Living in Non-Muslim lands: What's the excuse?

[Woodrow]

Some of the most Pious Muslims and living very Islamic lives are here in the USA. The Islamic community in Austin for one comes to mind immediately. Many scholars from Pakistan and Saudi have moved to Austin, because they have found the areas to be very Islamic.
Austin now has Islamic schools, many Masjids, (for the size of the population) The University of Texas at Austin has an Excellent Islamic College and is even training Imams from Saudi, Pakistan and elsewhere in the Mid-East There are plans to had a department of Islamic Jurisprudence. There are even Islamic Book stores and Markets. It is not the ideal Muslim land, but outside of Makkah, Medina and Fez, it is the most Islamic city I have ever been in although the population is only about 15% Muslim. Several of the Subsections (Apartment Complexes) are 100% Muslim.

I still have to visit Dearborn, Michigan. It is the US city with the largest percentage of Muslims. The City Council now has a majority Muslim
membership and the new city laws are Sharia. The City broadcasts the Athan 5 times daily, city wide. Islam is the largest single religion in Dearborn.

 

[Malaikah]

I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...

Says who? I live in the West and can practise Islam just fine, alhamdulilah.

I mean, at least where I live Muslim girls can wear hijabs in public schools, unlike Turkey which has an almost 100% Muslim population!

 

[wth1257]

I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....

Don't you need to provide a Hadith or Qur'an verse to support your claim?

 

[Woodrow]

I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....

What about Spain? Spain has a very large Muslim population, especially in Southern Spain. While Spain is considered a secular Nation and most spaniards are Roman Catholic, it seem that Muslims have full rights to practice Islam without interference, at least in Southern Spain. In my opinion southern Spain is much more Islamic than much of Morocco.

State and Church

In Spain, although special treatment of any religious organization is considered illegal, the state does have agreements with the Vatican that give the Catholic Church unique rights. Some, but not all, have been extended to Islam and other faiths, although these religions do not receive state funding through the tax system. Despite the legal status of Islam, recognized in 1992, there have been difficulties with getting the state to follow through on its policy.1 Muslims have had some difficulties with establishing chaplains in prisons and the military (US State Dept., 2004). More recently, however, the Socialist government has made moves to downgrade the special status of Catholicism and introduced the study of Islam to school curricula.2

The 1978 Spanish constitution formerly declares Spain to be a secular state with no state religion. However, it does allow the state to enter into agreements with religious bodies to aid in ensuring rights and privileges. In 1992 the government of Spain entered into such an agreement with the Islamic Commission of Spain. The agreement, in part, deals with "the status of Islamic Religious Leaders and Imams, determining the specific rights deriving from the practise of their religious office, their personal status in areas of such importance as Social Security and ways of complying with their military duties, legal protection for their mosques, civil validity of marriage ceremonies held pursuant to Muslim rites, religious services in public centres or establishments, Muslim religious education in schools, the tax benefits applicable to certain property pertaining to the Federations that constitute the Islamic Commission of Spain, commemoration of Muslim religious holidays and finally, co-operation between the State and such Commission for the conservation and furthering of Islamic Historic and Artistic Heritage." [material taken from the official translation provided by Spain's Ministry of Justice regarding Law 26 of 10 November 1992.]

Some of the practical implications of this accord have been in the workplace. Workers are allowed time off for prayers, and to take off an hour early from work during Ramadan. There is some speculation that while the accord may have been legally beneficial, it is providing a means for discrimination in the work place as employers can argue that certain positions cannot be filled by those who take the time off from work.

Source: http://www.arabia.pl/english/content/view/21/16/

 

[KelleyD]

Well, speaking as an American female who reverted to Islam, I traveled to Egypt after converting in hopes of being able to stay. Every three months I had to leave and come back in again as a tourist. I made friends with the locals and passed around my resume in hopes of gaining employment working in a hotel, travel agency or as a guide. That was somewhat futile. I investigated going to TEFAL (teaching English as a foreign language) school but it was $3,000 pounds with no guarentee of employment afterwards. In the meantime, my visa kept running out....and so did my money.

I looked into Saudi Arabia. They don't even allow females into that country. Tunisia, Morroco...etc....all the same. The only means for a female to actually be able to live in a Muslim country is to marry a Muslim man. That isn't an overnight process. I tried one of the Muslim single's internet site a few months back and that was a complete disaster. Most of the men who contacted me were only interested in coming over to the United States! Doesn't anyone want to stay in their own country?

So, while your question is a legitimate one, it isn't as simple as just saying now that one has converted, all we need to do is move. First the Muslim countries must be willing to take on the new Muslims. As of today, there is NO Muslim country that will do that. I even looked at England and Canada, since I'd been there on travel quite a bit and they both speak English, but those countries are harder to get into than Saudi Arabia. Plus, they are not really Muslim countries so they don't fall into the category that you are referring to.

I know that Saudi Arabia will allow a foreigner into the country while making Hajj. Why not just change the rule and allow all Muslims in if they have skills and are willing to contribute to society? Believe me, if I could move, I would. Living in America as a Muslim is like living a daily jihad. If only it were as simple as just packing up and moving. I've pretty much concluded that I'm stuck here until the Mahdi returns. imsad

 

[Tariqa]

Says who? I live in the West and can practise Islam just fine, alhamdulilah.

I mean, at least where I live Muslim girls can wear hijabs in public schools, unlike Turkey which has an almost 100% Muslim population!

Again i think you are not understanding what i am saying... You cannot practice your deen to the full extent in a non Muslim land... Hijab is not all of Islam.. What you don't seem to understand is that it is not the parts of Islam you can practice in non Muslim countries but the parts you cannot practice or is very hard to do so... Most people that live in non Muslims lands fail for even being in the country in that is not practicing the deen.. If their is a land that is so corrupt that you are living in sin for just living their then you are not a practicing Muslim if you believe that you can practice your deen committing daily sins... You have more religious freedom in other countries and it would be obligatory to leave, as there is no way in any Muslims right stubborn mind that he or she can say i can practice my deen FULLY in a non Muslim land. that statement is contradictory to itself.. You may be able to hear hijab and make your slat but again there are allot more rules in Islam than just hijab and the 5 pillars, there is many things in the sunnah we are not allowed to do and being in non Muslim countries in the manner that we live today is not acceptable.. If you cannot admit then i would have to get detailed because obviously you must not remember the daily sins people in these lands commit in the majority...




Mister you may not also understand.. You say that there are pious Muslims in Texas?? Why for the sake of Allah would a Muslim leave Saudi to come live in a "Islamic" city in America??? And you say they are pious..???? It wouldn't matter if there was a city that was 100% Muslim, as long as the city is under the democratic, non Muslim, kufr rule then they are living under hypocrisy and disbelief every single day supporting the most evil of regimes...no matter how many prayers they make the, boss is non Muslim, and he s in charge, and the 100% Muslim city's are working for a 100% kufr leader and this is not acceptable in Islam..

What is the excuse that there is no where to go?? Of all states there is no where on the spacious earth to leave to.. ??? So what you plan to just wait until the Mahdi comes??? When will that be?? We do not know so how can anyone just say there is no hope on our parts.. This lazy mentality is the reason Muslims today are behind indeed..They give up and put trust in Allah before even tieing the camel...You cant say theres no real hope you must say that i will continue to struggle even if my money keeps running out... Deal with the hardships of the corrupt Muslim countries because it is easier than living in a non Muslim country the struggles are allot harder... You cannot give up you must continue to strive and find ways to enter these countries..

We cannot even talk about how it will be done because their are too many Muslims around here that think it is OK to live how we are living literally giving weapons to the kufr who will turn it on our families and such things.. which makes us wonder how any Muslim in their right mind will allow these way of life?? We must first all agree the leaving the lands of greater evil is wrong indeed.. If we all stick together we may be able to do this but..many Muslims are too lazy, arrogant, bold to Even admit they are in sin...Its clearly a shame..on the ummah..as well..

 

[_PakistaN_]

Well now days u can actually compare muslim countries to non muslim ones. all these half sleve shirts and skirts that are being worn in muslim countries. it is shame.

 

[BlissfullyJaded]

I think it would be a grave error to doubt somebody's piety because they move to the US for the sake of dawah and helping the Muslim community. One of the most amazing people to come into our life was a Madani sheikh who moved here for several years teaching the youth Quraan. It was a very hard move for him and his wife to make, and I'm sure that is the case with many who move. However, his sincerity can never be doubted and he had a positive impact on many and revived many Sunnahs that were forgotten in the community here.

Before we point fingers at others, labeling them as arrogant and lazy, let us look within ourselves first to see what we are doing for this ummah.

 

[Tariqa]

Every person that comes in here mostly starts off saying the wrong thing... They keep comparing Muslims with non Muslims....

No way are muslims comparable to non muslim...

It doesn't matter how short their skirts are they are not the same because Muslims believe in Allah. This is the most important thing in all life... the key to life....non Muslims do not... Even if these Muslim countries are hypocrites, only Allah knows what is truly in the heart.. As long as the Muslims continue to testify in Allah and his messenger than they are Muslims to our perceptions hence if we compare their evils to the evils of non Muslims it would be like saying they are as low as the kufr, disbelievers, naked and doomed to the fire eternally, which no Muslim can utter, so the next Muslim that comes in here and says that the Muslims are no better than the non Muslims, or they are worst than non Muslims take notice of Allah's wrath upon these so called Muslims who accuse the Muslims of sins lower than a pagan or polytheist..


You may not be understanding....Any Muslim that comes to this country is not automatically deemed ill. There can be ways to give Dawah in many non Muslim countries without Settling i think it is a the mistakes of even many good scholars that come here for the sake of teaching but the forgot that in this time, even something so pure as dawah can be taken in vain and rendered fruitless and nothing more than a waste of time, energy, resources, air, and space.....Something that could be used in these even almost more so desolate Muslim countries where it seems they would need the dawah first and foremost before any other non Muslim.. We have to build our homes first before we can save the world.. How do we expect to save our home lands (Muslim lands) when we give up, say it is too hard there, and leave to a non Muslims country for a better life..?? We must battle ourselves in our homelands until the victory is acheived.....

 

[Thinker]

The proofs? I'm not a scholar, but here is a very summarised version of some of the proofs mentioned by those many scholars who consider it permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands:

1. When the Muslims were persecuted in Makkah, the Prophet phub sent a large number of them to live in Ethiopia, a land ruled by a Christian king.

2. When the Prophet pbuh moved to Madinah and established an actual Islamic state*, he never sent any messengers to tell the Muslim living in Ethiopia to comeback to Madinah, even though it was safe for them to come back.

What does that tell us? That it is permissible to live in the lands of non-Muslims, even if there is an Islamic state.

Hmmm I think that’s a bit of a stretch . . .

Is that how you interpret it or could it be that Muslims are allowed to leave Muslims countries to live in non Muslim countries only when they are being persecuted.

AND

Is not commanding them to come back the same as condoning them not returning i.e. did they ask if it was OK for them to stay there and get the reply that it was OK?

 

[Tariqa]

Hmmm I think that’s a bit of a stretch . . .

Is that how you interpret it or could it be that Muslims are allowed to leave Muslims countries to live in non Muslim countries only when they are being persecuted.

AND

Is not commanding them to come back the same as condoning them not returning i.e. did they ask if it was OK for them to stay there and get the reply that it was OK?

Your missing the point. This hadith does not justify what the Muslims are doing today... Back in that time Islam was in the beginning stages.. There was not many Muslim countries as there are today.. that is why they were being perscuted... After the end of the messenger ship everything was to be now in order and jihad was to be obligatory upon the Muslims.. It is a shame on the Muslims that they have not keep up the traditions and commands of the sunnah indeed...

It is a different time.. We can not use things that were done in the time of Medina because they were going through beginning States.. They went through all of that so that our generations wouldn't have to go through the same things they have went through.. Its a shame that Muslims chooses to leave their lands and make it hard on themselves causing the ummah to separate, the same thing the Islamic predecessors were fighting against so that we today would stick together.. Now today people are taking the easy way out, leaving the ummah well it self destroys it self to give dawah to people who will not help much of the situation to begin with??
Our dawah and jihad is at home first... We must stay as soldiers and protect our homelands.. though the Muslims know not what is best for them.. We cannot just say "oh the Muslim countries are all corrupt so lets move to an even worst non Muslim society and leave the ignorant Muslims in sin.. We must stay and fight against our Muslim brothers before some non Muslim such as Bush comes in our Muslims states and sets up regimes like democraocy...

 

[Thinker]

Your missing the point. This hadith does not justify what the Muslims are doing today... Back in that time Islam was in the beginning stages.. There was not many Muslim countries as there are today.. that is why they were being perscuted... After the end of the messenger ship everything was to be now in order and jihad was to be obligatory upon the Muslims.. It is a shame on the Muslims that they have not keep up the traditions and commands of the sunnah indeed...

It is a different time.. We can not use things that were done in the time of Medina because they were going through beginning States.. They went through all of that so that our generations wouldn't have to go through the same things they have went through.. Its a shame that Muslims chooses to leave their lands and make it hard on themselves causing the ummah to separate, the same thing the Islamic predecessors were fighting against so that we today would stick together.. Now today people are taking the easy way out, leaving the ummah well it self destroys it self to give dawah to people who will not help much of the situation to begin with??
Our dawah and jihad is at home first... We must stay as soldiers and protect our homelands.. though the Muslims know not what is best for them.. We cannot just say "oh the Muslim countries are all corrupt so lets move to an even worst non Muslim society and leave the ignorant Muslims in sin.. We must stay and fight against our Muslim brothers before some non Muslim such as Bush comes in our Muslims states and sets up regimes like democraocy...

There was a programme on TV in the UK some months back - 'Under Cover Mosques' where two women preachers from Saudi were saying the same thing as Tariq - I think she denounced Muslims who chose to live in non Muslim countries as hypocrites. (I'm sure most of the members here will remember that but I mention it as Tariq may not have seen the programme)

 

[themuffinman]

what you have to look at is that there are muslims all over the world but no form of government is islamic in any country. sure it would be great is all the muslims lived in islamic countries but the problem is finding a means to live inthose islamic countries whos laws arent very non native muslim friendly.....so what do you do then? there isnt much difference with the west and the islamic countires either. you have a community of pious and a community of not so pious people everywhere albeit youll find alot more people that are pious in muslim countires since it is a percentage of a larger population. as far as corruption from shirk to music to fornication....its all there even in some islamic countries.....iran for example is mostly shia, and when i went back home to pakistan i noticed there are so many forms of shirk like grave worshipping so how does that make them muslim? r these so called muslims rlly better than non muslims? i think not. i think these "muslims" who have brought inoovations in islam are ten times worse than kaffirs because atleast we know that kaffirs are so far off base they cant lead the muslims astray but some muslims can fall into the trap of these shirk committing idiots

 

[Tariqa]

what you have to look at is that there are Muslims all over the world but no form of government is Islamic in any country. sure it would be great is all the Muslims lived in Islamic countries but the problem is finding a means to live inthose islamic countries whos laws arent very non native muslim friendly.....so what do you do then? there isnt much difference with the west and the islamic countires either. you have a community of pious and a community of not so pious people everywhere albeit youll find alot more people that are pious in muslim countires since it is a percentage of a larger population. as far as corruption from shirk to music to fornication....its all there even in some islamic countries.....iran for example is mostly shia, and when i went back home to pakistan i noticed there are so many forms of shirk like grave worshipping so how does that make them muslim? r these so called muslims rlly better than non muslims? i think not. i think these "muslims" who have brought inoovations in islam are ten times worse than kaffirs because atleast we know that kaffirs are so far off base they cant lead the muslims astray but some muslims can fall into the trap of these shirk committing idiots

Brother that was one of the most intriguing points i have read on this entire post.. yes you do make a valid point..Actually i have no aim toward fighting against deviant sects of Islam.. Many of the governments such as the government in Saudi Arabia follows the Madhab's of the hannibli fiqh...school of thought.. They may fall short to follow every fatwa but they try to do so a little at least.. What you are telling me is something i had no knowledge of.. I did not know that majority of certain countries are shia and this sounds to be very odd.... If what you are saying is true then i too will advise you too avoid these lands as these lands are not even majority Muslim if their beliefs incorporate shirk...

As i have said i cannot make any rulings until i know for sure what you say is true specifically what you say about Iran being mostly shia... If this is true than the Muslims would be better off in these countries then in non Muslims lands... Even if they are deviant Muslim sects.. Yes we all know that a man of bidah is worst than a man who is ignorant..he is off the worst sinner so we can judge and clearly say who is in the fold of Islam and who is not...


Indeed this is a very intriguing issue...It is one that i may even have to research because it did not cross my mind that there are Muslim lands that are majority deviant.... I mean the type of deviance that falls outside the fold of Islam like Sufism as opposed to disobedient Sunni Muslims...just falling short to practice correctly..


All in all mister your point is very valid that there are so called muslims that are clearly kufr... I would say that no Muslim should leave a land of kufr(such as shias) to another land of kufr...Instead the Muslims should find areas of these lands that are not infested with deviant Muslim groups... Like in non Muslim lands that have Muslim communities, the same should be done for the Muslims in their so called deviant Muslim lands... But no way should a Muslim find himself go to a land where the kufr is not a hidden shirk but is i more blatant shirk as in the lands of the non Muslims.
The difference between deviant sect Muslims and non Muslims is that the deviant Muslims still claim and think that they are doing the right thing while a non Muslim knows he is wrong and he admits that he is on the path of the kufr...the non Muslims boasts about being kufr while the deviant Muslim thinks he is doing a good by being evil in islam...he is ignorant and we should still give them advice and dawah...



It is true that many Muslims fall for this trap but the cure will not be in the non Muslim lands..As i have said the Muslims in non Muslim lands should stick together as they are doing so and the Muslims in deviant Muslim lands should also do the same...they should only strive for the best.. they should not turn around or seek another evil land which is equal in sin or worst in sin...

 

[Ar-RaYYan]

I still have to visit Dearborn, Michigan. It is the US city with the largest percentage of Muslims. The City Council now has a majority Muslim
membership and the new city laws are Sharia. The City broadcasts the Athan 5 times daily, city wide. Islam is the largest single religion in Dearborn.

wow mashallah thats amazing!

to the thread starter - i know you keep saying that muslims need to move back to muslim countries but where do you suggest muslim converts move to? like some of the members already said not many islamic countries are willing to accept non-native muslims!

It is a different time.. We can not use things that were done in the time of Medina because they were going through beginning States.. They went through all of that so that our generations wouldn't have to go through the same things they have went through.. Its a shame that Muslims chooses to leave their lands and make it hard on themselves causing the ummah to separate, the same thing the Islamic predecessors were fighting against so that we today would stick together.. Now today people are taking the easy way out, leaving the ummah well it self destroys it self to give dawah to people who will not help much of the situation to begin with??
Our dawah and jihad is at home first... We must stay as soldiers and protect our homelands.. though the Muslims know not what is best for them.. We cannot just say "oh the Muslim countries are all corrupt so lets move to an even worst non Muslim society and leave the ignorant Muslims in sin.. We must stay and fight against our Muslim brothers before some non Muslim such as Bush comes in our Muslims states and sets up regimes like democraocy...

i know its important to give dawah to our muslim brothers and sisters but giving dawah to non-muslim is just as important! If muslims did not move to non-muslim countries Islam wouldnt have spread as much as it has today.

Again i think you are not understanding what i am saying... You cannot practice your deen to the full extent in a non Muslim land... Hijab is not all of Islam..

i dont think you can practice your deen to the full extent in most 'Islamic countries'

What you don't seem to understand is that it is not the parts of Islam you can practice in non Muslim countries but the parts you cannot practice or is very hard to do so... Most people that live in non Muslims lands fail for even being in the country in that is not practicing the deen.. If their is a land that is so corrupt that you are living in sin for just living their then you are not a practicing Muslim if you believe that you can practice your deen committing daily sins...

Many muslims find easier to practice Islam in the west than some islamic countries.
Can you clarify the daily sins muslims in the west are committing?

You have more religious freedom in other countries and it would be obligatory to leave, as there is no way in any Muslims right stubborn mind that he or she can say i can practice my deen FULLY in a non Muslim land. that statement is contradictory to itself..

ever lived in Tunisia, Turkey, Somalia, Morroco, Iran? At least here in the west we have more religious freedom than those so-called muslim countries

 

[Ansariyah]

Some people are Refugees, wat u gonna tell them go back to their war stricken countries n die?

Some people call the west their home, were born n bred right here, why shud they leave.

Besides, if we all leave who will conquer the west n turn it into Muslim countries?:blind:

 

[Argamemnon]

Muslims tend to be well educated and yes in the upper middle class or even upper class

Not here in Europe, maybe in the US.

 

[Intisar]

Not here in Europe, maybe in the US.

How would you know that brother? There are many well-educated Muslims living in the West. Raage Omar for example, he's a top journalist from Britain and he's Muslim. I also have many Uncles from my father's side who live in Europe and are doctors, attorneys, and accountants. You can't make such a sweeping generalisation brother.

The same goes for many Muslims living in the States, and Canada. Wayyyyy before I was born my father studied abroad in the United States and England, and then he decided to go back to his country and help his people. If he had the opportunity to move back to home, of course he would but unfortunately he cannot.

Most people don't choose to live in Non-Muslim lands, it's simply a matter of circumstance. Many people fled wars, and as result became refugees and went to Western nations to seek assylum. Others simply cannot work in Muslim countries because job opportunities are scarce, many of them want you to at least have a degree (some even a high school diploma). Finally, some people call the West their home; they were born and raised here.

I don't understand this ''go back to where you belong'' mentality, because in essence, if you live in the US, Canada, or Australia, natives and aboriginals are the ones whom this land that we live in belong to. Unfortunately the colonisers came and the natives have become almost extinct.

Unfortunately in Europe you cannot use the ''I belong here as much as you do'' rant because they're the original people of those nations. At the end of the day, this is Ard Allaah, and Allaah made this world spacious enough for you to follow his commandments so there is essentially no excuse.

Say alhamdulilah that you have 3 warm meals a day, a place to live in, a family to love, and a place where you are not persecuted because so many people (living in Muslim countries btw) would love to be in your position(s). It's not all honky-dory, especially considering the fact that a lot of ''Muslim'' countries have on-going civil wars that have lasted almost more than a decade.

 

[Yanal]

Bismilahair Rahmanair raheem

Bro I do not know why you posted this thread but I'll answer anyway. We live in a non Muslim country because we are hear to live our life in an easy way in the way of Allah. The corruption comes from leaders and politicians start that and in our so called non- Muslim country there aren't many Muslim leaders . Living with non believers is no harm rather than having good respect between neighbors. It just prides us to be a Muslim if we live near non believers.

 

[Keltoi]

When a Muslim chooses to live in a non-Muslim country, meaning here the West, they are choosing to move into a system of government. Not a Christian country, Buddhist country, Hindu country, etc. The "West" is a system. Capitalist, secular, law and order, constitutions, etc. Compared to most so-called "Muslim" countries that gives them more opportunity to live an Islamic life.