Last Supper?

[Grace Seeker]

The true Christians before or After Islam?

You are the one who was using the term "true Christians", saying that these are whom the Qur'an was speaking of when speaking of Christans as distinct from Christians of today. I'm just adopting the term you used. But to make the question simpler for you:

Would Christians, as Christians are spoken of in the Qur'an, be pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) as Muslims understand him, one who followed the Guidance of Allah and had received the knowledge of the Qur'an?

 

[Al-manar]

Would Christians, as Christians are spoken of in the Qur'an, be pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) as Muslims understand him, one who followed the Guidance of Allah and had received the knowledge of the Qur'an?

Allow me to make the answer simpler for you:

The Quran speaks of a group that call themselves christians but they are not true christians


5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they ignored a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

And speaks of another group as true follower of the message of jesus(the true monotheist,Torah keepers till Islam,and Muslims till day of judgment):

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


Would the first type be pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) as Muslims understand him, one who followed the Guidance of Allah and had received the knowledge of the Qur'an?

2:120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

I hope you understood me that time....

peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

Al-manar, the reason I have pushed so hard on this is that your original statment is different than your present one.

peace sojourn


The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

Allow me to make the answer simpler for you:

The Quran speaks of a group that call themselves christians but they are not true christians

In truth, the term "true Christian" is never once used in either the Qur'an, nor the Hadith of the prophet. The term "Christian" is used, and when it is used it is used to refer to those who have a belief that is different than that which is taught by the Qur'an. Simply put, your first statement was in gross error. You reported something as being in the Qur'an that simply is not there. I accept your second statement as being an expression of your belief.

The term "true Christians" is one of your own making. I understand that it reflects the belief system that you ascribe to. You believe that the first Christians followed a different teaching than Christians do today. But as far as what the Qur'an itself is referring to when it refers to Christians and their teachings, it does not actually refer to that group which you believe once existed. It actually is referring to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs.

 

[Al-manar]

Peace

your first statement was in gross error.

If so, correct me and name this group properaly

(I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith)...

You believe that the first Christians followed a different teaching than Christians do today. .

well, do the following verses speak about one and same group?

I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith.

and
Those reject faith who say Jesus son of Mary is God.

But as far as what the Qur'an itself is referring to when it refers to Christians and their teachings, it does not actually refer to that group which you believe once existed. .

That is right and that is what I posted before !..

those who Say Jesus is God can't be the group That the Quran named (followers of the true message of Jesus)..... which is synonyms to (true christians)

It actually is referring to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs .

The belief of Jesus as God is a reference to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs ?

or

following of the true message of Jesus(according to the Quran) is a reference to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs ?

pick one of them as you don't have a third choice.....
and plz ,support your next post from the Quran... thanx

Regards

 

[Grace Seeker]

That is right and that is what I posted before !..

No. That isn't what you actually posted.

Peace

If so, correct me

I believe you were in gross error when you made the following statement:

The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

The above is what you actually posted. You make the statement that the Qur'an speaks of a "true Christian" which it defines as you have as being one who follows the religion of Jesus.

First, the term "true Christian" is never once used in the Qur'an. Only the term "Christian", without the adjective your provided, is used. So that is one error.

But even more, when the term "Christian is used" it is used to speak of people who do not follow the religion of Muhammad.

From surah 2:120

Never will the Jews nor the christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) guidance. And if you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) were to follow their (Jews and christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'an), then you would have against Allah neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper.

Since, according to your understanding, Jesus taught the same message as Muhammed, then those who are being referred to as Christians in this passage, and not following the religion of Jesus either and must not (by your understanding) qualify as "true Christians". Christians, as identified by the Qur'an want Muhammad, to follow their Christian religion, which is quite different than what Muhammad actually did follow. Indeed, this group of Christians which the Qur'an actually does speak about have beliefs that are nearly the opposite of that which you claimed. And that is why I said that you were gross error.


Please, understand. I am not challenging your belief as to what you personally consider a "true Christian" to be. I am challenging your statment that such a term is identified a particular way in the Qur'an. If you can find any place where the Qur'an identifies what a "true Christian" is, (not just a follower of Islam or true religion, but the actual term that you used "true Christian") I believe it is now time for you to present it, or stand corrected.

 

[Al-manar]

the term "true Christian" is never once used in the Qur'an.

I have used the term to differentiate between it and the term (christian) used by christians...

the misunderstanding is over !!

according to your understanding, Jesus taught the same message as Muhammed,

Not typically..

Christians, as identified by the Qur'an want Muhammad, to follow their Christian religion, which is quite different than what Muhammad actually did follow. Indeed, this group of Christians which the Qur'an actually does speak about have beliefs that are nearly the opposite of that which you claimed.

Again my question ,and we are not going anywhere till you answer it...

Do the following 2 verses speak about one and same group?


I will make those who follow thee(Jesus) superior to those who reject faith ,I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection (Quran 3.55).

And

Those reject faith who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary(Quran 5:72)

One who would read the previous and claim that the Quran doesn't view christians as two groups (true and false) ,then one must have a reading comprehension problem...

or you disagree?

Regards

 

[Grace Seeker]

One who would read the previous and claim that the Quran doesn't view christians as two groups (true and false) ,then one must have a reading comprehension problem...

or you disagree?

Regards

One who would read the previous and claim that the Qur'an uses the term "true Christian" at all, must be seeing things. It may or may not view Christians as true and false, but it never actually uses the term "true Christian" as you have claimed it does. To move on to a discussion of how the Qur'an views Christians is to change the focus away from that which I challenged you on.

Before one can say what or who a term refers to, one must actually find that term in use. So, please, show me where the Qur'an actually uses the term "true Christian" before you continue to say things like: "The term true Christian according to the Quran : refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus."


The Qur'an has to actually use that term before one can say that the particular term has a specific meaning in the Qur'an. Until you can show me the actually occurance of your term "true Chrisitian" within the text of the Qur'an, the rest of what you have to say is meaningless.

 

[Al-manar]

One who would read the previous and claim that the Qur'an uses the term "true Christian" at all, must be seeing things. It may or may not view Christians as true and false, but it never actually uses the term "true Christian" as you have claimed it does. To move on to a discussion of how the Qur'an views Christians is to change the focus away from that which I challenged you on.

It uses a synonyms
I will make those who follow thee(Jesus) superior to those who reject faith


and talking about challenge ,I challenge you to claim that "true Christians" and "those who follow thee(Jesus)" can't be the exact meaning...



I challenge you ,too ,to claim that "false Christians" and

Those reject faith who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary(Quran 5:72) can't be the exact meaning...

 

[Grace Seeker]

It uses a synonyms
I will make those who follow thee(Jesus) superior to those who reject faith


and talking about challenge ,I challenge you to claim that "true Christians" and "those who follow thee(Jesus)" can't be the exact meaning...



I challenge you ,too ,to claim that "false Christians" and

Those reject faith who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary(Quran 5:72) can't be the exact meaning...

Here is the problem with your challenge. It doesn't change anything.

You said that the term "true Christians in the Qur'an' and no such term is to be found in the Qur'an. It is like arguing that the term USA in the Qur'an stands for United States of American. You might be correct that the term USA does indeed stand for United States of America, but as the term USA is actually never found in the Qur'an the rest of any such statement is meaningless.

Argue all you want that you believe that true Christians are those who follow Jesus and that false Christians are those who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary. I'll recognize that as your opinion and that you base it on easily identifiable Qur'anic passages. But don't say this nonsense about the term "true Christians" in the Qur'an being such and such until you can actually produce it.

When I read the Qur'an here is the description that I see of Christians:
1) Christians are people who will never be pleased with Muhammad
2) that if Muhammad were to follow Christian desires then he would have no Wali against Allah.

And no adjectives as to true or false are provided.

 

[Al-manar]

When I read the Qur'an here is the description that I see of Christians:
1) Christians are people who will never be pleased with Muhammad
2) that if Muhammad were to follow Christian desires then he would have no Wali against Allah.

.

That is Elementary reading of what the Quran tells about christians , the complete reading as follows:

1- The christians who say that Jesus is God simply are misbelievers.[Qur'an 5:17

2- They call themselves christians,but it is mere a title doesn't reflect reality

Qur'an 5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they ignored a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

note that they who named themselves christians not God.

3- They are destined to hell ,if not repenting

[098:006] Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein .


On the other hand

3- The followers of Jesus (name them whatever u wish) will be above (in morality) those who misbelieve (Those indeed misbelieve who say God is the Messiah) not only after the termination of the mission of Jesus on Earth but also TILL DAY OF JUDGMENT....

[003:055] Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


Those followers of the true message of jesus may be viewed by those who call themselves christians(who worship Jesus), as heretics ,misleaded,can't be redeemed by keeping the law ,etc ..

we ,on the other hand, the followers of the law ,trust God's law and keep it ,not for God's benefit but ours... and we feel sorry for the moral downfall of those who depend on blood not the law to redeem them...


In sum , the claim that christians is a title has to be a reference to those who say Jesus is God ,is ignorance not only of the Quran who differentiate clearly between (the follower of the true meassage of jesus) versus (the misbeliever who take Jesus as God) but also the recorded hsitory of those who followed the law and denied Jesus as God....

 

[Grace Seeker]

That is Elementary reading of what the Quran tells about christians , the complete reading as follows:

1- The christians who say that Jesus is God simply are misbelievers.[Qur'an 5:17

2- They call themselves christians,but it is mere a title doesn't reflect reality

Qur'an 5:14
note that they who named themselves christians not God.


On the other hand

3- The followers of Jesus (name them whatever u wish) will be above (in morality) those who misbelieve (Those indeed misbelieve who say God is the Messiah) not only after the termination of the mission of Jesus on Earth but also TILL DAY OF JUDGMENT....


Those followers of the true message of jesus may be viewed by those who call themselves christians(who worship Jesus), as heretics ,misleaded,can't be redeemed by keeping the law ,etc ..

we ,on the other hand, the followers of the law ,trust God's law and keep it ,not for God's benefit but ours... and we feel sorry for the moral downfall of those who depend on blood not the law to redeem them...


In sum , the claim that christians is a title has to be a reference to those who say Jesus is God ,is ignorance not only of the Quran who differentiate clearly between (the follower of the true meassage of jesus) versus (the misbeliever who take Jesus as God) but also the recorded hsitory of those who followed the law and denied Jesus as God....

Al-manar, I'm not disputing your interpretation of Islamic theology vis-a-vis your understanding of who are and who are not "true Christians" by your faith's particular definition of what that would entail.

I'm disputing the accuracy of your statement as actually reflecting the language of the Qur'an.

The term true Christian according to the Quran :

"According to the Qur'an", meaning that specific term -- "true Christian" -- can actually found in the Qur'an.


Let me give an illustration where I would have the same beef with a Christian author and maybe you will get my point.

If someone wrote that "the everlasting life that Jesus offers to people in his encounter with the rich young ruler (Mark 10) is only available to those who are willing to abandon everything else in order to make following Jesus the priority of their life." I would object. I would not object to the theology. I would object to impreciseness of their langauge and word choice.

First, I would object that there is no rich young ruler in Mark's gospel. There is a rich man in Mark's gospel, Matthew tells us that he is young, but only Luke tells us that he is a ruler. While it is most likely the same story told by each Gospel writer just emphasizing three different aspects of the rich man, we should not impose the adjectives of Luke or Matthew onto Mark's story unless Mark himself includes them.

Second, I would object that in the story Jesus doesn't talk about "everlasting life," he talks about "eternal life." And while I might perceive the terminology as being synonymous, while I might even make a convincing argument to that effect, that does not mean that I can say the term "everlasting life" is a part of Mark's Gospel narrative. In fact, Mark never uses the term "everlasting life" in his entire Gospel. And to talk about it as if he had, when he could have but didn't is, in my opinion, to be guilty of re-writing the Gospel account.

If I want to interpret "eternal life" to be synonymous as "everlasting life" or "heaven" or "paradise", those are all choices I can make and share with my readers. But if I say something such as "when Jesus talks about 'everlasting life' in Mark's account of Jesus' life and ministry", then I am guilty of fabricating the story to my own ends because I haven't been truthful with the reader because I have inserted my own words in place of the author's word choice.

So, I understand that you may indeed view that "true Christians" are not those that follow Jesus, but that follow the religion of Jesus. And you may arrive at that conclusion as the most logical extension of the Quran's teachings with regard to what it meant to be a Christian in the time of Jesus. And you may even one day succeed at convincing me that it is so. But, I will still object to the implication that the Qur'an uses the term "true Christians" to mean anything. I will object because the Qur'an doesn't actually use the term "true Christians" at all. Because to say, "according the Qur'an," a term means something when the reference term is not actually to be found in the Qur'an is to re-write the Qur'an, and I can't believe a true Muslim would ever do that.

 

[Al-manar]

Well thank you for your long speech over and over again which I thought it would produce something new and interesting for the thread viewers! ....

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, you still think that this is an accurate statement?

The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

I keep repeating myself, because you keep insisting that your statement is not in error, but you have yet to show me any place where the Qur'an actually makes a reference to the term "true Christian". You keep wanting to move on to other things, but those other things are not the point. All I'm pointing out is that the this term simply does not exist in the Qur'an. Of course I keep repeating the same thing for as long as you continue to deny your error, or show me mine.

You've not shown me that I am in error, for all you do is to repeatedly express Islamic thought. You've yet to actually produce the term "true Christian" from the Qur'an. All you have to do is show me those two words used together in as a single simple phrase. If not, admit your error. The idea, as you expressed it, may be Islamic, but it isn't Qur'anic.

 

[Al-manar]

So, you still think that this is an accurate statement?

.

You are at it again

If you are concentrating ,I have early in our discussion eliminated such misunderstanding between us ,u thinking that I meant the word(literally) exist in the Quran and I said not, though later I showed you It is the same exact meaning of the other…

Read again

I did a search of 4 different English translations of the Qur'an and I could not find a single reference to the term "true Christian"..

you are right
I have used the term to differentiate between it and the term (Christian) used by Christians....

your dissatisfaction by me using the synonymous of the word not only because it is not mentioned literally ,but also you made a wild assertion .

But as far as what the Qur'an itself is referring to when it refers to Christians and their teachings, it does not actually refer to that group which you believe once existed. It actually is referring to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs.

That was error; and you been corrected..

Well, I hope the original topic Last Supper, been answered well..

I have more important threads to post .

best wishes.