Lal Masjid Massacre

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Woodrow said:
All of that is true. But, my question still is that although the Khateeb is gov't Appointed, does anybody know what his position is? Is he for Allah(swt) or for the Gov't? I am not there so I can not question the actions of the people who attend the Masjid. those are just questions I would like to personally know if I was at the Masjid and had to decide on going with or against the crowd. Although the fact he is appointed by the Gov't would be reason for suspicion, it does not automatically mean he supports the Gov't
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The world doesn't work that way. People see gov't committing a massacre, prisoning the clerics left alive, painting the masjid white and pointing a khateeb they picked to be head of the masjid. You would not even accept bread from the killer of your teachers, fellow students, brothers and sisters, based on many reasons. What kind of a spiritual leader can the provide when they lack the spirit of Islam themselves.
 
islamirama said:
The world doesn't work that way. People see gov't committing a massacre, prisoning the clerics left alive, painting the masjid white and pointing a khateeb they picked to be head of the masjid. You would not even accept bread from the killer of your teachers, fellow students, brothers and sisters, based on many reasons. What kind of a spiritual leader can the provide when they lack the spirit of Islam themselves.
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:sl:

True, but are we not making a judgment call about the Khateeb, without knowing anything about him? Using the logic of being against him because he is Gov't appointed, opens the door for having the people themselves shut down every Masjid. All the Gov't need say about every Imam and Khateeb is that the Gov't approves of them. I think the decision should be based on the person and not on who appoints him. Just, my opinion. I do agree that I do not know what is going on at the Masjid and I can not speak for their actions. Perhaps if I were there I would be in complete agreement. But, I am here and can only go by the little information I see.
 
May Allah swt help the Muslims of Pakistan to establish the deen of Allah swt via a halal method inshAllah
 
Woodrow said:
:sl:

True, but are we not making a judgment call about the Khateeb, without knowing anything about him? Using the logic of being against him because he is Gov't appointed, opens the door for having the people themselves shut down every Masjid. All the Gov't need say about every Imam and Khateeb is that the Gov't approves of them. I think the decision should be based on the person and not on who appoints him. Just, my opinion. I do agree that I do not know what is going on at the Masjid and I can not speak for their actions. Perhaps if I were there I would be in complete agreement. But, I am here and can only go by the little information I see.
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:w:

I know you can go only on what you read in the news, 1/2 of which is fabricated. While I have more sources that are in touch with people over there. The khateeb gov't appointed had his own masjid near by and thru out all this massacre lot of alims spoke against the gov't but this guy remained silent. When he was about to give the khutbah, the locals of the masjid stopped him. they had 3 conditions one of which was that only a kin of one of matyred is allowed to give khutbah. This khateeb didn't even stay for jummah and just left the masjid.

The gov't also had painted the masjid white/pale yellow and change the name to "jamia hafsa masjid" as on of their pathetic ways to erase the massacre they committed on muslims. The residents started painting the masjid back to the red color and thru the gov'ts name board out, replacing with with their "gazi Lal Masid". The whole nation is against the gov't right now for this atrocity it committed against the innocents and the house of Allah.
 
islamirama said:
:w:

I know you can go only on what you read in the news, 1/2 of which is fabricated. While I have more sources that are in touch with people over there. The khateeb gov't appointed had his own masjid near by and thru out all this massacre lot of alims spoke against the gov't but this guy remained silent. When he was about to give the khutbah, the locals of the masjid stopped him. they had 3 conditions one of which was that only a kin of one of matyred is allowed to give khutbah. This khateeb didn't even stay for jummah and just left the masjid.

The gov't also had painted the masjid white/pale yellow and change the name to "jamia hafsa masjid" as on of their pathetic ways to erase the massacre they committed on muslims. The residents started painting the masjid back to the red color and thru the gov'ts name board out, replacing with with their "gazi Lal Masid". The whole nation is against the gov't right now for this atrocity it committed against the innocents and the house of Allah.
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Looking at it with that much information, does change the perspective. The peoples anger is very much understood based on what you just posted. Based on that the appointed Khateeb had no right to give the Khutbah.

I always find it hard to justify violence. but, that is easy for me to say sitting in a nice comfortable safe home. It is much different when one is actually living the situation. I am in no position to either condemn the action of either the students or the Gov't. But, your post does shed much light on understanding why it is such a violent event and not merely some hot heads looking for excitement.

In order to fully understand things it is necessary to be able to "feel" them as the people living them experience them. Those of us who are not living the event are not in any posistion to judge.
 
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you will see more and more evidence come to light as independent investigations have started and no one is buying what the gov't tells the public anymore. Majority of the country is against the dictator and are very angry right now. Just recently they found out that white phosphorous was used on the civilians, lot more will come to light in time and lot more we may never know, like the secrete mass graves and multiple bodies being stuffed in each coffin.

http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/07/14/white-phosphorus-used-in-operation-silence/
 
Al Muwahhidah said:
:salamext:

islamirama, do you agree that you can pray behind a Muslim whether he be pious or a sinner? If not, would you mind posting juristic proofs for that?
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:wasalamex

what does that have to do with anything here?
 
Woodrow said:
Looking at it with that much information, does change the perspective. The peoples anger is very much understood based on what you just posted. Based on that the appointed Khateeb had no right to give the Khutbah.

I always find it hard to justify violence. but, that is easy for me to say sitting in a nice comfortable safe home. It is much different when one is actually living the situation. I am in no position to either condemn the action of either the students or the Gov't. But, your post does shed much light on understanding why it is such a violent event and not merely some hot heads looking for excitement.

In order to fully understand things it is necessary to be able to "feel" them as the people living them experience them. Those of us who are not living the event are not in any posistion to judge.
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If I was in your place, my choice would be simple!

All you have to do is pick one of the 2 choices:
  1. Worship Allah behind a govenment appointed Imaam regardless of him being a sinner or a pious man.
  2. Take part in riots and/or blow-up a few dozen Muslim Policemen and or soldiers thus provoke a cycle of violence, death and destruction
Wasalam Alaikum to Muslims
 
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NoName55 said:
If I was in your place, my choice would be simple!

all you have to do is pick one of the 2 choices:
  1. Worship Allah behind a govenment appointed Imaam regardless of him being a sinner or a pious man.
  2. Take part in riots and/or blow-up a few dozen Muslim Policemen and or soldiers thus provoke a cicle of violence, death and destruction
wasalam alaikum to Muslims
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From my nice safe place here and not having to live with the consequences my answer is number one. But, that is based on my perspective from what I see.

In answering it needs to be understood that I am not subject to the immediate effects of any changes to the Masjid that choice may bring.

It is important to understand the reason behind each persons choice before any condemnation be made of the choice.

I believe the only applicable general statement I can make would be to say that violence is not justified, if any peaceful choice exists. Violence needs to be avoided if it is possible to live and worship Allah(swt) without resorting to it.

I do not know the needs and desires of the people of Islamabad, much less the People of Pakistan. I can only pray that they will act with guidance and that their choices will be based for the goal of good and not upon self desires.
 
Al Muwahhidah said:
Do you think being a government stooge is a sin? You don't have to be paranoid, as I'm not playing any games.:)
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what are you trying to say exactly?

rather then beating around the bush, just make the point you're trying to make. And we'll try clear up your confusion and assumptions then.
 
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Showkat said:
JazakAllah khair

Please forward and post this poem widely also comment on other poems I have posted on this ofrum.
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very good poem. its high time pple got to know the truth from those who know and not the lies we are fed by the contoled media.

ps did u write it urself?
 
doorster said:
now, how do you know he is sitting in Islamabad and getting the truth out for you?

How do you know he is not somewhere in England busy manufacturing truth about Pakistan like he used to do about England and Muslims there
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ill rather believe wht hes saying than believe the lies i hear everyday from the media. anyway, the truth is just an individuals perspective of an issue!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Al Muwahhidah said:
:salamext:

I'm not confused alhamdulillah. Which part of my question isn't clear? I'll rephrase it inshaAllah:

If the new khateeb is a government stooge, does that make him a sinner?
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:wasalamex

I know where you're going with this, knew it from the start. However, Your question is irrelevant as it does not even relate to the issue on hand. He's innocence or sins has nothing to do with it.
 
islamirama said:
:wasalamex

I know where you're going with this, knew it from the start. However, Your question is irrelevant as it does not even relate to the issue on hand. He's innocence or sins has nothing to do with it.
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Where am I going with this? It has something to do with it actually. You obviously think there is something wrong with being a gov't stooge, since you see this as a valid reason to not pray behind a khateeb. You link to IslamQA in your user title, so I assume that you take that as a reputable source? Well, according to Shaykh Salih al-Munajjid (and also the favoured opinion of shaykh 'Uthaymeen rahimahullaah), the correct opinion is that you can pray behind a sinner, and the reasons for this are:

1 – The general meaning of the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “The people should be led in prayer by the one among them who has most knowlegde of the Book of Allaah.” (Narrated by Muslim, 673).

2 – The specific meaning of the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) concerning oppressive leaders who lead the prayer at the wrong time: “Pray the prayer on time, then if you come to them at the time when they are praying, pray with them, and it will be a naafil prayer for you.” (Narrated by Muslim, 648). And al-Bukhaari narrated: “If the imaam leads the prayer correctly, then he and you will receive the rewards, but if he makes a mistake (in the prayer) then you will receive the reward for the prayer and the sin (will be his).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 694).

3 – The Sahaabah, including Ibn ‘Umar, used to pray behind al-Hajjaaj, and Ibn ‘Umar was one of the keenest of people to follow the Sunnah and pay attention to it, and al-Hajjaaj was known to be one of the most rebellious and sinful of the slaves of Allaah.

It might also be said that everyone whose prayer is valid, it is also valid for him to lead the prayer. There is no evidence to suggest that we should differentiate between the validity of the prayer and the validity of leading the prayer, because if a person commits a sin, he does so for himself, but this is merely theoretical. See al-Sharh al-Mumti’ by Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, (4/304).​

Source

And if you do not consider it to be a sin, then there is no issue here then is there? If 'Abdullah ibn'Umar radhiyAllahu 'anhu would pray behind the likes of al-Hajjaaj, the rebellious tyrant, then I do not see why there is a need to spread fitnah? Who do you consider to be more evil, al-Hajjaaj or this supposed gov't stooge? And who do you consider to have more hikmah, you or 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar?

And by the way, if you consider Musharraf to be Muslim, you should know that it is the manhaj of the people of the Sunnah to not spread the faults of the Muslim rulers, aslong as they establish the prayer. Unless you think Musharraf is a disbeliever, then that's another issue.
 

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