Life on earth as a test

[KAding]

Hey everyone,

I'm slowly starting to understand many of the ideas and arguments behind Islam and other religions. Yet, there is something that still baffles me about the Abrahamic religions.

If God is omnipotent and is our Creator, why do we need to be tested? I mean, if I would build a car and I would be 100% sure my design would be perfect and the manufacturing process would be faultless, I wouldn't bother test driving it, right?

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just wondering how the Abrahamic religions explain this. I'm guessing it has something to do with free will?

Thanks .

KAding

 

[Keltoi]

Sin is a test I suppose. All three faiths believe mankind is meant to follow a certain path. Free-will decides whether you take the correct path or follow the wrong path into Hell. I suppose that would be the simplest way to put it.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I think that are two questions in one and I 'm not certain about the answer of either one and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

First question: why does Allah subhana wa ta'al test us if he is already omniscient?
But if Allah subhana wa ta'ala would create us, and then throw some of us in hell and some of us in heaven, without even giving us a chance, wouldn't that be unfair? Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows how we will do in this test, but that doesn't

Second question: Why couldn't Allah subhana wa ta'ala just create only good people?

Well let me quote the Qur'an:
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
"But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein." (Qur'an al-baqara 2:30-39)

The answer is in there, but I'll let you puzzle it together by yourself for now, don't be afraid to ask for further explanation though

 

[islamirama]

Allah called all the angels together and told them He is going to make Man and put on him on earth as His representative. The angels said this creature will create many mischiefs and Allah said you do not know what I know.

Allah made us with free will. There is predestination involved us well and some get confused, but you have free will in your choices and where you end up depends on what your hands earned.

Allah is very Merciful and Forgiving, He loves for you to repent and return to Him when you sin. He said if there was someone who did not create sin then He would unmake him and make him again so he would sin but then repent. By returning to Allah and repenting, we are showing our need for our Creator and how He is the Master of all.

You gave the analogy of a car and its designer. How about this one instead. Would have a monotonous robot without any faults a human as your child, life partner, traveling companion (co-pilot) or just your students (as a teacher)? . Allah already has creatures (angels) who do not disobey nor sin and do as they are told. He created us bit different just becuase He wanted to, and only He knows His reasons and plans for everything.

hope that helps...

 

[wilberhum]

KAding,
Are you married? Have children?

Don’t you show them how much you love them by forcing great suffering on them?
Don’t you demand that they go through rituals to even speak to you?
When they disobey you don’t you torture them for eternity?
Don’t you expect them to kill people that insult you?

Isn’t that the way your parents treated you?

I simply cannot understand why you are baffled. :skeleton:

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


Yes, we have freedom of choice in what we wish to do. I.e. we can go down the good path, or down the evil path.


This is explained in the Qur'an when Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

By the night when it covers
And [by] the day when it appears
And [by] He who created the male and female,

​

Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse (different in aims and purposes);

As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah and fears Him,
And believes in the best [reward],
We will make smooth for him the path of ease (goodness).

But he who is greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient.
And denies the best [reward],
We will make smooth for him the path for evil;


And what will his wealth benefit him when he goes down (in destruction).

Truly! Ours it is (to give) guidance,

And truly, unto Us (belong) the last (Hereafter) and the first (this world).

Therefore I have warned you of a Fire blazing fiercely (Hell);
None shall enter it save the most wretched,
Who denies and turns away.


But the righteous one will avoid it -
[He] who gives [from] his wealth to purify himself

And not [giving] for anyone who has [done him] a favor to be rewarded

But only seeking the countenance of his Lord, Most High.

He surely will be pleased (when he will enter Paradise).


[Qur'an Surah Layl (the Night) 92]


​

God is the All Knowing, but that doesn't mean that we know our future. Therefore we continue to strive to do good in order to gain God's Pleasure, and His reward. And we abstain from His prohibitions, since they are harmful for us anyway, and that will cause His displeasure.


Also, some may question why God tests us in this life if He knows the answers already. The simple answer is that if God rewarded us, or punished us without us having them deeds and actions infront of our own eyes to bear witness to or against - then we would be confused, maybe feel as if this is injustice. Therefore our own lives will be proof for us, or against us. We pray to Allaah that we are of the successful.



Some relevant verses:

Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-

He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-

[Qur'an 67: 1-2]



“Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial, and to Us is your return.” [Sûrah al-Anbiyâ’: 35]


Allah says: “But he who turns away from remembrance of Me, his will be a narrow life, and I shall bring him blind to the assembly on the Day of Resurrection.”

[Sûrah TâHâ: 124]

​

Allah says: ​

“Whosoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, we shall make them live a good life, and We shall pay them a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do.”​

[Qur'an Sûrah al-Nahl: 97]


​

Peace.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

KAding,
Are you married? Have children?

Don’t you show them how much you love them by forcing great suffering on them?
Don’t you demand that they go through rituals to even speak to you?
When they disobey you don’t you torture them for eternity?
Don’t you expect them to kill people that insult you?

Isn’t that the way your parents treated you?

I simply cannot understand why you are baffled. :skeleton:

How do you expect things to make sense when you compare God with a parent? That analogy is definitely false.

 

[wilberhum]

How do you expect things to make sense when you compare God with a parent? That analogy is definitely false.

No one ever loved me as much as my mother. I guess you can't see that. I feel sad for you.

If god loved me as much as my mom I would get a swift spanking not eternal torture.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

No one ever loved me as much as my mother. I guess you can't see that. I feel sad for you.

If god loved me as much as my mom I would get a swift spanking not eternal torture.

You are mistaken.

"You desire the attractions of this world, but Allah desires the next world for you"
Qur’an 8: 67

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Nope, God doesnt love us, He just provides for us every minute of our life. He provides for our parents so they can provide for us.

Don't feel sad for us, we're quite content thank you very much. We don't ask of your pity.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The question underscores the fundamental conflict between free will and a creator god who is all knowing.

First there is the quandry of if he already knows what you are going to do, then some would argue your path is fixed, and you have only an illusion of free will.

Then there is this further dilema. If God created us and knew we would take the wrong path while creating us, many would argue he/she/it/they purposefully put us down that path. Why create us knowing we would be doomed to hellfire? He could simply look ahead and see who would follow the wrong path and never create them to begin with.

Difficult problems I don't think many believers notice. Some do. More do not.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Sis Jazzy was just joking ^ Allaah does love the believers, and the doers of good.

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/44714-allah-loves.html

The question underscores the fundamental conflict between free will and a creator god who is all knowing.

First there is the quandry of if he already knows what you are going to do, then some would argue your path is fixed, and you have only an illusion of free will.

Allaah knows what we would do, even if we never did it. Yet we choose the path to good, or path of evil. Out of our freedom of choice.

Then there is this further dilema. If God created us and knew we would take the wrong path while creating us, many would argue he/she/it/they purposefully put us down that path. Why create us knowing we would be doomed to hellfire? He could simply look ahead and see who would follow the wrong path and never create them to begin with.

Then Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).


​

So again, it's upto you - you take that step towards Allaah, and He will come to you at speed.

Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

[Authentic - Al Bukhari]


​

If you don't take that step forward, then you do so for your own loss. Yet if you come closer to Allaah, He has a great reward in store for those who believe and do good works.


If one argues why God created people who will choose to do evil in their life, the basic answer is - if there wasn't evil in this life, then what would those who choose to do good strive for? This whole life is a test, and one of the greatest trials is to choose the good path over the evil, yet even if we do trip or fall into sin, then we repent, learn from our mistake, get back up, and continue striving to do good until we reach our final destination towards Allaah.

Why should Allâh punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him. And Allâh is Ever All*Appreciative (of good), All*Knowing.

[Qur'an 4: 147]




​

Peace.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Why create us knowing we would be doomed to hellfire?

In truth none of us can really say what God would do in such an instance. Every one who has an opinion about God could be called a theologian; but it has been said that theologians reveal very little about God; rather they reveal more of what is in their own heart.

I believe that God is just merciful and loving in a greater way than a parent who loves their child. But I struggle to understand how God after applying all these qualities would deal with Hitler after death. After all Hitler was a child of God too.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God;

Eric

 

[- Qatada -]

Eric, we aren't God's children since He is way above that. Alot of philosophers have even argued, that if one was to be a child of God, then why would He punish those who disbelieve and rebellious forever?


Similarly, Allaah Himself says in the Qur'an:

(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins?

Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

[Qur'an 5: 18]​

We obey God and His Messenger, we strive to do good. Allaah says:

Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they.

[Qur'an 32: 18]


​

Peace.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yes I was joking. I was being sarcastic...

 

[Umar001]

If God is omnipotent and is our Creator, why do we need to be tested? I mean, if I would build a car and I would be 100% sure my design would be perfect and the manufacturing process would be faultless, I wouldn't bother test driving it, right?

What you speak of is a Car which would run perfectly, without its own free choice(will), so that canot be equated with mankind which do have free choice. Furthermore I don't know if it was your intention to strike a simlitude between you testing the car and God testing mankind, but you testing the car would be for you to find out if the car had any problems, where as God testing mankind would not be for God to find out if mankind had problems, since this according to Islam was already known to God.

In my view this would do more justice, if you built a car with free choice, and then without your knowledge you knew that the Car would turn left instead of doing its command of turning right and you said 'Right car I will bulldoze you since you will disobey me' then the car said, 'what? I never disobeyed you'. Where as if you, having your knowledge, took the car for the test in order to show the car that it's own choices, then the car will not be able to claim innocency. So the test drive is not for the driver's knowing but the car's knowing.

Eesa

 

[KAding]

I think that are two questions in one and I 'm not certain about the answer of either one and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

First question: why does Allah subhana wa ta'al test us if he is already omniscient?
But if Allah subhana wa ta'ala would create us, and then throw some of us in hell and some of us in heaven, without even giving us a chance, wouldn't that be unfair? Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows how we will do in this test, but that doesn't

Thanks for the answer. I won't go into your second answer, I understand how this might be related to the problem of evil, but this seems a problem in itself? Btw, is that last sentence unfinished? Why doesn't it matter that He knows how we'll do in the test?

If he knows how we'll do in the test and he created us, whats the point of testing? I still don't understand. Why create a person who He'll know will fail in the first place? Or is it possible to 'surprise' God, thanks to the free will he gave us? But in that case He would not know beforehand how we'd perform, right? It's all a bit confusing, but I suppose it's probably a mistake to try and apply logic on God.

Maybe I should take a step back. Why did God create humans in the first place? What is our purpose? Does the Qu'ran explain that? Maybe that sheds some light on this as well?

Thanks .

 

[KAding]

What you speak of is a Car which would run perfectly, without its own free choice(will), so that canot be equated with mankind which do have free choice. Furthermore I don't know if it was your intention to strike a simlitude between you testing the car and God testing mankind, but you testing the car would be for you to find out if the car had any problems, where as God testing mankind would not be for God to find out if mankind had problems, since this according to Islam was already known to God.

In my view this would do more justice, if you built a car with free choice, and then without your knowledge you knew that the Car would turn left instead of doing its command of turning right and you said 'Right car I will bulldoze you since you will disobey me' then the car said, 'what? I never disobeyed you'. Where as if you, having your knowledge, took the car for the test in order to show the car that it's own choices, then the car will not be able to claim innocency. So the test drive is not for the driver's knowing but the car's knowing.

Eesa

Very good point. The analogy was indeed flawed I suppose. So the test is not for God but for ourselves.

 

[- Qatada -]

If he knows how we'll do in the test and he created us, whats the point of testing? I still don't understand. Why create a person who He'll know will fail in the first place? Or is it possible to 'surprise' God, thanks to the free will he gave us? But in that case He would not know beforehand how we'd perform, right? It's all a bit confusing, but I suppose it's probably a mistake to try and apply logic on God.

Like brother Habeshi explained, it's a test for us (and we don't know the results), the test is not for Allaah.

Maybe I should take a step back. Why did God create humans in the first place? What is our purpose? Does the Qu'ran explain that? Maybe that sheds some light on this as well?

Thanks .

Allaah says in His final revelation (translation of the meaning of):

And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. [Qur'an 51: 56]


​

We as Muslims believe that this life is temporary, we are created by Allaah, and yes - we are created to worship Him. But wait, worship doesn't just mean to continuously pray, fast, etc. Worship in the Islamic context is anything which is loved by Allaah. So for example, if a guy gives food to his wife, he is fulfilling a duty which is loved by Allaah. Since you intended to draw closer to Allaah by feeding your wife, then that is an act of worship in of itself. Therefore, you would gain Allaah's pleasure, therefore be rewarded by Him inshaa Allaah (God willing.)

Similarly, all aspects of our life can be a means of drawing closer to our Creator, and Sustainer.


Along with these acts of worship, we are also obligated to thank Allaah for the good which He has bestowed upon us. We are obligated to worship Allaah (which includes the 5 daily prayers) - so that we remain firm upon the correct path. During each prayer, we recite to Allaah - "Guide us to the Straight Path.." - if one stops praying to Allaah, they usually break their contact with Him due to the excessive distractions of this life. Therefore an obligation makes the believer firm upon keeping their duty to Allaah so they remain upon the correct straight path which leads to Him (The Siraat Al Mustaqeem.)

Therefore, if one asks why Allaah asks us to worship Him - the answer is so we remain aware of God, so we continue doing good to please Him and earn His pleasure, so we abstain from the evil which He has forbidden us from - which is harm in of itself, and that is why it is forbidden.


Those who abstain from evil and do good to please God draw closer to Him, and due to that - there reward is with Him. Whereas those who do evil harm their own selves, while they percieve it not, and distance themselves away from Allaah, their Creator and Provider, and His reward. Yet still, Allaah is willing to forgive them if they repent to Him sincerely, however once death overtakes a person - then that is the end, and it is too late to turn back after that. Since this life is the test, and the Day of Judgement is the Day of Recompense, and the Paradise is for the believers and doers of good, and the Hellfire is the abode for those who disbelieve and are ungrateful to Allaah.



And Allaah knows best.





Peace.

 

[Malaikah]

If god loved me as much as my mom I would get a swift spanking not eternal torture.

If a person were to spend eternity in the Hell fire, then God certainly does not love them.

Islam is not like Christianity, we do not believe that God loves all human beings, regardless of how evil they might be.