be God by Christians, not to mock, like i've said just get a better understanding, is that wrong!
What is your authority for that statement? Your opinion? Your scripture? Or what? Please give me a verse or something to back it up.
According to the Bible, the Word of God, God gives His Spirit ONLY to believers in His Son, those who have been born again by the Spirit, and thus, regenerated by the Spirit.
John 7:
38. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.''
39. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 14:
16. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,
17. "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Under the Old Covenant, the Spirit of God came and went, usually resting UPON someone for special service or empowerment, but not abiding IN anyone permanently. For example, when the 70 elders were selected to assist Moses in judging the people, we read God saying, in Numbers 11:
17. "Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone.
24. So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord, and he gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tabernacle.
25. Then the Lord came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again.
But the Spirit was also taken away from people, like King Saul when he disobeyed God. And when David sinned with Bath-sheba, he prayed to God for forgiveness, saying, as recorded in Ps. 51:1-11,
1. Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions.
2. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin.
3. For I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.
4. Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge.
5. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
6. Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8. Make me to hear joy and gladness, That the bones which You have broken may rejoice.
9. Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities.
10. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11. Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me."
Really, only verse 11 was needed to make my point here, but the rest is for the benefit of anyone who thinks David did not sin because of some unscriptural doctrine about the infallibility of the prophets.
Under the New Covenant, the Spirit is IN believers to abide there forever (John 14:16-17, quoted above).
Finally, Paul, writing to believers, says in Romans 8:
8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The above (read the whole context of Romans 8) contrasts those who are "in the flesh" i.e., having not the Spirit, and those "in the Spirit" i.e., having the Spirit dwelling in them.
In view of the foregoing, there is NO basis whatsoever for you to make the unscriptural statement that you made above. So, let's strike that from the record and try again.
Peace
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AvarAllahNoor
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Sikh Scriptures
"Aval Allah noor upae-aa, Kudrat key sabh bandey, ek noor tey sabh jag upjia-aa, kaun bhaley ko mandey...
"First Allah created the Light. Then by His Creative Power He made all mortal beings. From that One Light, the entire universe came into being. So, who is good and who's bad!
You do realise religion is to bring people together and not segregate as many idiotic 'religious' people create!
What? What does the scripture you quote have to do with ALL having the Holy Spirit? You lost me.
Peace
AvarAllahNoor
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Is the Holy Sprit not God? He resides in all mankind, no? Unless you're some special entity that God has selected to only have this Holy Sprit within you?
No, He doesn't reside in all mankind. I gave you many Bible verses to show that. The one Sikh verse you gave me doesn't support your statement either. That one verse merely says Allah created "all mortal beings" etc. It says NOTHING about the Holy Spirit or whether He dwells in all mortal beings. Alternatively, it says nothing about Allah dwelling in all mortal beings. Try again.
When I give verses to show Jesus is God, at least that's what they say, even if you disagree with them. So, please, try again.
Peace
AvarAllahNoor
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BTW - I've seen no verses that state Jesus was God!
You seem to be a Christian who has tunnel vision, you refuse to aknowledge that all mankind has the essence of God (holy spirit) within us!!
1 - Pritam Basat Rid Mahi Khor: My Beloved (God) lives in the cave of my Heart (sggs 1121).
2 - Is Gufaa Mahi Akhut Bhandaaraa. Tis Vich Vasai Hari Alakh Apaaraa: Within the cave of Heart, there is an inexhaustible treasure. Within this cave, the Invisible and Infinite Lord abides.(sggs 124).
3 - Aatam Mahi Ram Ram Mahi Aatam Cheenas Gur Beechaaraa: God is in the Soul, and the Soul is in God. This is realized through the Gurmat (1153)
Plenty more if you require! Just remember this brother ''Maanas kee jaat sabai ekai pahchaanabo: Recognize the entire mankind as one family'' :thumbs_up
Gur Fateh!
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Aatam Mahi Ram Ram Mahi Aatam Cheenas Gur Beechaaraa: God (holy Sprit) is in the Soul, and the Soul is in God (holy Sprit). This is realized through the Gurmat (1153)
AvarAllahNoor
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It shows Christians have misunderstood what the bible says!
I am just trying to be faithful to the Word of God. Paul writing to Christians at Rome said in
Romans 8 (RSV):
8. and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
If you belong to Christ, you have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you. "Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does NOT belong to Him." So if you don't belong to Christ, you don't have His Spirit dwelling in you. Simple enough. What spirit do you think dwells in you? Christ's?
Peace