Libya Protests

[Maryan0]

Nothing could be done in the Ivory Coast without the use of ground forces, who would essentially be taking sides in a civil war.

Like they're doing in Libya?

Both Libya and the Ivory Coast have factions that are fighting a brutal dictator and his forces. In fact their situations mirror many other nations not that they get any coverage. Their situations are very much alike and not at all comparable to the situations that occurred in Rwanda and Kosovo.

In such a situation it would not be possible to gear all operations towards protecting civilians. Exactly the same would be true in Libya were ground troops used.. see above.

So aerial bombardment is the better option?

As to nations 'like' the Ivory Coast, the West, and particularly the US, still has massive collective guilt about not getting involved in Rwanda... something that almost certainly would have happened were it not for the Mogadishu incident the year before that effectively ended a substantial humanitarian intervention in Somalia, and the effect that had on public opinion. I note you deliberately exclude it with 'global south', but how much oil was there in Kosovo?

So the collective guilt and and the utterances of “never again” are keeping western nations from involving themselves in another humanitarian intervention in Africa? Because of “never again” the Ivory Coast is being ignored? I believe it would be the opposite. Your logic is faulty.
Like I said before the reason why intervention is being called for by the west and their puppets in the east is because Libya is an oil producing nation. The Ivory Coast is being Ignored because they aren’t and are therefore less important.and I exclude Kosovo from the global south because it is not a part of the global south. Both the situations in the Kosovo and Rwanda were situations of ethnic cleansing. That is not so with Libya. There is no genocide of a specific ethnic group going on. Your comparison falls short.
And I find it interesting that you would mention Somalia( my homeland) because the failure of the mission in Somalia did not end American intervention in Somali affairs. The Ethiopians who invaded Somalia in 2006 and toppled the Islamic courts which led to the much more extreme Al-shabaab coming into power were directly funded and equipped by the Americans who gave them the go ahead to invade in the first place. Not to mention the many Somali’s who were killed and displaced because of such fighting. Do you care at all about that? or did your concern flee for all the Somali's who lost their lives because of American intervention with your short attention span.

What you haven't said yet in criticizing everybody else is what you think should happen. The intervention only happened when it became apparent Gaddafi would be likely to win, and hence show "no mercy, no pity" to his opponents. Is that what you would prefer to see?

How about you leave Libya to the Libyans. It is not only hypocritical (like I said before) since other nations in similar circumstances like the Ivory Coast are not being “saved” but it is also not in the best interest of the west to intervene. What’s going on in Libya is not just about Kaddafi. Libya is a tribal country and what’s going on right now will most likely not be solved by Kaddafi’s departure. Not only will it cause resentment by pro-govt forces and other tribes loyal to Kaddafi but it will lead to worse tensions in the event that Kaddafi does leave between the tribes who were supported by outside intervention and those who weren’t. and the blame will again fall on the west. And then you will most likely come on this forum and complain about everything being blamed on the west. It’s very simplistic to think it will end with Kaddafi’s Leaving.
Western governments have supported many a tyrant in the Arab world for decades. The concern for the people in Libya and other N.African nations now is a little too late. If you as an individual care about the Libyans that’s fine but I don’t see why you and some others on this forums continue to try sell us the idea that your governments are not in it for the their own interests when almost every intervention in the past proves they have been.
Salam

 

[Argamemnon]

1) Because it's rather less brutal than many others, and attempting to get rid of it would kill far more people than not attempting to do so.

3) It's very hard to get rid of a democratic elected regime and provide any alternative other than a dictatorship of some sort.

2) Because there are no votes in it, and no economic interests in it.

3) Because militarily it would be extremely difficult to do (as Arab armies have already discovered on several occasions).

No Muslim country on earth does what Israel is doing in Palestine and Lebanon. If you are referring to the U.S. as a more brutal regime than Israel you are absolutely right. No argument there, we are in total agreement about that. Like most westerners you fail to realize that the most "brutal regimes" are those that attack and dominate and oppress other nations and peoples. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Hizbullah has defeated Israel on several occasions. Your invincible Zionist army is not that invincible after all, is it dear Trumble?

To difficult for you, it seems. Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now? Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!

Get real. Try again.

It's very obvious to me (and hopefully everybody else) that you know next to nothing about the war in Iraq. Let's take it step by step.

First, why did the US invade Iraq and cause unimaginable human suffering? The second question is: why did they decimate the nation's cultural heritage as soon as they invaded the country? I have a lot more important questions, but I'll be happy enough if you could provide answers to the above two questions.

No, 'western governments', not to mention other Arab governments (I know.. 'puppets', blah, blah.. just like Lebanon.. cough..) do not want to 'bomb Libya' at all. They want to stop Gaddafi bombing it. Same question as to Maryan0; is that what you want to happen?

LOL? Do western governments also want to stop Israel's occupation and inhumane treatment (what a massive understatement, shame on me!) and oppression of Palestinian civilians? Why not? I'm eagerly awaiting your (bla bla) response.

 

[LavaDog]

To difficult for you, it seems. Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now? Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!

I guess it depends on how you define wealth, but we let the museum in Iraq get looted and they lost thousands of objects. The Iraqis did fight us a lot more than the media would tell you. We had tons of milita groups fighing us that were not with Taliban or Saddam. The only reason they stopped was we paid them off. In some cases we would literally ride up to a villiage with a suitcase full of money.

 

[yigiter187]

We have seen western democracy and peace in Iraq or in Afghanistan....I hope Libyans wont see the western democracy and peace..Even Gaddafi has a better perceive of democracy...

 

[GuestFellow]

Obama Threatens Military Action if Attacks Resume

^ UPDATE

 

[Maryan0]

Obama Threatens Military Action if Attacks Resume

^ UPDATE

Who'd a thunk it?
Salam

 

[Trumble]

Like they're doing in Libya?

As I said, the UN resolution does not permit the use of ground forces (although I assume the usual special forces will be marking targets for the planes). Such an intervention might prove effective in Libya, but as I said (again) operations in the Ivory Coast would require ground troops.

So aerial bombardment is the better option?

What 'aerial bombardment'?

So the collective guilt and and the utterances of “never again” are keeping western nations from involving themselves in another humanitarian intervention in Africa? Because of “never again” the Ivory Coast is being ignored? I believe it would be the opposite. Your logic is faulty.

My logic is just fine, thanks.. although I am offering opinions, not 'logic' - as are you.

Like I said before the reason why intervention is being called for by the west and their puppets in the east is because Libya is an oil producing nation. The Ivory Coast is being Ignored because they aren’t and are therefore less important.and I exclude Kosovo from the global south because it is not a part of the global south. Both the situations in the Kosovo and Rwanda were situations of ethnic cleansing. That is not so with Libya. There is no genocide of a specific ethnic group going on. Your comparison falls short.

I don't draw the same distinction between reasons for killing people as you do. Specific ethnic group or not, they are just as dead. Your comparison is irrelevant.

And I find it interesting that you would mention Somalia( my homeland) because the failure of the mission in Somalia did not end American intervention in Somali affairs. The Ethiopians who invaded Somalia in 2006 and toppled the Islamic courts which led to the much more extreme Al-shabaab coming into power were directly funded and equipped by the Americans who gave them the go ahead to invade in the first place.

Were they? What equipment was provided? And a link to the text giving the go-ahead?

Not to mention the many Somali’s who were killed and displaced because of such fighting. Do you care at all about that? or did your concern flee for all the Somali's who lost their lives because of American intervention with your short attention span.

My attention span is also fine, thank you. Actually I do. Rather more so than you, seemingly, about those being killed by Gaddafi.

How about you leave Libya to the Libyans.

It's hardly my call, but at least you've finally said what you want. I wonder if they appreciate your point of view in Bengazi.

 

[Maryan0]

As I said, the UN resolution does not permit the use of ground forces (although I assume the usual special forces will be marking targets for the planes). Such an intervention might prove effective in Libya, but as I said (again) operations in the Ivory Coast would require ground troops.



What 'aerial bombardment'?



My logic is just fine, thanks.. although I am offering opinions, not 'logic' - as are you.



I don't draw the same distinction between reasons for killing people as you do. Specific ethnic group or not, they are just as dead. Your comparison is irrelevant.



Were they? What equipment was provided? And a link to the text giving the go-ahead?



My attention span is also fine, thank you. Actually I do. Rather more so than you, seemingly, about those being killed by Gaddafi.



It's hardly my call, but at least you've finally said what you want. I wonder if they appreciate your point of view in Bengazi.

A simple search on Google will give you information on the 2006 invasion of Somalia by American backed Ethiopians. Anyone familiar with the Islamic Courts and the situation in Somalia know this but i'm not surprised you wouldn't know about it since your concern for people's welfare hinges whatever new group your leaders choose to focus on. Do you have anything of relevance to support your argument or are you just going to rely on playing on emotions and weak detractions?
Salam

 

[IslamicRevival]

As much as i dislike what the Libyan government is doing to its own people..i despise the arrogant powers who think they can invade any country they like
I hope every single one of their planes are shot down and destroyed!

 

[Trumble]

No Muslim country on earth does what Israel is doing in Palestine and Lebanon. If you are referring to the U.S. as a more brutal regime than Israel you are absolutely right. No argument there, we are in total agreement about that. Like most westerners you fail to realize that the most "brutal regimes" are those that attack and dominate and oppress other nations and peoples. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Hizbullah has defeated Israel on several occasions. Your invincible Zionist army is not that invincible after all, is it dear Trumble?

Oh dear, so much drivel in one short paragraph.

Like most westerners I 'fail to realize it' because it isn't true. Ever heard of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot? They killed more of their own in a week than the Israelis have killed in total since 1946. Burma? North Korea? Ever heard of them?

Hizbullah has not 'defeated Israel' at all in the sense you are talking about as Israel is still there, as is its regime neither of which Hizbullah ever remotely threatened. They are not my army, and they are not invincible, but if 'regime change' in Israel was quite so easy you don't think somebody might have managed by now?

It's very obvious to me (and hopefully everybody else) that you know next to nothing about the war in Iraq. Let's take it step by step.

First, why did the US invade Iraq and cause unimaginable human suffering? The second question is: why did they decimate the nation's cultural heritage as soon as they invaded the country? I have a lot more important questions, but I'll be happy enough if you could provide answers to the above two questions.

To remove Saddam Hussein and neutralize his weapons of mass destruction. We know now, of course, that there were no weapons of mass destruction. It seems to be you who knows next to nothing about the war.. the vast majority of that human suffering came about after Saddam had been defeated. Of course, there were many incidents by US troops that were criminal and indefensible. I wasn't aware of a policy of 'decimating the nation's cultural heritage' - perhaps you could provide some sources for that claim?

LOL? Do western governments also want to stop Israel's occupation and inhumane treatment (what a massive understatement, shame on me!) and oppression of Palestinian civilians? Why not? I'm eagerly awaiting your (bla bla) response.

I'll ignore your idiotic last remark. Actually, the European governments do . It the US that generally vetoes any action for political reasons.

Again, though.. this issue here is Libya. Not Israel, not Iraq, not the Ivory Coast. I repeat my question.. so you agree with Maryan0 that everyone should just leave Gaddafi to get on with it?

 

[Maryan0]

From this

I don't draw the same distinction between reasons for killing people as you do. Specific ethnic group or not, they are just as dead. Your comparison is irrelevant.

To this:

Like most westerners I 'fail to realize it' because it isn't true. Ever heard of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot? They killed more of their own in a week than the Israelis have killed in total since 1946. Burma? North Korea? Ever heard of them?

Be consistent.
Salam

 

[Trumble]

A simple search on Google will give you information on the 2006 invasion of Somalia by American backed Ethiopians.

Good... then you won't have trouble actually providing sources for your claims that I questioned earlier. I look forward to seeing them.

Be consistent.

Oh, please.. at least try and pay attention? In the second I was responding directly to Argamemnon's claim that

"the most "brutal regimes" are those that attack and dominate and oppress other nations and peoples."

by providing counter examples. That in no way contradicts my previous statement.

 

[Beardo]

US, British, and French have moved into Libya (?)

 

[Maryan0]

Good... then you won't have trouble actually providing sources for your claims that I questioned earlier. I look forward to seeing them.

Look it up.

Oh, please.. at least try and pay attention? In the second I was responding directly to Argamemnon's claim that
by providing counter examples. That in no way contradicts my previous statement.

Yes it does. You were arguing with me about the semantics of ethnic cleansing and what's going on in Libya by saying "they are both dead" and than when Agamemnon calls you out on the hypocrisy of western nations in regards to many Palestinians being killed by the Israelis you compare numbers. The Israelis aren't that bad because Mao and Pol Pot killed more people? I repeat be consistent.

 

[ICYUNVMe]

As much as i dislike what the Libyan government is doing to its own people..i despise the arrogant powers who think they can invade any country they like
I hope every single one of their planes are shot down and destroyed!

Lets look at it from a different perspective: The U.N. is meant to prevent human rights violations. If Gaddafi followed through with a plan to surround Bengazi and kill all of the protesters, that's a significant violation, and it is up to the U.N. to stop such things from happening. The U.N. is not concerned with an individual nation's sovereignty when that is occurring.

Let it also be noted that the rebels were pleading for the "arrogant powers" to establish a no-fly zone for like 2 weeks. And the ensuing celebration in Bengazi that followed the U.N. Security Council vote should tell you what's really going on, and how the important people involved in the struggle really feel.

However, I'm sure that within a month, there will be many people like you calling this an "occupation" and stating that the Americans are only interested in oil, and most likely, those evil, evil Israelis are involved somehow. And there will probably be many Libyans themselves who will claim that "America should mind their own business and leave us alone.", completely omitting the fact that without help from these "arrogant powers", they would all be dead. Its very by-the-book. Apparently, something in the Arab world prevents the creation of long-term memory.

 

[Al-Indunisiy]

Good... then you won't have trouble actually providing sources for your claims that I questioned earlier. I look forward to seeing them.




Oh, please.. at least try and pay attention? In the second I was responding directly to Argamemnon's claim that



by providing counter examples. That in no way contradicts my previous statement.

I'll just do you a favor and search some for you:

http://www.newsdire.com/news/507-invasion-of-ethiopian-forces-in-2006-in-somalia-was-a-mistake.html

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/12/wikileaked-cable-confirms-u-s-secret-somalia-op/

www.academicjournals.org/ajpsir/PDF/pdf2010/February/Bamfo.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/somalia.htm

 

[Argamemnon]

........

American terror is overthrowing all around the world dozens of democratically elected governments, supporting military juntas or dictators in their place, arming their security forces and organising & training them in 'counter-insurgency' (terrorism the US carries out), conducting proxy-wars through them, and so on and so forth. How many people do you think died as a consequence of all these barbaric policies for a near CENTURY? Have you ever thought about that? Soviet Union doesn't even rate next to those actions, it was a dungeon and its crimes were mostly internal.

 

[Argamemnon]

If you as an individual care about the Libyans that’s fine

I don't think they do. Western "civilization" is based on genocides and exploitation and plundering of other nations and peoples. You can't take these folks seriously when they are ranting about human rights, freedom of religion, women's rights and so on. They only care about their own rights. They think they own the world (and everything on it) and anyone who refuses to follow their orders is considered an enemy that must be destroyed.

but I don’t see why you and some others on this forums continue to try sell us the idea that your governments are not in it for the their own interests when almost every intervention in the past proves they have been.
Salam

They might be ignorant because they are brainwashed by their corporate media (I personally think this is one of the main reasons). Or they are simply dishonest and know very well what their governments are doing and support those brutal policies. Especially Americans seem to be obsessed with wars and bloodshed, they can't seem to get enough of it. Unsurprisingly, American gamers are obsessed with "war games" as well. I don't have a particularly favorable opinion of American people (to be honest of westerners in general).

 

[LavaDog]

Let it also be noted that the rebels were pleading for the "arrogant powers" to establish a no-fly zone for like 2 weeks. And the ensuing celebration in Bengazi that followed the U.N. Security Council vote should tell you what's really going on, and how the important people involved in the struggle really feel.

Of course the rebels wanted the powers to step in, the rebels were created by the united states and western europe. The leaders of the rebels are doing the same thing they did in Egypt, they take anger that was already there and use it for the benefit of the western powers. And the evil Israelis acted as middle men to smuggle in weapons for them. This seems like it will go down like Yugoslavia.

 

[titus]

Of course the rebels wanted the powers to step in, the rebels were created by the united states and western europe.

I just love conspiracy theories.

So the truth is that the Libyans were happy as clams under Qadafi, but the US and Europe tricked them into thinking they were unhappy (with Israel as a middle man, of course).

. The leaders of the rebels are doing the same thing they did in Egypt, they take anger that was already there and use it for the benefit of the western powers.

But I thought the US was propping up the dictatorship in Egypt for it's own evil purposes? Now I am being told they removed him for their own evil purposes?

These conspiracy theories confuse me because they seem contradictory. At least I know that the West are the bad guys, no matter what happens, because they are secretly manipulating everything to their own evil and selfish ends.

They might be ignorant because they are brainwashed by their corporate media (I personally think this is one of the main reasons).

If you want to believe that the West are all brainwashed minions of corporations then so be it, but what do the Arab governments think of the intelligence of their citizens when they feel they can blame all of their nations internal problems on external sources (Al Qaeda drug users anyone?). Sadly it is true, a huge number of them do fall for it. They are brainwashed into believing that everything bad in their world is because of the West, and then when people question that and try to stand up for themselves they are shot and called foreign agents.

And then other people see Egyptians, Tunisians and Libyans fighting against their oppressors and all they can do muster is a knee jerk reaction to rail against the West instead of supporting those people.