Jesus prophet or God
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I only cut and paste that one article by Fred that got you most upset with me if you were upset. I am not so sure of anything. There is a danger for me to be communicating here too. I could be led astray if I am not prayed up and staying in the Scriptures. But please don't confuse my meekness for weakness. I really do respect you all. And I have learned a lot from you and that God has placed a call on the Arab nation which I believe is at the root of Islam or at least through whom the word came. I am broken about all of this. I shouldn't say anything that disrespects your believe. I am sorry to tears. I just can't get my mind of Christ. I also believe there was a call on Israel from whom the seed of Jesus comes, but even they reject Jesus as their King. My words aren't fancy and technical but I believe they are with power in the Holy Spirit as long as my conscious is clear and I trusting and obeying all that I know that God wants me to do.
Sincerely,
AJ
Sincerely,
AJ
Greetings Eesa.
This is probably review for you, but I need to ask. What is your perspective regarding the thought that there is no proof the Bible does NOT represent accurately the three years of Jesus'(pbuh) life. We do not have scripture from God's mouth or Jesus' pen.
Please give it to me one issue at a time if you can. I tend to get lost in the long, multiparagraph replies I sometimes get.
Most here are greater sources of knowledge than I am, and I have difficulty following it seems.
Thank you for your patience and peace.
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I don't know, and I don't see any account for Jesus as a teenager either. Where was He before He fullifilled the purpose He came for. Do you know. No Christians know. I can only tell you that my spirit bears witness with Jesus that He has my heart safely in His hand and no one can tear me away.
What Did Jesus Really Say ? - Muslim perspective
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.html
"Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord"
Deuteronomy 6:4
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus (pbuh) when he said
"...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord."
Mark 12:29
Muhammad (pbuh) came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again:
"And your God is One God: there is no god but He"
The noble Qur'an, al-Bakarah(2):163
were we to study the religion known today as "Christ"ianity, we would find that it is the interpretation of St. Paul of what he personally believed to be the religion of Jesus(pbuh). Christianity as it stands today has been reduced to an interpretation of the words of Jesus (pbuh) within the context of what Paul taught rather than the other way around which is the way it should be. We would expect Christianity to be the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and that the words of Paul and everyone else would be accepted or rejected according to their conformity to these "Jesuit" teachings. However, we will notice in what follows that Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime mentioned an original sin, or an atonement. He never asked anyone to worship him, neither did he ever claim to be part of a Trinity. His words and actions are those of a loyal messenger of God who faithfully and faultlessly followed the commands of his Lord and only told his followers to do the same and to worship God alone (John 4:21, John 4:23, Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8 ...etc.).
Just one of the countless examples of this placement of the words of Paul above the words of Jesus can be seen in the following analysis: Jesus (pbuh) is claimed to have been prepared for his sacrifice on the cross from the beginning of time and was a willing victim (otherwise we would have to claim that God is a sadistic and torturous God who forced Jesus into such a savage end). However, whenever Jesus (pbuh) was asked about the path to "eternal life" he consistently told his followers to only "keep the commandments" and nothing more (Matthew 19:16-21, John 14:15, John 15:10). Not once did he himself ever mention an original sin or a redemption. Even when pressed for the path to "PERFECTION" he only told his followers to sell their belongings. He departed this earth leaving his
followers with the very dire threat: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilledJesus, Fulfillment of Law of Moses. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18-19.
Obviously, heaven and earth have not yet passed. The fact that you are reading this book bears witness to this very simple fact. So Jesus (pbuh) is telling us that so long as creation exists, the commandments will be required from his followers. Anyone who will dare to say otherwise, until the end of time, will be called "the least in the kingdom of heaven." Jesus (pbuh) had foreseen mankind's attempt to distort and annul his commandments, the commandments of Moses (pbuh), which he had taught his followers to keep and himself had kept faithfully till the crucifixion, and was warning his followers in no uncertain terms to be wary of all those who would attempt to do so
Not long after, Jesus departs. Now Saul of Tarsus (St. Paul), a man who never met Jesus (pbuh), a man who by his own admission persecuted the followers of Jesus (pbuh) by every means within his power and presided over their execution (see below), comes along. Suddenly one day St. Paul receives a vision from Jesus (pbuh), and his whole life is turned around. He now takes it upon himself through the authority of his visions to spread the word of Jesus to the whole world and to explain what Jesus really meant. Paul claims that the law of God through Moses (pbuh) is worthless, decaying and ready to vanish away and faith in the crucifixion is the only requirement for a Christian to enter heaven (Romans 3:28, Hebrews 8:13...etc.). Who do Christians listen to, Jesus or Paul? They listen to Paul. They take the words of Paul literally and then "interpret" the words of Jesus (pbuh) within the context of the words of Paul. No one takes the words of Jesus (pbuh) literally and explains the words of Paul within the context
of Jesus' words.
According to this system of explaining the words of Jesus within the context of Paul's teachings, Jesus never actually means what he says but is constantly speaking in riddles (parables) which are not to be taken literally. Even when people attempt to cite the words of Jesus as confirming the teachings of Paul with regard to the original sin, the atonement, ...etc. they never bring clear and decisive words where Jesus actually confirms these things. Instead, they say such things as "When Jesus spoke of the exodus he was really speaking of the atonement" or so forth. Are we to believe that Paul is the only one who can say what is on his mind clearly and decisively while Jesus (pbuh) is not capable of articulating what he means clearly and decisively but requires interpreters to explain the "true" meaning of what he said, and to explain how, when he spoke of the commandments, he was not talking of "the commandments" but of a spiritual commandment and that they will now tell you what this spiritual commandment is that Jesus never managed to talk clearly about?.
It is interesting to note that Jesus was not talking in riddles when he commanded his followers to keep the commandments but was talking of the actual physical commandments of Moses. This can be clearly seen by reading for instance Luke 18:20 where Jesus spells out in no uncertain terms what he means by "keep the commandments." "And I (Jesus) have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you part of that which was forbidden upon you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord so seek refuge in Allah and obey me" The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):50 In the past, I have searched for a logical answer to this puzzle by posing the following questions to respected Christian clergy:
preachings of Paul.
Getting back to the matter at hand, the reader will notice in Mr. J's response a surprising absence of certain very fundamental verses usually quoted by any Christian man or woman off the street in defense of the "Trinity" and other issues. The reader may further surmise that Mr. J might not be well versed enough in the Bible to have referred to these verses. This is far from the case. His occupation requires that he know those verses. The fact of the matter is that I have had an ongoing correspondence with Mr. J for a number of months now which he has now asked be publicized. In this correspondence, many of these fundamental verses were dealt with in detail and refuted for various reasons. This is why he did not quote them here. However, in order that all may benefit from this information we will quote these same verses that he has elected not to. We will also study the other verses he has presented.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.html
"Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord"
Deuteronomy 6:4
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus (pbuh) when he said
"...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord."
Mark 12:29
Muhammad (pbuh) came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again:
"And your God is One God: there is no god but He"
The noble Qur'an, al-Bakarah(2):163
were we to study the religion known today as "Christ"ianity, we would find that it is the interpretation of St. Paul of what he personally believed to be the religion of Jesus(pbuh). Christianity as it stands today has been reduced to an interpretation of the words of Jesus (pbuh) within the context of what Paul taught rather than the other way around which is the way it should be. We would expect Christianity to be the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and that the words of Paul and everyone else would be accepted or rejected according to their conformity to these "Jesuit" teachings. However, we will notice in what follows that Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime mentioned an original sin, or an atonement. He never asked anyone to worship him, neither did he ever claim to be part of a Trinity. His words and actions are those of a loyal messenger of God who faithfully and faultlessly followed the commands of his Lord and only told his followers to do the same and to worship God alone (John 4:21, John 4:23, Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8 ...etc.).
Just one of the countless examples of this placement of the words of Paul above the words of Jesus can be seen in the following analysis: Jesus (pbuh) is claimed to have been prepared for his sacrifice on the cross from the beginning of time and was a willing victim (otherwise we would have to claim that God is a sadistic and torturous God who forced Jesus into such a savage end). However, whenever Jesus (pbuh) was asked about the path to "eternal life" he consistently told his followers to only "keep the commandments" and nothing more (Matthew 19:16-21, John 14:15, John 15:10). Not once did he himself ever mention an original sin or a redemption. Even when pressed for the path to "PERFECTION" he only told his followers to sell their belongings. He departed this earth leaving his
followers with the very dire threat: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilledJesus, Fulfillment of Law of Moses. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18-19.
Obviously, heaven and earth have not yet passed. The fact that you are reading this book bears witness to this very simple fact. So Jesus (pbuh) is telling us that so long as creation exists, the commandments will be required from his followers. Anyone who will dare to say otherwise, until the end of time, will be called "the least in the kingdom of heaven." Jesus (pbuh) had foreseen mankind's attempt to distort and annul his commandments, the commandments of Moses (pbuh), which he had taught his followers to keep and himself had kept faithfully till the crucifixion, and was warning his followers in no uncertain terms to be wary of all those who would attempt to do so
Not long after, Jesus departs. Now Saul of Tarsus (St. Paul), a man who never met Jesus (pbuh), a man who by his own admission persecuted the followers of Jesus (pbuh) by every means within his power and presided over their execution (see below), comes along. Suddenly one day St. Paul receives a vision from Jesus (pbuh), and his whole life is turned around. He now takes it upon himself through the authority of his visions to spread the word of Jesus to the whole world and to explain what Jesus really meant. Paul claims that the law of God through Moses (pbuh) is worthless, decaying and ready to vanish away and faith in the crucifixion is the only requirement for a Christian to enter heaven (Romans 3:28, Hebrews 8:13...etc.). Who do Christians listen to, Jesus or Paul? They listen to Paul. They take the words of Paul literally and then "interpret" the words of Jesus (pbuh) within the context of the words of Paul. No one takes the words of Jesus (pbuh) literally and explains the words of Paul within the context
of Jesus' words.
According to this system of explaining the words of Jesus within the context of Paul's teachings, Jesus never actually means what he says but is constantly speaking in riddles (parables) which are not to be taken literally. Even when people attempt to cite the words of Jesus as confirming the teachings of Paul with regard to the original sin, the atonement, ...etc. they never bring clear and decisive words where Jesus actually confirms these things. Instead, they say such things as "When Jesus spoke of the exodus he was really speaking of the atonement" or so forth. Are we to believe that Paul is the only one who can say what is on his mind clearly and decisively while Jesus (pbuh) is not capable of articulating what he means clearly and decisively but requires interpreters to explain the "true" meaning of what he said, and to explain how, when he spoke of the commandments, he was not talking of "the commandments" but of a spiritual commandment and that they will now tell you what this spiritual commandment is that Jesus never managed to talk clearly about?.
It is interesting to note that Jesus was not talking in riddles when he commanded his followers to keep the commandments but was talking of the actual physical commandments of Moses. This can be clearly seen by reading for instance Luke 18:20 where Jesus spells out in no uncertain terms what he means by "keep the commandments." "And I (Jesus) have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you part of that which was forbidden upon you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord so seek refuge in Allah and obey me" The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):50 In the past, I have searched for a logical answer to this puzzle by posing the following questions to respected Christian clergy:
- According to you, Jesus is supposed to have been prepared for the "atonement" from the beginning of time. He should know that it is coming.
- Whenever he was asked about the path to "eternal life" (i.e. Matthew 19:16-22 ..etc.) he consistently told his followers to only "keep the commandments" just as he had "kept my father's commandments" ..etc.
- Even when he was pressed for more, he only told his followers that in order to be PERFECT they needed only to sell their belongings.
- Not once did he mention an "atonement" or and "original sin."
- The commandments he spoke about were the commandments of Moses and not some "spiritual" commandments. This can be seen in the text itself where Jesus (pbuh) explicitly spells out some of the commandments of Moses one by one.
- St. Paul, a disciple of a disciple, is the one who is followed by Christianity and not Jesus. Jesus' teachings are explained within the context of Paul's teachings and not vice versa.
preachings of Paul.
Getting back to the matter at hand, the reader will notice in Mr. J's response a surprising absence of certain very fundamental verses usually quoted by any Christian man or woman off the street in defense of the "Trinity" and other issues. The reader may further surmise that Mr. J might not be well versed enough in the Bible to have referred to these verses. This is far from the case. His occupation requires that he know those verses. The fact of the matter is that I have had an ongoing correspondence with Mr. J for a number of months now which he has now asked be publicized. In this correspondence, many of these fundamental verses were dealt with in detail and refuted for various reasons. This is why he did not quote them here. However, in order that all may benefit from this information we will quote these same verses that he has elected not to. We will also study the other verses he has presented.
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جوري
Soldier Through It!
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Not upset... surprised you'd post something without verfying it least of which as a presentation to Muslims.... Don't you think spreading lies can only be a testament to weakness and inferiority of the one who is prepetuating such rumors?
No one is born a scholar
Why is that?
or a whole other world in a different light-- more clearely...
I don't think you are either of those
All the messangers came from the middle east... G-D makes no distinction between an Arab or a non-Arab save for piety... A great many Arabs were awful as evidenced in some of the verses in the Quran...
[9.97]"The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and Hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger but Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. "
Well... I really can't understand why?
well--- maybe G-D has led you here for a reason... if the one you were trying to accomplish has failed, maybe there is another one? You should search your soul!
besides, No Muslim has given up Moses, Jesus or any of the other messangers of Allah... and we certainly don't go around maligning them or the scriptures to make Islam seem more correct or appealing... ..[Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
It's been a long day. Time for bed as I have another long day tomorrow.
No, Jesus(pbuh) never says in the Bible "worship me". I have read much for and against the concept of the trinity. Good points are made on all sides. As I was closing up for the evening, I found this passage in John 5:39 and 40.
The words of Jesus, according to John: "39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
I'm sure some will say that he never said eternal life in the last part of verse 40, so that's not what he meant. From my view, if the scriptures testified about Him, the meaning is eternal life.
Maybe I'll have some more time Sunday to check back. Good night all and peace.
No, Jesus(pbuh) never says in the Bible "worship me". I have read much for and against the concept of the trinity. Good points are made on all sides. As I was closing up for the evening, I found this passage in John 5:39 and 40.
The words of Jesus, according to John: "39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
I'm sure some will say that he never said eternal life in the last part of verse 40, so that's not what he meant. From my view, if the scriptures testified about Him, the meaning is eternal life.
Maybe I'll have some more time Sunday to check back. Good night all and peace.
Redeemed
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You can't see why am sorry to tears, and you don't see me as meek. Well, maybe you have a point there, but I am sorry for attacking the authority of what you believe. I couldn't see why it was wrong at first, but I feel that God has taught me something even through you (You have been the hardest on me) in that respect. If I should fall into it again that would be because I am learning to walk away from it. As far as my being meek, I would like to be like Jesus who was a lamb to His sheep and a lion to the wolves.
I believe that God the Holy Spirit is our comforter the bearer of truth and direction in our lives. He is the very breath of the Word of God. He walks along side of us, and tells us this is the right way walk in it.
Peter was saying that he knows that you know these things of spiritual truth. In where we are living in a hamburger (tent) that we will one day lay aside to be with the Lord, because that’s what was going to happen to him soon and he wants us to rejoice in the fact that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I believe that God gave Abraham the grace to follow through on the mission of sacrificing his son. I think the 3-day journey was allowing Abraham to deliberated on the death sentence of His son and his son also, in spite of the fact that he latter asked his father where is the lamb (Although not mentioned) knew that he was supposed to be the sacrifice even before they arrived on Mt. Moriah. I really believe that as Abraham was about to sacrifice his son and the son laid dumb in total trust represented the perfect picture of what God did to his son and Abraham saw that in the spirit some 2000 years before the actual event took place with the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
The son (Isaac) carried the wood for the burned offering much like Jesus carried the wood for His cross.
Abraham had the instrument that was going to pierce his son's flesh to shed his blood as a sin offering
I look at it like life isn't fair and a lot of things go wrong, and it even seems like life isn't worth living. In fact, it isn't worth living apart from God. I see that we will all suffer regardless of what we believe or do in life. I simply have made a choice to suffer for Christ, because I believe that He can turn my life of death to the flesh into eternal life of the spirit. He said those that lose their life for my sake and the gospel will save it, but if we try to save it, we will lose it.
Although Moses was great and even a god like savior to the children of Israel and Elijah was the greatest of Old Testament fiery prophets. All attention in heaven and earth was to be focused on Jesus. Peter seemed to have missed that, and if I were God, I would have found it insulting to put God on equal footing to that of His mere servants. That was when Jesus was trasnfigured before Peter standing there withMoses and Elijah. Peter wanted to build and alter for all three, but I voice from heaven spoke and Moses and Elijah disappeared with only Jesus there. The voice said "This is my beloved Son hear ye Him"
We can even look at the hidden lessons in the story of Joseph. Yes, Joseph was his father's only begotten son (term of endearment) even though he had other children. Just like Jesus was and is His father's only begotten Son. Joseph's brothers hated him because he had God's favor, and that is like the chosen people of God rejecting Christ because He was the anointed one.
Jesus' life matches that of Joseph in more ways than I mentioned above. For instance, as Mike states, "Joseph was greatly loved by his father, but hated by his brothers.
His father sent Joseph to his brothers (who were lost), on a mission of mercy.
When Joseph’s brothers saw him coming, they plotted his death.
Joseph’s brothers sold him into the hands of Gentiles for pieces of silver.
Joseph was falsely accused and sent to a dungeon, where he was numbered with the transgressors, and placed between two criminals.
Joseph then rose out of the dungeon and was exalted to the right hand of Pharaoh, becoming savior and provider to those who needed bread, and was ‘lord of all.’" This is awesome stuff here. It is absolutely note worthy and remarkable. Good night
Peace
AJ
I believe that God the Holy Spirit is our comforter the bearer of truth and direction in our lives. He is the very breath of the Word of God. He walks along side of us, and tells us this is the right way walk in it.
Peter was saying that he knows that you know these things of spiritual truth. In where we are living in a hamburger (tent) that we will one day lay aside to be with the Lord, because that’s what was going to happen to him soon and he wants us to rejoice in the fact that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I believe that God gave Abraham the grace to follow through on the mission of sacrificing his son. I think the 3-day journey was allowing Abraham to deliberated on the death sentence of His son and his son also, in spite of the fact that he latter asked his father where is the lamb (Although not mentioned) knew that he was supposed to be the sacrifice even before they arrived on Mt. Moriah. I really believe that as Abraham was about to sacrifice his son and the son laid dumb in total trust represented the perfect picture of what God did to his son and Abraham saw that in the spirit some 2000 years before the actual event took place with the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
The son (Isaac) carried the wood for the burned offering much like Jesus carried the wood for His cross.
Abraham had the instrument that was going to pierce his son's flesh to shed his blood as a sin offering
I look at it like life isn't fair and a lot of things go wrong, and it even seems like life isn't worth living. In fact, it isn't worth living apart from God. I see that we will all suffer regardless of what we believe or do in life. I simply have made a choice to suffer for Christ, because I believe that He can turn my life of death to the flesh into eternal life of the spirit. He said those that lose their life for my sake and the gospel will save it, but if we try to save it, we will lose it.
Although Moses was great and even a god like savior to the children of Israel and Elijah was the greatest of Old Testament fiery prophets. All attention in heaven and earth was to be focused on Jesus. Peter seemed to have missed that, and if I were God, I would have found it insulting to put God on equal footing to that of His mere servants. That was when Jesus was trasnfigured before Peter standing there withMoses and Elijah. Peter wanted to build and alter for all three, but I voice from heaven spoke and Moses and Elijah disappeared with only Jesus there. The voice said "This is my beloved Son hear ye Him"
We can even look at the hidden lessons in the story of Joseph. Yes, Joseph was his father's only begotten son (term of endearment) even though he had other children. Just like Jesus was and is His father's only begotten Son. Joseph's brothers hated him because he had God's favor, and that is like the chosen people of God rejecting Christ because He was the anointed one.
Jesus' life matches that of Joseph in more ways than I mentioned above. For instance, as Mike states, "Joseph was greatly loved by his father, but hated by his brothers.
His father sent Joseph to his brothers (who were lost), on a mission of mercy.
When Joseph’s brothers saw him coming, they plotted his death.
Joseph’s brothers sold him into the hands of Gentiles for pieces of silver.
Joseph was falsely accused and sent to a dungeon, where he was numbered with the transgressors, and placed between two criminals.
Joseph then rose out of the dungeon and was exalted to the right hand of Pharaoh, becoming savior and provider to those who needed bread, and was ‘lord of all.’" This is awesome stuff here. It is absolutely note worthy and remarkable. Good night
Peace
AJ
Redeemed
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Some things we can infer from the Bible. Everything doesn't always have to be spelled out. The Bible says that he that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son as not life. From that, we don't need to infer nothing. It is explicit. People may choose that not to mean eternal life. I don't want to take the chance to find out. Not having life sounds pretty ugly to me.
since you never stick to the point, this really is the last post addressed to you.
Henceforth only posts I make are going to be refutations to any rubbish I notice here No more, no less![until I'm deleted (only need 1 more post that is offensive to a mod)].
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Greetings and peace be with you alapiana1;
These are my beliefs, and I use the word beliefs because I cannot prove it to anyone else who does not want to believe. We may have passionate beliefs about our own faith, but we must learn to accept that others will also be passionate about their opposing beliefs.
In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God,
Eric
Jesus is the Only Son of God who was crucified for my sins, and he rose again on the third day. Jesus has been given all authority and power over heaven and Earth.
These are my beliefs, and I use the word beliefs because I cannot prove it to anyone else who does not want to believe. We may have passionate beliefs about our own faith, but we must learn to accept that others will also be passionate about their opposing beliefs.
In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God,
Eric
Howdy Don, Hope you aite.
Let me 'rephrase' your questions, so I can see if I understood your questions right, correct me if I have now.
1. What's your view on the position of some who say that there is no proof that the Bible does not represent accuratly the three years of Jesus, peace be upon him's, life?
Am confused if you then are just telling me, is it because 'We do not have scripture from God's mouth or Jesus' pen.'?
Am alittle baffled there. Sorry please be patient with me.
Eesa.
I'm fine, thank you. Just got back from day with my son.
You're patient with me so much, the least I can do is clarify to return the favor of being patient.
What I mean is, there's no version of scripture that says Jesus lived three years claiming only to be a prophet. There's no existing old scriptures that when translated change any basic messages in the Bible. What proof is there that it's been changed? The list of 101 contradictions I've seen just doesn't wash with me. There's 101 refutations also.
Even the idea that Paul went about changing the gospel to fit his needs. I'm sure the other 11 would have reigned him in once they saw he was not representing the three years they all spent with Jesus.
Your thoughts?
Thanks once again.
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
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Just poking my nose in and adding my 2 cents. All I know of Paul in the NT is from the letters he wrote to the various church heads. so I know that by the time of Paul, Christianity had taken on the role of an organized religion separate from Judaism. It does look like Paul was very instrumental in bringing about this change.
I could be wrong, but I can not find any reply that any Bishop, Apostle or whatever had ever written back to Paul. Can you point to one sentence where a single Apostle acknowledged agreeing with Paul?
Greetings Woodrow. Thank you for the reply.
By the same token, can anyone produce any replies from that time where any of the other apostles refuted his writings? Paul wasn't the only apostle travelling about.
If Paul was communicating correctly, why would there necessarily be letters of agreement? If he was twisting what the other apostles all thought to be the truth, there should have been activity to reign him in from the people that were also familiar with Jesus'(pbuh) message.
Peace.
Woodrow
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A challange, Seperate the letters of Paul from the NT, compare those letters with what the Apostles wrote, is the Christianity of today more like the letters of Paul or like the writings of the apostles.
Greetings and peace be with you Woodrow;
Also I believe that Pauls writings help me to understand in a broader sense many of the things Jesus taught. These are my beliefs.
In the spirit of searching for God
Eric
It depends what influence God has on Paul’s letters and I do not believe that Paul's letters are in conflict with the rest of the Bible
Also I believe that Pauls writings help me to understand in a broader sense many of the things Jesus taught. These are my beliefs.
In the spirit of searching for God
Eric
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
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Peace Eric,
I have problems with equating Paul with Christianity. to me it appears that Paul formed a whole new denomination separate from the Christianity practiced by the Apostles.
All that I see about Paul in the NT are the words written by Paul Himself. So what we know about Paul and what authority he had is based on the words of Paul alone.
Seems odd that the NT felt it necessary to have 4 witnesses to explain what they believe about Isa(as), yet accept Paul on the basis of his own word.
Outside of Paul himself, there is nobody that can verify he even had any authority to speak for the Christians of the era, Much less become one of the major forces in establishing Christianity to become what it has become.
If you were to take the letters of Paul as stand alone doctrine of today's Christian, There would be no Change in the beliefs of todays Christians. However, if you would take the words of the Apostles and try to have them stand alone, Christianity would be much different today, it would be a sect of Judaism and not even be called Christianity. You would be eating Kosher Food and Circumcision would be required. That is just for starts.
So although Paul does not discredit the teachings of the apostles, his teachings contain much that was not taught by the apostles and the early Christians. Yet, the only basis to accept his authority is his own words. The NT does not even provide any witnesses to even verify he was even a Christian. Sort of like he had found a copy of the writings of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke and founded a church based upon his interpretation.
I have problems with equating Paul with Christianity. to me it appears that Paul formed a whole new denomination separate from the Christianity practiced by the Apostles.
All that I see about Paul in the NT are the words written by Paul Himself. So what we know about Paul and what authority he had is based on the words of Paul alone.
Seems odd that the NT felt it necessary to have 4 witnesses to explain what they believe about Isa(as), yet accept Paul on the basis of his own word.
Outside of Paul himself, there is nobody that can verify he even had any authority to speak for the Christians of the era, Much less become one of the major forces in establishing Christianity to become what it has become.
If you were to take the letters of Paul as stand alone doctrine of today's Christian, There would be no Change in the beliefs of todays Christians. However, if you would take the words of the Apostles and try to have them stand alone, Christianity would be much different today, it would be a sect of Judaism and not even be called Christianity. You would be eating Kosher Food and Circumcision would be required. That is just for starts.
So although Paul does not discredit the teachings of the apostles, his teachings contain much that was not taught by the apostles and the early Christians. Yet, the only basis to accept his authority is his own words. The NT does not even provide any witnesses to even verify he was even a Christian. Sort of like he had found a copy of the writings of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke and founded a church based upon his interpretation.
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