Life on earth as a test

[Trumble]

You know what, maybe He planned to spare the cruel life on earth and send them up to Paradise instead in an instant?

First question. If life on earth can be 'cruel' (which it undoubtably can) why would an omnipotent and benevolent God create it that way?

Second question: If He plans to spare such people from the cruel life on earth for which He alone is directly responsible, then why not by-pass earth all together and just have them pop up in Paradise?

Third question: As God is omniscient he must know who goes to hell and who goes to Paradise before they are even created. So why bother with the whole earth thing at all? Why not just send folks straight to where they are going to end up? Surely that would have a major plus in that, as those going hell will not actually commit the wrongs they must inevitably be judged on, which seems more than a tad unfair, a benevolent God could use the opportunity to show some benevolence and not create them in the first place, and hence not create hell in the first place, it being unnecessary.

Fourth question. Why, therefore, would a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God not just create Paradise and populate it directly with nice people? Why bother with the rest at all? The only logically coherent possibility I can see is divine 'entertainment' which is not only ludicrous for the reasons I have described earlier but which Qatata has kindly shown is ruled out by the Qur'an.

 

[- Qatada -]

First question. If life on earth can be 'cruel' (which it undoubtably can) why would an omnipotent and benevolent God create it that way?

The life in this world is a trial, the hardships people face in this life can either 1) Draw them closer to Allaah so they realise their weakness and dependance upon Allaah. or 2) They will turn away and become more arrogant while remaining in a state of weakness.

The trials one faces in life can make them become more patient, more stronger, and a greater person in Allaah's sight. Or they can make the person even more ungrateful, rebellious against Allaah, and this person may despair of Allaah's Mercy, and none does this except the disbelievers.


Allaah says (translation of the meaning):

Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?

We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.

Do those who practise evil think that they will get the better of Us? Evil is their judgment!

For those whose hopes are in the meeting with Allah (in the Hereafter, let them strive); for the term (appointed) by Allah is surely coming and He hears and knows (all things).

And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation.

Those who believe and work righteous deeds,- from them shall We blot out all evil (that may be) in them, and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds.


[Qur'an 29: 2-7]



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[- Qatada -]

Second question: If He plans to spare such people from the cruel life on earth for which He alone is directly responsible, then why not by-pass earth all together and just have them pop up in Paradise?

As we've explained earlier in the thread (tut tut, you should have been paying attention) - if people were placed into the hellfire or paradise without experiencing this life and their own deeds, then man would feel as if this is injustice. Yet if man is witness to his/her own actions and choices, then they have no-one except themselves to blame.

Third question: As God is omniscient he must know who goes to hell and who goes to Paradise before they are even created. So why bother with the whole earth thing at all? Why not just send folks straight to where they are going to end up?

Explained above.

Surely that would have a major plus in that, as those going hell will not actually commit the wrongs they must inevitably be judged on, which seems more than a tad unfair, a benevolent God could use the opportunity to show some benevolence and not create them in the first place, and hence not create hell in the first place, it being unnecessary.

This again, comes back to the concept of this life and it being a test.


Since people have freedom of choice, then those who do choose the good path over the evil, then they will be rewarded for that, and those who do evil - what other reward should they be for them except a recompense for their own evils?


Allaah says in the Qur'an (translation of the meaning):

Is there any Reward for Good - other than Good?

[Qur'an 55: 60]


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And He also says (translation of the meaning):

Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?

What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge?


[Qur'an 68: 35-6]
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Fourth question. Why, therefore, would a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God not just create Paradise and populate it directly with nice people? Why bother with the rest at all? The only logically coherent possibility I can see is divine 'entertainment' which is not only ludicrous for the reasons I have described earlier but which Qatata has kindly shown is ruled out by the Qur'an.

As stated before, the test is for us - not Allaah. We do not know what Allaah knows, therefore we strive to be the people of Paradise. And we avoid evil so we do not become the people of the Fire. We have this freedom of choice to do good or evil, yet if we believe in Allaah and His promise, and do good - then why shouldn't we be rewarded for it by Him?

Why should Allâh punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him. And Allâh is Ever All*Appreciative (of good), All*Knowing.

[Qur'an 4: 147]​

 

[- Qatada -]

So its a good thing for people to get killed, because it spares them time on this horrible earth and takes them to the next life? Scary line of thought that is.

Allaah has appointed death for us all at a certain time period, we can't avoid that by an instant.

And it is not [possible] for one to die except by permission of Allah at a decree determined. And whoever desires the reward of this world - We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter - We will give him thereof. And we will reward the grateful.

(Qur'an 3:145)


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People die in different ways, some people may face a calamity before their death. This may be a form of forgiveness for them, since the trials we face in this life can be either for us or against us. This depends on the person, if they remain patient and place their trust in Allaah - they gain Allaah's pleasure, because the person is aware that Allaah is the Wise, All Knowing.

We as simple humans are limited to the present only, therefore we place our trust in Allaah, knowing the wisdom behind the situations we face in life, and the ease which Allaah brings through it.

So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief:

Verily, with every difficulty there is relief.

[Qur'an 94: 5-6]



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Therefore when someone dies in a disaster, then it may have been a punishment from Allaah. Or it may have been a wake up call for other people throughout the world to realise how weak and helpless they are. And that this disaster isn't just by nature, but rather by the wisdom of the All Knowing, All Wise.


So even if muslims are punished for their sins, it may be that this is an expiation for their sins in regard to the afterlife. Or it may also be a wake up call for others who have never really thought about death as often.


For instance, the trials we as muslims are facing in this world are huge. And the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) spoke the truth when he said (translation of the meaning):


“This community of mine is a community blessed with mercy. It is not punished in the Hereafter. Instead, it is punished in this world with strife, instability, and bloodshed.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Mustadrak al-Hâkim] It is an authentic hadîth. It indicates that Allah has shown mercy on the Islamic community and that its punishment will be in this world instead of the Hereafter.



It may be that those who disbelieve don't face as much trials in this life, yet their punishment may be in the hereafter for their wrongdoings and ungratefulness.


And for the believer, no matter how much hardships or moments of ease he /she faces in life, it is always a form of goodness for them;


The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

How wonderful is the situation of the believer, for all his affairs are good. If something good happens to him, he gives thanks for it and that is good for him; if something bad happens to him, he bears it with patience, and that is good for him. This does not apply to anyone but the believer.” Narrated by Muslim (2999).


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And he also (peace be upon him) said (translation of the meaning):

No fatigue, nor disease, nor anxiety, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).



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And Allaah is the source of strength.




Peace.

 

[Trumble]

if people were placed into the hellfire or paradise without experiencing this life and their own deeds, then man would feel as if this is injustice. Yet if man is witness to his/her own actions and choices, then they have no-one except themselves to blame.

I think we can safely assume that anyone placed in Paradise is unlikely to be unduly worried about any injustice, so them we can safely ignore.

Let me try again. That just leaves us with those doomed to hellfire, yes? I take it that you would not dispute that an omniscient God must be aware of who those people will be before they are even born? To me the idea of free-will is completely incompatible with that set-up, but I'll accept that the case is open - far wiser people than us have been debating it for centuries and still reached no satisfactory conclusion. However, illusion of free-will or not, your argument leads to only one possible conclusion; that the sole purpose of man's life on earth is so that those who end up in hell will know why they are there. I don't know about you, but that's the sort of world-view that would drive me to the valium.

Allaah has appointed death for us all at a certain time period, we can't avoid that by an instant.

So much for free will.....

 

[- Qatada -]

I think we can safely assume that anyone placed in Paradise is unlikely to be unduly worried about any injustice, so them we can safely ignore.

Okay.

Let me try again. That just leaves us with those doomed to hellfire, yes? I take it that you would not dispute that an omniscient God must be aware of who those people will be before they are even born? To me the idea of free-will is completely incompatible with that set-up, but I'll accept that the case is open - far wiser people than us have been debating it for centuries and still reached no satisfactory conclusion. However, illusion of free-will or not, your argument leads to only one possible conclusion; that the sole purpose of man's life on earth is so that those who end up in hell will know why they are there. I don't know about you, but that's the sort of world-view that would drive me to the valium.

That's twisting up the facts, Allaah knows what we do, and He would know what we do even if we never did it.

Allaah has allowed us to have the freedom of choice, and He has promised to guide us if we are truth seekers and sincere.


Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).


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A Scandinavian man prayed to God; "God, guide me if you exist" - And Allaah kept His promise by guiding him to Islaam.

So even if this brother wasn't sure of whether God existed, he still went ahead with the prayer, so Allaah did guide him since he was sincere and willing to find the truth.

From time to time I would retreat to my room sitting there quietly in a cross-legged position, praying and seeking His guidance. I was afraid of asking anybody for guidance because I knew that the world is full of crooks and conmen who could easily take me for a ride, green as I knew that I was. Therefore I just kept asking God. I would talk to God and say, "If You are there, You can hear me. If You are there, You can see me. If You are there, You know my needs. I am blind, deaf, and dumb and I don't know what is good for me, and what is not. Give me a way. Open a door for me. Give me guidance!" To my friends I would often speak about God and the eternal principle of God.

More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/17465-god-guide-me-if-you-exist.html



If someone isn't sincere, and they purposely turn away from Allaah's signs. Then this person has chosen a path of disbelief purposelly over belief, since this person never knew whether he/she would be a person of Paradise or Hellfire. The opportunities were open for him/her - did they take advantage of them? Or did they just sulk like a child and say that it's over already? How do they know what's lying ahead for them? So why should they argue over something which - if they were to be sincere and truthful, would lead them towards Allaah's Mercy and Paradise?

So much for free will.....

Nowhere have i ever said we have free will, i stated we have freedom of choice. Yet death is a factor which none of us can avoid.




Peace.

 

[Trumble]

That's twisting up the facts, Allaah knows what we do, and He would know what we do even if we never did it.

It's not twisting up anything, I think it is the only logical consequence of what you have claimed. If you think differently, feel free to produce an alternative. No offence, but "He would know what we do even if we never did it" simply doesn't make sense.

Nowhere have i ever said we have free will, i stated we have freedom of choice.

Could you clearly set out what you believe to be the difference, please? How can we have freedom of choice without free will?

 

[- Qatada -]

It's not twisting up anything, I think it is the only logical consequence of what you have claimed. If you think differently, feel free to produce an alternative. No offence, but "He would know what we do even if we never did it" simply doesn't make sense.

I've explained the issue in the above post. If you want to be guided, ask God to guide you (if you're in doubt, then ask Him "Guide me to the truth if You exist"), and He will do so if you are sincere and truthful.

Could you clearly set out what you believe to be the difference, please? How can we have freedom of choice without free will?

Freedom of choice means that we have the choice of doing good, or doing evil. Yet it doesn't necessarily mean we have control over all the situations which occur in our life i.e. what family we are born into etc.




Regards.

 

[Trumble]

Yet it doesn't necessarily mean we have control over all the situations which occur in our life i.e. what family we are born into etc.

Neither does free will.

 

[- Qatada -]

Alright then, kool.

 

[MustafaMc]

We Muslims believe that Allah created mankind to worship Him of their own accord - to choose to worship Him in the manner that He wishes for them to. Allah's reasoning is beyond our understanding. We believe that Allah created us and He has promised to reward those who believe in Him and do good works and He has promised to punish those who disbelieve in Him, ascribe partners to Him and those believers whose bad deeds outweigh their good deeds.

All of life is a test for us - the good of it and the bad of it. It is easy to see how suffering from a calamity such as an earthquake, a tsunami, a hurricane/cyclone, flood, drought, etc is a test of our patience and perserverance to believe in Allah despite the bad that happens. What about the good that happens such as having a good job and earning money beyond what one needs, having food to eat and never having to worry about the next meal. Are we thankful or not? Do we help those less fortunate or not?

... and Allah knows best.