Kenyans burned to death in church

[AntiKarateKid]

The violence over there has really taken a turn for the worse these days...

By the way, not to detract from the topic but, this violence isn't religious right? And yet every time I speak to a atheist, they make it sound like religion is what is behind every bad thing. This conflict doesn't seem to have any though:?

 

[Muezzin]

No religion behind this violence, just politics and nutters.

This event is tragic. Anyone who attacks people in a place of worship, as well as desecrating or destroying the building itself is just... pitiful.

 

[thirdwatch512]

It is really sad to hear this is happening. My condolences to all those who lost a loved one.



I am not sure why Christians are being the target of persecution all of a sudden. Hindu extremists in India, anti christians in kenya.. Really sad!

 

[Cognescenti]

No religion behind this violence, just politics and nutters.

This event is tragic. Anyone who attacks people in a place of worship, as well as desecrating or destroying the building itself is just... pitiful.

Agreed. This was not religiously motivated. This is more about ethnic group and political party affiliation (which often track together in Africa). This also has no greater geopolitical implications nor it is a sign of the world descending into chaos. Bad things happen all the time. You just hear about them more now.

I would congratulate those who might have been tempted to blame this on the US or racism or Colonialism and who have restrained their base influences (so far).

 

[chosen]

i pose a question in regards to this...as an american i see that sometimes we are bashed because people around the world seem to think that our goverment has appointed themselves the "world moral police"..if in this case..and if this kind of violence continues..how would you feel about America on its own..or in co operation with the united nations became involved..it seems to be a no win situation..when we become involved we are criticized and if we stand by and do nothing we are criticized...any input????

 

[wilberhum]

i pose a question in regards to this...as an american i see that sometimes we are bashed because people around the world seem to think that our goverment has appointed themselves the "world moral police"..if in this case..and if this kind of violence continues..how would you feel about America on its own..or in co operation with the united nations became involved..it seems to be a no win situation..when we become involved we are criticized and if we stand by and do nothing we are criticized...any input????

Spot on. We are d-a-m-e-d if we do and d-a-m-e-d if we don't.

Even if it is a UN action we are blamed. :skeleton:

You need to remember if you blame some one else for all your problems, you don't have to accept any responsibility.

You see it all the time on this forum. :?

 

[KelleyD]

our goverment has appointed themselves the "world moral police

America has no interest in actually being the world moral police, just in looking as if we are. I wager, UN or no UN, we will not lift a finger to help Kenya. Why? Because there is no "black gold" or anything else of interest to this administration to warrant getting involved. In fact, they have been the last to even comment on the uprising. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon was much, much faster off the mark-- by a matter of days-- than anyone in the Bush administration in exercising the kind of moral leadership that Kenya's citizens and parties so sorely need to hear.

Yesterday, Condi Rice did finally get around to issuing a statement-- jointly with UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband-- that included a call for a cessation of violence. However, that statement came an agonizing five days after Rice had rushed to congratulate former President Mwai Kibaki on his electoral "victory." One has to question why she would do this when election monitors from the EU and US-based organizations were raising enormous doubts about the integrity of the election.

This administration, as well as Rice's moral authority goes into considerable compromised when they do these kinds of things. (Of course, one must realize that the administration for which she works also bears the burden of having grabbed the election of 2000 and 2004 by some very questionable means.)

On a side note, the only one of a political nature who even seemed to care was presidential candidate Barack Obama-- the son of a Kenyan father and an American mother. He did issue his own call for a peaceful resolution of the controversies that divide Kenyans. And wouldn't you know other Democratic candidates hurried to follow suit.

How very dissapointing.....but not unexpected.:-\

 

[wilberhum]

Agreed. This was not religiously motivated. This is more about ethnic group and political party affiliation (which often track together in Africa). This also has no greater geopolitical implications nor it is a sign of the world descending into chaos. Bad things happen all the time. You just hear about them more now.

I would congratulate those who might have been tempted to blame this on the US or racism or Colonialism and who have restrained their base influences (so far).

But not all truly restrained themselves.

Hey I'm just glad the media didn't blame it on the muslims.

Not bad, some one not blaming everything on the media.

 

[Grace Seeker]

America has no interest in actually being the world moral police, just in looking as if we are. I wager, UN or no UN, we will not lift a finger to help Kenya. Why? Because there is no "black gold" or anything else of interest to this administration to warrant getting involved. In fact, they have been the last to even comment on the uprising. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon was much, much faster off the mark-- by a matter of days-- than anyone in the Bush administration in exercising the kind of moral leadership that Kenya's citizens and parties so sorely need to hear.

Yesterday, Condi Rice did finally get around to issuing a statement-- jointly with UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband-- that included a call for a cessation of violence. However, that statement came an agonizing five days after Rice had rushed to congratulate former President Mwai Kibaki on his electoral "victory." One has to question why she would do this when election monitors from the EU and US-based organizations were raising enormous doubts about the integrity of the election.

This administration, as well as Rice's moral authority goes into considerable compromised when they do these kinds of things. (Of course, one must realize that the administration for which she works also bears the burden of having grabbed the election of 2000 and 2004 by some very questionable means.)

On a side note, the only one of a political nature who even seemed to care was presidential candidate Barack Obama-- the son of a Kenyan father and an American mother. He did issue his own call for a peaceful resolution of the controversies that divide Kenyans. And wouldn't you know other Democratic candidates hurried to follow suit.

How very dissapointing.....but not unexpected.:-\

Before you go beating up on the USA too much, remember it was the USA that went into Kosovo and Bosnia to protect the people there. They were Muslim, not Christian, and there was not one drop of oil at stake. Our "national interest", if there was one, was simply to prevent ethinc genocide. We should have gone into Rwanda, but didn't. But look what happened when we tried to help in Somalia and the black eye we took for that. And while we were slow to speak out on Dafur, we have spoken out on it, but where is the rest of the world's voice.

The US isn't going to be perfect in these things. But show me a country that is. As said above, we are critiized when we go in, and when we don't go in. We are the big target, big enough that there is always someone to accuse us of doing it wrong. And sometimes we have, and we will again. But if the USA wasn't here, many of those that scream about us would have to invent some other country to be their target, because despite all their screaming, they really are interested only in screaming and pointing the finger at others and not so much in finding solutions to problems themselves.

That doesn't speak as much to Kenya, as some of the undercurrents in your posts. As for Kenya, what can we do right now beyond pray for things to calm down. We can help take a closer look at the election if that's needed, but rioting and murder is not the way to make a case that you've been victimized.

 

[KelleyD]

Before you go beating up on the USA too much, remember it was the USA that went into Kosovo and Bosnia to protect the people there. .

I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". I'm not bashing America. But I have been in these places, including the Middle East, three times. I seen it from our side and I've seen it from theirs. I wasn't always Muslim. I used to be Brainwashed.

The US isn't going to be perfect in these things..

Well, you got that one right. But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. Are there worse operating countries out there? Probably, but we need to get off the "Super Power" and "Leader of the Free World" high horse because there are other countries
that operate much better and we could take some lessons from them instead of acting as if "our way" is the only way.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". I'm not bashing America. But I have been in these places, including the Middle East, three times. I seen it from our side and I've seen it from theirs. I wasn't always Muslim. I used to be Brainwashed.


Well, you got that one right. But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. Are there worse operating countries out there? Probably, but we need to get off the "Super Power" and "Leader of the Free World" high horse because there are other countries
that operate much better and we could take some lessons from them instead of acting as if "our way" is the only way.

Oh, I agree we do way too much "our way is the only way" sort of stuff. Look at how we would do anything to get rid of democratically elected communist and socialist run governments around the world when Reagan was president. But on your first point, my understanding was that we actually still do have some troops in Kosovo.

So, do you have any suggestions on what we could actually do in Kenya right now that would make it better, rather than worse?

 

[KelleyD]

So, do you have any suggestions on what we could actually do in Kenya right now that would make it better, rather than worse?

Pray hard for peace.:unhappy:

 

[ricardo_sousa]

So, do you have any suggestions on what we could actually do in Kenya right now that would make it better, rather than worse?

Promote a "new borders" for Africa. Like in the old Yugoslavia in Europe. The borders of Africa countries were made by the European empires and that don´t reflect the actual divisions of the different tribes and ethnic groups. Kenya is an explosive pot of different tribes.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Promote a "new borders" for Africa. Like in the old Yugoslavia in Europe. The borders of Africa countries were made by the European empires and that don´t reflect the actual divisions of the different tribes and ethnic groups. Kenya is an explosive pot of different tribes.

I understand the concept, but I think it is more than a little naive to think that will "fix" things.

 

[Jayda]

I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". I'm not bashing America. But I have been in these places, including the Middle East, three times. I seen it from our side and I've seen it from theirs. I wasn't always Muslim. I used to be Brainwashed.


Well, you got that one right. But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. Are there worse operating countries out there? Probably, but we need to get off the "Super Power" and "Leader of the Free World" high horse because there are other countries
that operate much better and we could take some lessons from them instead of acting as if "our way" is the only way.

hola KelleyD,

out of curiosity do you come from a military family? i ask because my father was in the army as a lt colonel and (despite the fact i had no desire to do so) i was told from a very young age i was forbidden to join the army and only men were supposed to be in the military...

que Dios te bendiga

 

[ricardo_sousa]

I understand the concept, but I think it is more than a little naive to think that will "fix" things.

of course that will not fix the problems, but will be a start. Just like we are seeing today in the old Yugoslavia countries in Europe.

It is impossible to have peace in a country where you have groups of people that don´t respect each other and are ready to kill innocent people. it is best to first "separate" and then, as nations, trying to build Unions, like the European Union.

 

[Cognescenti]

I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". .

Apparently, when you were "deployed" there you failed to acquire an understanding about centuries-old grievances or more recent bad feelings about who, among the locals, sided with the Nazis in WWII (hint: it wasn't the Serbs). You also, apparently, failed to discover there was an ineffectual UN and EU effort (at their own insistnece) before the US finally stepped in. Do tell us though when and what unit you were with and how many officers you fragged.

.

I'm not bashing America. .

No...not at all. In fact, I mistook you for a docent at the Ronald Reagan Library.


.

I used to be Brainwashed. .

Are you sure you have the verb tense correct?


.

But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. .

...."....this way please to the America the Beautiful diorama. On your right please note the dark greatcoat. This is the very garment Mr. Reagan wore during his famous "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech. On your left......"

 

[- Qatada -]

Guys, debate respectfully ayt?




Peace.

 

[KelleyD]

hola KelleyD,

out of curiosity do you come from a military family? i ask because my father was in the army as a lt colonel and (despite the fact i had no desire to do so) i was told from a very young age i was forbidden to join the army and only men were supposed to be in the military...

que Dios te bendiga

Yes. I come from a long line of military families and I was military for many years. Unlike you, I was told from a very early age that my sister and I would be going in. Ironic isn't it, how cultures can be so different.

 

[☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆]

Update...

Kenya food effort gets under way

A convoy of food trucks has left the Kenyan port of Mombasa, in a new effort to tackle a humanitarian crisis triggered by disputed elections.

The trucks, carrying 666 tonnes of food and vegetable oil, are bound for Nairobi and Eldoret, where people displaced by the violence are gathered.

No food has moved in Kenya since unrest broke out after elections last month which the opposition says were rigged.

The opposition rejected a subsequent offer of a national unity government.

The violence, much of it blamed on ethnic tensions, has killed 350 people and shocked a nation previously seen as one of the most stable in Africa.

The first group of 20 food trucks are carrying enough supplies to feed 35,000 people for a month.

The UN says 250,000 people have been made homeless by the violence. Many have been sleeping in the open at public parks, police stations, public parks or churches.

They have few belongings and little or no money.

The convoy also offers hope to neighbouring countries, for which Mombasa is also a key port and distribution hub.

Health fears

British charity Merlin has warned of a looming health crisis in Kenya.

Country director Wubeshet Woldermariam said food and water supplies were "running dangerously low".

"If peace isn't restored within the next few days, disease outbreaks and severe dehydration are very real threats."

Latest indications are that violence is waning and life starting to return to normal.

But across Kenya on Sunday, church services have been held calling for peace.

"Our leaders have failed us. They have brought this catastrophe upon us. So now we are turning to the Almighty to save Kenya," worshipper Jane Riungu told the Reuters news agency as she took her children to church in Nairobi.

On the political front, the US's top Africa diplomat, Jendayi Frazer - who saw President Mwai Kibaki and the opposition leader Raila Odinga on Saturday - is still in Nairobi, where she was expected to hold more talks.

The African Union chairman, President John Kufuor of Ghana, is also expected to visit Nairobi.

Mr Kibaki has said he is willing to form a government of national unity to ease the crisis.

Opposition leader Raila Odinga says he is willing to negotiate, but says Mr Kibaki should step down.

Kenyan politics has been dogged by ethnic tensions since independence in 1963.

Mr Kibaki depends for support on the largest ethnic group, the Kikuyus, while the western Luo and Kalenjin groups - who seek greater autonomy - back Mr Odinga.

KENYA'S ETHNIC GROUPS
Population 34.5m, comprising more than 40 ethnic groups
Kikuyu are the largest tribe, mostly concentrated around Nairobi
Most of Eastern/ North-eastern regions sparsely populated with ethnic Somalis
Main ethnic groups are:
Kikuyu: 22%
Luhya: 14%
Luo: 13%
Kalenjin: 12%
Kamba: 11%
Kisii: 6%
Meru: 6%
Other African: 15%

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7173565.stm