Jihad's talked by Jesus himself in the Bible (Luc 19.27)

[Scimitar]

You know, this place is miles better than other Muslim forums that claim to be tolerant towards non Muslim. I don't even think the question of being tolerant even props up. The vibe here is one that is just naturally endearing....

...In fact, I'd go as far and say I haven't come across anything like it on the net. Good work guys.

Scimi

 

[Abz2000]

here brother eric:

And it was given unto him (the beast that implants identification with purchasing codes in people) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:11

178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder:
the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman.
But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude,
this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
179. In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding;
that ye may restrain yourselves.

Quran 2:178-179

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you brother Abz2000, and thanks for sharing,

here you go brother eric
please read through the 4 pages i uploaded carefully to see if there could be ANY truth to it:

When the prophet pbuh, had his ministry on Earth, he achieved many things, because Allah willed these things to happen. We look on the ministry of Jesus in the same way. It does not matter what Jews or Romans or Greeks, robbers, or priests do, if God wills something to happen, then it is. All things are possible to God, the Roman Emperor is nobody.

I am not sure how much more I should contribute to this thread, because I do not want to see it become Christianity against Islam.

There is only the One God and the same God hears all our prayers, despite all our perceived differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God, blessings,

Eric

 

[Predator]

There is only the One God and the same God hears all our prayers, despite all our perceived differences.

Well If you're a trinitarian then of course you believe in not 1 but 3 gods.

 

[Abz2000]

oh come on bro =)
he's arguing his point in a nice way, let's be as constructive rather than go in for the kill =)

 

[Scimitar]

Finding that which is common between us is far more favourable and worthy of effort, than that which divides us.

Scimi

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you brother Scimitar;

Finding that which is common between us is far more favourable and worthy of effort, than that which divides us.

Scimi

Blessings and peace.

Eric

 

[Scimitar]

And unto you, be peace and blessings too.

Scimi

 

[Al-manar]

Peace be upon you all...

First : Any muslim here assured that such parable in luke has to be the true words included in the gospel revealed to Jesus peace be upon him ? Is there any Quranic hint to corporate the passage in luke? if not ,how would you build a concept,belief on something uncertain?


second: You want to argue that Jesus was a Jihadist or rather Jihad as a concept should by no mean be shameful or offensive ?

If the second ,just why don't you visit the old testament and find out the examples of the great prophets military Jihads eg; Moses peace be upon him etc.... Mohamed peace be upon him was not the first prophet to practice Jihad for the sake of God


Third : If you want to find out ,as a muslim whether Jesus practiced Jihad or not ,visit his story in the Quran to find out that his mission was short ,as it was directed to the Jews whom partly refused it and been enemies for him trying to kill him ,but God willed not so ,and his mission was terminated in peace ......
if Allah willed he could have engaged in jihad with those group of Jews who accepted him against the eneimies of the Jews eg;the Romans .....


Fourth: what is amazing ,is that ,the point whether Jesus was a Jihadist(according to the predictive picture of the king messiah of the old testament ) or not, is the place where Judaism and christianity been seperated for good ..
In one hand ,The Jews waited a great military conquering king who would lead them out of political bondage, who would certainly get All Israelites back to their homeland ,and during his reign There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease etc....
Having(jesus) come and gone without any of those been materialized ,but exactly the contrary (the Jews been defeated and expelled) , christians invented the theory of the suffering messiah ,and the notion of his contemporary coming in their generation to fulfill the prophecies .... a notion that days proved how it is false ......


To conclude :

1- the question not whether Jesus taught Jihad or not, but do you have a problem as one belonging to the Abrahamic religions accepting the Jihad of the prophets as recorded in bible and Quran?

2- If you intend to argue whether Jesus was a Jihadist or not ,in the context of critisizing christianity ,astonishingly , you have to argue the opposit of what you may think If Jesus wasn't a conquering Jihadist ,how on earth he was the Jewish promised king messiah ?

That is the most embarrasing problem ,which early christians tried to resolve ,inventing the notion that in their generation there would be a second coming to fulfill all that ,days passed and nothing happened as they expected ,those were just imaginations .

and that us humans who never stop dreaming of a better tomorrow and a savior who would turn that world of suffering into paradise ,and we turn those dreams into beliefs and a scripture revealed by God !!!....

peace for you all brothers,sisters ,especially the kind man Eric ..

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar; I have often looked in on your comparative study thread, but have chosen not to reply. My intentions here have always been to seek a greater interfaith understanding and friendship.

2- If you intend to argue whether Jesus was a Jihadist or not

As I understand, there are different types of Jihad, is it possible to describe the types of Jihad that you might associate Jesus with

Blessings

Eric

 

[Abz2000]

bro Eric, if you take into account the fact that "jihad" means strive, or struggle,
i'm sure you'd agree that Jesus (pbuh) was a devout jihadi.

this word has been used in a negative manner by the mass media in order to excite hysteria and fear of Islamic revolt
the word struggle is also used in the English language in a war or violent revolution context,
the Irish call their effort to remove British occupation a "struggle", arabic = Jihad.
when a western leader uses the word "struggle" in his speech, an Arabic translator would naturally translate it as Jihad.
and i am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you are aware who these verses describe:

Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Isaiah 63:1-10

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth.
Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Quran 4:171

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,
and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19

 

[Al-manar]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar;

Greetings and peace be with you dear Eric ..

I have often looked in on your comparative study thread, but have chosen not to reply. My intentions here have always been to seek a greater interfaith understanding and friendship.

Any reader to your posts in the forum,would soon realize your noble goal of mutual understanding and respect ...
and I think my input in my thread ,though sometimes critical yet as a whole is intended to show muslims and christians alike ,of where EXACTLY our faiths would meet and where EXACTLY would they disagree .....
Believe me when I tell you ,I never intended the thread to debate christians ,but to define christianity as it truly is for muslims ,and to clear the muslim misconceptions regarding the Bible ..... many muslims view some biblical issues as problematic with Islam while they aren't and don't realize the proper problems therin ...
I appericiate your giving time reading the thread, and giving time to the forum in general to spread a greater interfaith understanding and friendship .
but that shouldn't be an excuse not to participate more in discussions,fearing a dispute ,we need to feel your welcomed presence even more ......

As I understand, there are different types of Jihad, is it possible to describe the types of Jihad that you might associate Jesus with ;Blessings

As we know, Jihad in Arabic means making efforts for a noble goal it is a struggle for any cause with either violent or non-violent tools :

1- jihad as warfare : punishing certain people in history because they were guilty of deliberately denying the truth and the expansion and defense of the believers' state.

1- Jihad as Spiritual struggle : the strugle against lust,immoral desires and the struggle to establish just moral-social order .

prophets (and other inferior reformers) all without exception practiced the second kind of Jihad ....
the best examples of prophets who practiced both kinds of Jihad would be Moses and Mohamed peace be upon them....
In both the bible and Quran Moses is recorded practicing a spiritual Jihad struggling with the Jews(non violently) ,preaching the noble message of God ,then he practised jihad as warfare ,punishing the pagans and building a state for the believers that is recorded in the Quran beiefly in Sura [5:19 :26] and in Bible Deuteronomy 7:1-5
When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations – the Hittites, Girgashies, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you – and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. (Deuteronomy 7:1-5)

and

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labour and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, and children, the livestock and everything else in the city you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. (Deuteronomy, 20:10-15)


Prophet Jesus, unlike Moses and Mohamed peace be upon them all, wasn't bestowed with political authority by the Almighty ,neither building,expanding a state for the believers (the believers' state was already there though occupied)but was supposed to be a religious reformer and a preacher of wisdom .
The fact that Jesus was assigneed for only spiritual Jihad would by no means, degrade him neither make him superior to other prophets, why?

Holy Quran 2:136 Say: "We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and that which was given to Moses, Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We do not discriminate any of them, and to Allah we have surrendered ourselves (in Islam)."


Blessings

Al-manar

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;

bro Eric, if you take into account the fact that "jihad" means strive, or struggle,
i'm sure you'd agree that Jesus (pbuh) was a devout jihadi.

Agreed

this word has been used in a negative manner by the mass media in order to excite hysteria and fear of Islamic revolt

Also agreed

the word struggle is also used in the English language in a war or violent revolution context,
the Irish call their effort to remove British occupation a "struggle", arabic = Jihad.
when a western leader uses the word "struggle" in his speech, an Arabic translator would naturally translate it as Jihad

Agreed, and the same goes for the French Underground during the Second World war, they were called resistance fighters and freedom fighters.

Blessings

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar; thank you for your kind reply.

the best examples of prophets who practiced both kinds of Jihad would be Moses and Mohamed peace be upon them....

I can see the similarities between them

Moses and Mohamed peace be upon them all, wasn't bestowed with political authority by the Almighty ,neither building,expanding a state for the believers (the believers' state was already there though occupied)but was supposed to be a religious reformer and a preacher of wisdom .

Agreed

The fact that Jesus was assigneed for only spiritual Jihad would by no means, degrade him

Agreed, In many ways this highlights the prophet (pbuh) saying that it is greater to be merciful and forgive, than it is to seek compensation or retribution through the justice system

Every blessing

Eric

 

[Al-manar]

Greetings and peace be with you Eric H

I tried to post and continue the discussion with you but something distracted me ...now let's continue our friendly discussion

Agreed, In many ways this highlights the prophet (pbuh) saying that it is greater to be merciful and forgive, than it is to seek compensation or retribution through the justice system

1- From a Quranic point of view ,Jesus hadn't sought compensation or retribution through the justice system ,nor forgave the Jews.. why? cause no one ever done violence or hurt him (according to the Quran),and if we suppose anyone had done violence to him,there wouldn't have been any time for God to decide for him what to do in return, as his short mission was terminated in peace (according to the Quran)..

2- It is God who would decide for the prophet whether to include militant jihad with spiritual one or not, that depends on the role is written for that prophet, whether has political authority or not ...

let's for example talk about prophet John the Baptist who (according to the gospel) was executed by beheading...
let's ask :
Did he practice jihad as a warfare ? not at all ... could we suggest him as superior to Moses who practiced jihad as a warfare ? I don't think any muslim or christian would argue so ....
The same case could be applied fairly with Jesus who (according to the bible) had a similar fate ,that was executed by crucifiction .... I don't think he would be superior to Moses or Mohamed peace be upon them , due to the nature and the circumstances of his short mission...

Every blessing
Almanar

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar;

From a Quranic point of view ,Jesus hadn't sought compensation or retribution through the justice system ,nor forgave the Jews.. why? cause no one ever done violence or hurt him (according to the Quran)

Fair enough comment according to the Quran, but Jesus does talk about forgiveness and mercy in the Bible.

It is God who would decide for the prophet whether to include militant jihad with spiritual one or not, that depends on the role is written for that prophet, whether has political authority or not ...

Agreed again, and as the thread asks the question about Jesus and Jihad, I agree with you that Jesus was given a ministry of spiritual jihad.

The same case could be applied fairly with Jesus who (according to the bible) had a similar fate ,that was executed by crucifiction .... I don't think he would be superior to Moses or Mohamed peace be upon them , due to the nature and the circumstances of his short mission...

If I could add Adam to your list, and then possibly offer an explanation as to how God introduced the ‘law’ to mankind.

Adam was just given one law (command) ‘do not eat from the tree of knowledge.’ Between Adam and Moses, there were no laws, so when Kane killed his brother Abel, there was not a law of do not kill, so he did not break any law, by killing his brother.

God saw the evil man was doing, so he gave Moses the ‘law’ and now there were also punishments for breaking the law. Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but he came with a new commandment, that you love one another as Jesus has loved, you love your neighbour as you love yourself. Loving your neighbour was above the law because if you truly loved your neighbour, you would not kill, lie cheat etc, although all these old laws still remained.

Mohamed came along to reintroduce the rigidity of the law of Moses again, as mankind continued to sin against God and their neighbour.

Just some thoughts

Every blessing
Almanar

Every blessing to you and your family also,

Eric

 

[Abz2000]

Adam was just given one law (command) ‘do not eat from the tree of knowledge.’
Between Adam and Moses, there were no laws,
so when Kane killed his brother Abel, there was not a law of do not kill, so he did not break any law, by killing his brother.

i respectfully disagree brother Eric,
Man was given an intellect to choose the best and use his conscience from the beginning, it was the law of right and wrong, written in man's inherent nature

i quote from the bible just to refresh you on what remains of the previous scripture, the authenticity of it is not something i endorse personally as God alone knows the truth:

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? ........
.......
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Genesis 3:7-11 and 22...

cain knew very well that he was being selfish and evil, and that his brother was being accepted due to his righteousness.
and Noah (pbuh) came and warned his people, they were not drowned for eating from the tree.
Abraham (pbuh) came and warned the babylonians and nimrod was not punished for eating from the tree,
the sodomites in Lut (pbuh) were destroyed for their sodomy and corruption, not for the tree.
then we have Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph (peace be upon them all) who all came with warnings or guidance or both - all before Moses (pbuh) was given the law.
it has been mentioned that the children of Israel were the first Ummah upon whom Jihad was prescribed as a duty, and they were given the written law and the responsibility to uphold it by whatever means necessary within the limits of Allah.
maybe Allah did not prescribe physical Jihad on the previous generations because they were not yet prepared for the written law, and how can you prescribe physical Jihad without a written constitution as a guide?

and yes, Jesus pbuh is clearly known to be coming to follow the final guidance revealed to the final messenger pbuh when he returns, just as he pbuh did with Prophet Moses' law.
and that he will be ready to help defend the ummah with the sword when necessary.

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:34

showing that sometimes peace has to be defended with the sword.

 

[Al-manar]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar;

If I could add Adam to your list, and then possibly offer an explanation as to how God introduced the ‘law’ to mankind.
Adam was just given one law (command) ‘do not eat from the tree of knowledge.’ Between Adam and Moses, there were no laws, so when Kane killed his brother Abel, there was not a law of do not kill, so he did not break any law, by killing his brother. God saw the evil man was doing, so he gave Moses the ‘law’ and now there were also punishments for breaking the law.

Thank you dear Eric for the input ...

I think we need to bring a Quranic verse related to the previous quote , the words in bold gave me some thoughts , but do you think those verse could be in harmony with your thoughts ?

Holy Quran 5:27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous. 28. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. 29. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."30. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.31. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets- On account of that, We prescribed with the Children of Israel that anyone who kills any person without another soul being involved or causing mischief in the land, acts as if he had killed all mankind. Anyone who spares life acts as if he had granted life to all mankind. Our messengers have brought them explanations; then later on many of the committed excesses on earth.

on one hand , the sons of Adam seem to know that killing is evil thing ,and aware of sins that requires hell fire ,on the other hand for that Evil commited by the son of Adam against his brother (and we can add any other case of murder then) God included the punishment of kiling in the law of Moses .....

I see some harmony between your input and the Quran....


Every blessing to you and your family also,

Almanar

 

[Burninglight]

Jesus is not speaking of Jihad in the Muslim sense. That verse needs to be read in context: Jesus often speaks in parables. It tells how God has all given us information and talents that He entrusted to us. We are accountable for what we do with what he has shown us. Some have done well with the little God has given them; some have done poorly; some have done well with the much God has given; some have not. Bottom line is we are all accountable for every action and very idle word: [SUP]22[/SUP] “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? [SUP]23[/SUP] Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’
[SUP]24[/SUP] “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
[SUP]25[/SUP] “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ [SUP]26[/SUP] “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. [SUP]27[/SUP] But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’” Jesus is saying to take away from those who didn't produce for the Lord. As for those that didn't want Him to reign as soverign KING in their lives, He is saying they will lose all and all life will be taken from them.

 

[Abz2000]

^ who interpreted it for you?