Let's talk about Israel

[Orangeduck]

Hello everyone

I want to make something very clear...I do not want to talk about Arab-Israeli violence towards each other. I do not want to talk about who is blame for violence or "who started it". That conversation can go on indefinitely.

What I do want to talk about is hatred towards Israel from a purely theological point of view.

Something I was taught as a kid was, "any land that was conquered by Muslims, must always remain in muslim hands." I was never taught to hate Israel, but I was taught that Israel must be destroied because the land used to belong unde Islamic jurisdiction.

However, something I was never taught was that Spain must be returned to Muslim hands. I was never taught Greece, Austria or Hungary must return to Muslim hands.

Why is it that I hear of hatred towards Israel and how it must become Islamic again, but I need hear the same towards the other countries I mentioned?

Again, let's not turn this into a Arab-Israeli blame debate

 

[aadil77]

Greetings,

What does 'Israel must be destroied' mean? What is 'hatred towards Israel'? If you want to discuss this topic avoid spouting typical zionist lies

Israel is not a person, we hate the Zionist Government not its people.

What your parents forgot to teach you is not our problem, yes all lands conquered by muslims must and will return to us including the ones you mentioned. The religion of God will prevail in every part of the world - this is part of our creed.

The palestine issue has become to much of a nationalistic one which is why its always in the media spotlight, muslims have forgotten about other muslim lands.

 

[dqsunday]

The more I read and learn about Islam..the more I realize I have forgotten about 90% of my history lessons in high school. In other words, I really do want to research middle-eastern history from the time of the prophets to the current century. I never did like hating anybody unless I know the full story. Even then I really don't like hating anything, what I do like is understanding as much as I can, what all the issues are. Then decide.

 

[TrueStranger]

And I guess the "kid Muslim you" was never told about the importance of Jerusalem?

Oh LAwd....!!!:exhausted

 

[Orangeduck]

And I guess the "kid Muslim you" was never told about the importance of Jerusalem?

Oh LAwd....!!!:exhausted

We can talk about Jerusalem if you want

Jerusalem was never the capital of any Islamic kingdom or empire. It was never a cultural center. Muhammad never saw the city. Islam, other than making a claim about the city's importance, really has no connection to the city.

The dome of the rock, the landmark usually associated with Muhammad's night journey, has nothing to do with Muhammad. Anyone who has ever seen the DOTR will notice that there is nothing to associate the building with the night journey (none of the inscriptions on the dome refer to the night journey...they are all anti-trinity quotes.)

While most of Islamic history, Muslims did allow freedom of religion in the city...it was only in the past 60 years that Jordan barred Jewish presence in their part of the city.

 

[GodIsOne]

These "Jews" are nothing more than deceivers. Abusing Allah's name and trying to justify the colonization and oppression of others is blasphemous to Allah. Their racism and intolerance is unacceptable to any Muslim.

It's about protecting the rights of Islamic lands against western colonialism which Zionism is a manifestation of.

 

[TrueStranger]

We can talk about Jerusalem if you want

Jerusalem was never the capital of any Islamic kingdom or empire. It was never a cultural center. Muhammad never saw the city. Islam, other than making a claim about the city's importance, really has no connection to the city.

The dome of the rock, the landmark usually associated with Muhammad's night journey, has nothing to do with Muhammad. Anyone who has ever seen the DOTR will notice that there is nothing to associate the building with the night journey (none of the inscriptions on the dome refer to the night journey...they are all anti-trinity quotes.)

While most of Islamic history, Muslims did allow freedom of religion in the city...it was only in the past 60 years that Jordan barred Jewish presence in their part of the city.

Just because you deny the Mi'raj does not mean that Islam or Muslims have no connection to Jerusalem. The 2nd Caliph, Omar took over Jerusalem without any fight in 637. But as an "Ex-Muslim", you know all about that, don't you? ^o)

I will not bother arguing with you about matters pertaining to the Qu'ran, just your knowledge about basic History 101.

What kind of a history/Current buff are you? In the past 60 years Jordan had no authority over Jerusalem. The West Bank and East Jerusalem are still under Israeli Occupation, and it has been about 63 years now.

Oh, Lawd :skeleton:!!! Do a little bit more research before pretending to know something.

 

[Orangeduck]

Just because you deny the Mi'raj does not mean that Islam or Muslims have no connection to Jerusalem. The 2nd Caliph, Omar took over Jerusalem without any fight in 637. But as an "Ex-Muslim", you know all about that, don't you? ^o)

I will not bother arguing with you about matters pertaining to the Qu'ran, just your knowledge about basic History 101.

What kind of a history/Current buff are you? In the past 60 years Jordan had no authority over Jerusalem. The West Bank and East Jerusalem are still under Israeli Occupation, and it has been about 63 years now.

Oh, Lawd :skeleton:!!! Do a little bit more research before pretending to know something.

You might want to do some research before you make fun of others.

Jordan controlled East Jerusalem from 1949 - 1967. In June of 1967, Israel gained control of the entire city.

Since then, Israel has given everyone complete freedom of worship.

Can you please give me a historical reason as to islam's connection to the city? Muslims conquered the city, but that doesn't give them a connection to the city. If it did, that would mean Jews have a connection to Iran. Christians have a connection to Algeria...and so many other examples like that.

Give me a reason as to why Jerusalem is important to Islam (remember, there is no evidence at all to connect the Dome of the rock to the night journey)

 

[TrueStranger]

You might want to do some research before you make fun of others.

Jordan controlled East Jerusalem from 1949 - 1967. In June of 1967, Israel gained control of the entire city.

Since then, Israel has given everyone complete freedom of worship.

Can you please give me a historical reason as to islam's connection to the city? Muslims conquered the city, but that doesn't give them a connection to the city. If it did, that would mean Jews have a connection to Iran. Christians have a connection to Algeria...and so many other examples like that.

Give me a reason as to why Jerusalem is important to Islam (remember, there is no evidence at all to connect the Dome of the rock to the night journey)

You're pretty easy to make fun of. You said, and I quote

"it was only in the past 60 years that Jordan barred Jewish presence in their part of the city."

Jordan had no control over Jerusalem for the past 60 years, Israel did. 1949 till 1967 is not 60 years. Basic Facts you refuse to acknowledge. Another basic fact is that "the West Bank Is Currently an Occupied Territory". And Israel does not allow Muslim men under the age of 40 to enter the Old City to Pray at Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Again, if you are denying the Mi'raj, there is no point in having any discussions about Islam's connection with Jerusalem.

Now tell me more about Jordon barring Jewish presence in Jerusalem for the past 60 years...... please

P.S. Do you think that East Jerusalem is under Occupation?

 

[Orangeduck]

1949 till 1967 is not 60 years

I didn't say "Jordan controlled the city for 60 years". I said "it was only in the past 60", which means I was correct Granted, I could have worded what I said a bit better.


Again, if you are denying the Mi'raj, there is no point in having any discussions about Islam's connection with Jerusalem.


Ok then, tell me, if the night journed did in fact happen, then why is there no mention of it insribed on the DOTR? There is anti-trinity comments inscribed on the DORT, but nothing about the night journey. Why is that? I can tell you what historians think of the question, but I am actually interested in your thoughts. I'm not trying to argue, but this is a question I have asked muslims for years and never got an answer.

As for Jordan preventing Jews from entering East Jerusalem, prehaps you are not familiar with the barbed wire barriors that divided the city for almost 20 years. The Wailing Wall is located in EJ, and all you have to do is read reports from prior to the 6 day war and you will see just how badly Jordan hated the Jews. it's not a secrete.

As for EJ...that gets highly complex.

UN resolution 478 declaires Israeli Jerusalem Law as void. However, the UN also knows and has stated that no country can tell any other country where they can or can not place their capital. For example, if the USA wanted to move the capital to Chicago, the UN can declair it "void", but it wouldn't matter. The capital would still be Chicago reguardless if the UN recognized it or not.

 

[aadil77]

We can talk about Jerusalem if you want

That's a lot of big statements there and you were alive at the time were you?

Jerusalem was never the capital of any Islamic kingdom or empire.

We've never claimed it was, it was the centre where prayers would be directed to by followers of previous prophets.

It was never a cultural center.

Jews, Christians and Muslims living in one city not a cultural centre then I don't what is

Muhammad never saw the city.

Proof?

Islam, other than making a claim about the city's importance, really has no connection to the city.

Proof?

The dome of the rock, the landmark usually associated with Muhammad's night journey, has nothing to do with Muhammad.

Proof?

Anyone who has ever seen the DOTR will notice that there is nothing to associate the building with the night journey (none of the inscriptions on the dome refer to the night journey...they are all anti-trinity quotes.)

Yes because the dome was not instantly erected after the night journey by the prophet himself. Later rulers did what they wanted with the dome.

If some of them decided it was better to use the dome to guide christians who blindly worship a mangod then I fully support that decision

 

[aadil77]

(remember, there is no evidence at all to connect the Dome of the rock to the night journey)

Give me evidence that prophet Adam was the first man on earth

Give me evidence that prophet Moses split up the sea when escaping from the pharoah

Give me evidence that Mary was a virgin

Give me this evidence then I'll give you your evidence

I want historical evidence

 

[TrueStranger]

1949 till 1967 is not 60 years

I didn't say "Jordan controlled the city for 60 years". I said "it was only in the past 60", which means I was correct Granted, I could have worded what I said a bit better.

You said Jordan barred Jews from the city in the "past 60 years". We all know who controlled the city for the "past 60 years". Don't blame your ignorance on how you worded your sentence.

Again, if you are denying the Mi'raj, there is no point in having any discussions about Islam's connection with Jerusalem.


Ok then, tell me, if the night journed did in fact happen, then why is there no mention of it insribed on the DOTR? There is anti-trinity comments inscribed on the DORT, but nothing about the night journey. Why is that? I can tell you what historians think of the question, but I am actually interested in your thoughts. I'm not trying to argue, but this is a question I have asked muslims for years and never got an answer.

LOL! My LAWD!!! I'm sorry, but the Dome of the Rock is NOT Al-AQSA Mosque! The Qu'ran talks about Al-Aqsa Mosque, not the Dome of the Rock that was built by Caliph Abdi Malik. Again, how many years were you raised as a Muslim?

As for EJ...that gets highly complex.

UN resolution 478 declaires Israeli Jerusalem Law as void. However, the UN also knows and has stated that no country can tell any other country where they can or can not place their capital. For example, if the USA wanted to move the capital to Chicago, the UN can declair it "void", but it wouldn't matter. The capital would still be Chicago reguardless if the UN recognized it or not.

You think that East Jerusalem is Israel's Capital? This is interesting. For your information, Israel as a country does not have the authority to place East Jerusalem as it capital, because East Jerusalem is not "Part of Israel Sovereignty". East Jerusalem is the Occupied Capital of the Palestinian State. It has been agreed upon already. Occupying the City does not directly translate to being the legitimate rulers of the city. It's VOID for a good reason.

Your example is completely irrelevant and insignificant, America does not occupy Chicago. Israel occupies East Jerusalem. :exhausted

 

[TrueStranger]

Brother Aadil, the man is confusing the Dome of Rock with Al-Aqsa Mosque. :hiding::heated:

 

[Orangeduck]

You said Jordan barred Jews from the city in the "past 60 years".

If you want to talk semantics, then what I said was correct. 1949 was 63 years ago...so math agrees with me

LOL! My LAWD!!! I'm sorry, but the Dome of the Rock is NOT Al-AQSA Mosque!

This is the first correct thing you have said. I am talking about the DOTR...not Al Aqsa. I never meant Al Aqsa, and i wasn't refering to it.

The Qu'ran talks about Al-Aqsa Mosque

Please look up as to when Al Aqsa was built. It was built AFTER the date that traditional muslim claim the quran was finished. Therefore, it would be impossible for the quran to mention Al Aqsa...unless you are trying to say that the quran was written later than the typical muslim date. If you don't see the problem with your claim, then I am really not sure what to say.

You think that East Jerusalem is Israel's Capital

Did I say that? I don't think I did. Please read everything I say before replying I was speaking from a legeal point of view. No country can say where Israel can or can not place their capital. If you read what a capital is, there are 2 requirements:

1) It must be declaired by law
2) It must serve all the functions of a capital.

Is Jerusalem declaired by Israeli law to be the Capital? Yes
Does it serve as the Capital? Yes. The Prime Minister's residence is located there. Same with the High Courts and all branchs of the goverments are located there.

You will also notice that international recognition is a requirement. As of this moment, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Maybe one day it wont be, but that day is not today. From a legeal standpoint, Jerusalem is the Capital, and no ammount of spin can change that. This is not my opinion. This is purely the law.

East Jerusalem is the Occupied Capital of the Palestinian State. It has been agreed upon already

1) Is palestine a country or a state? No
2) Can a non-existant country / state declair a capital? No
3) However, Palestine has done so (but it is not legeally binding)
4) Does the city serve as the Captial of the non-existant country / state? No

Pray tell, how is it the Capital of palestine?

And no, it has not been agreed upon. The UN more pro-palestinian now than it has ever been, and it still vetos all palestinian claims to statehood.

 

[TrueStranger]

You said Jordan barred Jews from the city in the "past 60 years".

If you want to talk semantics, then what I said was correct. 1949 was 63 years ago...so math agrees with me

Do you even know what the "past 60 years" means? You did not say "60 years ago Jordan did X". But whatever.

LOL! My LAWD!!! I'm sorry, but the Dome of the Rock is NOT Al-AQSA Mosque!

This is the first correct thing you have said. I am talking about the DOTR...not Al Aqsa. I never meant Al Aqsa, and i wasn't refering to it.

And why are you talking about the Dome of the Rock? What does it has to do with the Qu'ran? You haven't stated anything correct so far.

The Qu'ran talks about Al-Aqsa Mosque

Please look up as to when Al Aqsa was built. It was built AFTER the date that traditional muslim claim the quran was finished. Therefore, it would be impossible for the quran to mention Al Aqsa...unless you are trying to say that the quran was written later than the typical muslim date. If you don't see the problem with your claim, then I am really not sure what to say.

You're ignorance is more revealing by the second. The Qu'ran says al-Masjidu l Aqsa referring to the Farthest Mosque. Omar built the structure of the mosque on the site to which the Qu'ran refers to as the "Farthest Mosque". The current structure of the Mosque was reconstructed over several times. And you supposedly read the Qu'ran often?

You think that East Jerusalem is Israel's Capital

Did I say that? I don't think I did. Please read everything I say before replying I was speaking from a legeal point of view. No country can say where Israel can or can not place their capital. If you read what a capital is, there are 2 requirements:

1) It must be declaired by law
2) It must serve all the functions of a capital.

If I remember correctly, there was a question mark at the end of my sentence. You purposefully excluded the question mark when you quoted me. Anyways, you seem you know nothing about the law.

Is Jerusalem declaired by Israeli law to be the Capital? Yes
Does it serve as the Capital? Yes. The Prime Minister's residence is located there. Same with the High Courts and all branchs of the goverments are located there.

Again, East Jerusalem is Occupied by Israel, whether the Prime Minister's residence is located there or not is completely irrelevant. Can a nation declare its capital to be on land that is occupied? NO! What is Israel doing residing it's Prime Minister at an occupied territory? He is nothing more than a dirty occupier.

East Jerusalem is an occupied territory, and Israel, the occupying Power, is fully bound by the provisions of international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention. Article 49 of the Convention stipulates that: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies”. Settlement expansion and transfer of Israeli citizens to settlements, as well as forced-transfer of Palestinian residents out of the City, constitute unquestionable violations of Article 49 of the Convention. The international community must act against the persisting violation of international law, or will risk undermining the credibility of this important international legal framework, on which other conflict situations in the world depend.

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/40FB4C52869DAA23852576EB0077BD4C

You will also notice that international recognition is a requirement. As of this moment, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Maybe one day it wont be, but that day is not today. From a legeal standpoint, Jerusalem is the Capital, and no ammount of spin can change that. This is not my opinion. This is purely the law.

East Jerusalem is the Occupied Capital of the Palestinian State. It has been agreed upon already

1) Is palestine a country or a state? No
2) Can a non-existant country / state declair a capital? No
3) However, Palestine has done so (but it is not legeally binding)
4) Does the city serve as the Captial of the non-existant country / state? No

Pray tell, how is it the Capital of palestine?

And no, it has not been agreed upon. The UN more pro-palestinian now than it has ever been, and it still vetos all palestinian claims to statehood.

When it comes to the "Two-State Solution" East Jerusalem is the future capital of the Palestinian State and the current occupied territory of the Palestinians.

Ha, purely the law? Your logic only works if you believe that East Jerusalem is not occupied. Again, do you think that East Jerusalem is part of Occupied West Bank? Or do you think that it's part of the Israel nation? Do look at a map of Israel and tell me if East Jerusalem and the West Bank is part of Israeli's border.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Orangeduck;

What I do want to talk about is hatred towards Israel from a purely theological point of view.

The Jews have the military and political power to govern Israel, so how does their scripture say they should treat foreigners living in their land. Although I say the land belongs to the Jews at the moment, their scriptures say that the land belongs to God, their scriptures are also our Old Testament.

Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Now we look at Israel and wonder how they live by their scriptures towards the aliens living in their land.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

 

[Hulk]

 

[Scimitar]

These "Jews" are nothing more than deceivers. Abusing Allah's name and trying to justify the colonization and oppression of others is blasphemous to Allah. Their racism and intolerance is unacceptable to any Muslim.

It's about protecting the rights of Islamic lands against western colonialism which Zionism is a manifestation of.

I think a distinction should be made between real Jews and those Zionist scum.

NEUTREI KARTA INTERNATIONAL
JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM​

We are a group of orthodox jews who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence and authority of the "so called" state of Israel and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating our position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism. Nutrei Karta opposes the so-called "state of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to jewish law.


One of the basics of judaism is that we are a people in exile due to divine decree. Accordingly, we are opposed to the ideology of Zionism, a recent "innovation", which seeks to force the end of the exile. Our banishment from the holy land will end miraculously at a time when all mankind will unite in the brotherly service of the Creator. In addition to condemning the central heresy of Zionism, we also reject its policy of aggression against all peoples. Today this cruelty manifests itself primarily in the brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. We proclaim that this inhuman policy is in violation of the Torah.


The true Jews are against the dispossessing of the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them. NKI (Nutrie Karta International) seeks peace and reconciliation with all peoples and nations. This is especially needed in our relations with the Islamic world, where Zionism has done so much to ruin Jewish - Muslim understanding. We welcome the assistance of all men of good will and stand by ready to all whose agenda coincides with ours.


Nutrei Karta International in New York.
PO Box 1316, Monsey N.Y 10952 // http://www.nkusa.org

Also, Imam Musa was on Pro-Zionist TV network in 2009 and he owned the presenter. Imam Musa even mentions that he isn't against Jews, but Zionists. He also recounted his meeting with the Rabbi of the Nutrei Karta organisation in NY. And he had good things to say about him.

He (Imam Abdul Ali Musa) also had good things to say about Hezbollah and Hamas... The man is fearless, masha-Allah.

here is the video:

Scimi

 

[Orangeduck]

And why are you talking about the Dome of the Rock? What does it has to do with the Qu'ran?

I dont generally like wikipedia, but here is the quote from it "According to Islamic tradition, the rock is the spot from which Muhammad ascended to Heaven accompanied by the angel Gabriel. Further, Muhammad was taken here by Gabriel to pray with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. After Muhammad's return, he called all who would believe him to join with him and be Muslim."

So as you can see, when I said DOTR, I actually meant it. I did not mean Al Aqsa. The DOTR is, according to later islamic tradition, was built to commemorate the night journey.


The Qu'ran says al-Masjidu l Aqsa referring to the Farthest Mosque. Omar built the structure of the mosque on the site to which the Qu'ran refers to as the "Farthest Mosque". The current structure of the Mosque was reconstructed over several times.

THe quran does refer to a furthest mosque, but that location, if you use logic, can't be Jerusalem. The quran does NOT say where the furthest mosque is located. Some english translations add "Jerusalem", but that is not in the arabic.

The idea that the furthest mosque is located in Jerusalem comes from Ibn Ishaq. He was writting about 100 years after muhammad died. I have often asked muslims how Ibn Ishaq had access to that information...and I have never received an answer. The rest of the details comes from Bukhari, who was compiling about 250 years after muhammad died. I asked the same question to muslims about Bukhari, and again, recieved no answer.

Anyways, you seem you know nothing about the law.



I love it when people claim "you don't know anything about X", yet give no examples to refute the claim. I clearly presented the law in an easy manor, and you couldn't give a single example to refute anything I said. It makes me laugh when you then say I dont know the law when you couldn't give a single reason or example to refute me

Again, East Jerusalem is Occupied by Israel, whether the Prime Minister's residence is located there or not is completely irrelevant. Can a nation declare its capital to be on land that is occupied? NO! What is Israel doing residing it's Prime Minister at an occupied territory? He is nothing more than a dirty occupier.

EJ is considered "occupied", but that doesn't matter in the least bit for placing your capital. The defination of a Capital doesn't qualify or consider occupation. All that is required is 1) It's declaired by law 2) it is the seat of government.

That is why encyclopoedias all agree with me. They all say Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel and there is no qualifiers.

Encyclopedia britannica says Jerusalem is the Capital but says it's not recognized. It does not say EJ is occupied and not the Capital.
CIA worldbook says Jerusalem is the Capital.

So, you asked can a nation declair a city to be a capital if its occupied. The answer is "yes". As long as it fulfills both requirements, and in the case of Jerusalem, it does. That is why Barak Obama, who has a degree from Harvard Law, has said that Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel. Obama, like the guy or not, is not stupid. He knows international law, and a statement like that would piss off the UN if it weren't true.

Ha, purely the law? Your logic only works if you believe that East Jerusalem is not occupied.

Nope, my example works from a legeal standpoint. Nothing I said has been my opinion. In fact, I haven't given my opinion on the subject (and I probably wont since opinions are meaningless on a subject like this).

I'm hoping you starting asking like an adult and admit you were wrong. Your last reply didn't add anything of worth to the conversation, and only proved your ignorance on the matter.