Logic in Religion

[czgibson]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Greetings,

The real issue comes down to whether or not one is logical enough and rational enough, and uses their reason enough to "trust Allah" -and not whether or not Allah (swt) was right. Once you trust Him you know He's right, and you trust Him because you used reason in the first place!

Right - a classic example of circular logic. You believe because you believe.

The source is a series called Greek, Indian and Arabic Logic, I'll look up the page number and get back to you.

Great. So do you actually have any particular philosophers in mind?

As a whole, I'm not saying that logic should not be used or relied upon. It's just important to keep in mind that logic is quite often based upon the knowledge we have open to us, and our knowledge is always limited and restricted - so logic too will have its limits and restrictions.

Of course - you've pretty much given a definition of logic there. It can't tell us what's true; it can only evaluate arguments, and tell us whether conclusions follow from given premises. For instance, this argument:

All chickens are rabbits

All rabbits are blue

Therefore all chickens are blue

is logically valid, but its premises are not. We need to use our own judgement to decide whether any particular premises are true or not. For that we need evidence.

As far as shaving the babies head - a logical reason could be that it strengthens the tips of the hair and hair often grows thicker and stronger. As for not keeping dogs as pets, you could argue that maintaining a dog is a waste of money when that money could be going elsewhere (i.e. human beings who are starving).

You could argue these things, but you could just as well argue that chickens are blue - the point is that many people abide by these rulings when there is no real reason for doing so. Something that often happens in cults (as a tenuous relation to the supposed topic of this thread...).

Baldness is hereditary, so babies are powerless in its wake, and neo-natal shaving will make no difference; and keeping almost any other animal is also costly, so the specific prohibition against dogs seems odd to say the least.

Why make straw-clutching justifications for something that you only believe because of the argument from authority anyway?

Peace

 

[Woodrow]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

no sis the WEIGHT in gold, think about it hair doesnt weight very much and dont take the word "gold" literally, it just means money i think.

sis you seem to know a lot about the hygiene system of cats n dogs, now personally i always thought of dogs as the dirty ones, however i heard islamically cats have been allowed as pets due o there cleanliness. what do you base your statement of cats being dirty on? what do they do thats so dirty?

Having had many cats, I beleive I can speak from experience. Now, it is true a cat will appear to be licking itself clean often. But, the reality is it is merely trying to get the last bit of splattered blood from it's last kill. It is true that a cat can be trained to use a litter box, but when it don't feel like using it, you will have a very unpleasent surpise in either your pillow or your slippers. A hungry cat is also a notorious garbage can digger, if you don't feed it on demand or what it wants.

Another pleasure of a cat is the frequent "gifts" of partialy eaten, decaying birds and mice you will find in very strange places. Now, if you ever want a truly odiferous house, get a nice tom cat who will gladly "perfume" any soft furniture you value.

Last but not least. Give a cat a bath. It is advisable to have the EMT's standing by, before trying that.

 

[mlsh27]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Having had many cats, I beleive I can speak from experience. Now, it is true a cat will appear to be licking itself clean often. But, the reality is it is merely trying to get the last bit of splattered blood from it's last kill. It is true that a cat can be trained to use a litter box, but when it don't feel like using it, you will have a very unpleasent surpise in either your pillow or your slippers. A hungry cat is also a notorious garbage can digger, if you don't feed it on demand or what it wants.

Another pleasure of a cat is the frequent "gifts" of partialy eaten, decaying birds and mice you will find in very strange places. Now, if you ever want a truly odiferous house, get a nice tom cat who will gladly "perfume" any soft furniture you value.

Last but not least. Give a cat a bath. It is advisable to have the EMT's standing by, before trying that.

LOL..so true! As a former pet bather, I always dreaded cats over dogs. One good brush of one of my cats produces more hair than my dog over her 12 years of brushing.

 

[azim]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

On the opposite side of your logic, but if you do not bring this stray dog into your house, it will die on the streets or be euthanized. I view animals and people on the same level, so I don't buy your argument.

I agree its important to take care of animals, as shown in the hadith: -

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The Prophet said, "A woman entered the (Hell) Fire because of a cat which she had tied, neither giving it food nor setting it free to eat from the vermin of the earth." (Book #54, Hadith #535)

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A man saw a dog eating mud from (the severity of) thirst. So, that man took a shoe (and filled it) with water and kept on pouring the water for the dog till it quenched its thirst. So Allah approved of his deed and made him to enter Paradise." And narrated Hamza bin 'Abdullah: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques (come and go), nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog.)" (Book #4, Hadith #174)

Although do you really place animals and humans as equal?

Great. So do you actually have any particular philosophers in mind?

There were quotes from the early Greek philosophers, Aristotle included. Just bare with me and I'll post all relevant sections.

Why make straw-clutching justifications for something that you only believe because of the argument from authority anyway?

I just showing that if you wanted to you logic in terms of worldy benefits - you could justify it 'logically' in those ways.

My own personal justification would be that as a religious follower, you either accept a religion is true or false. You use your logic, your availiable knowledge, and all the tools open to you to reach these ends. If you accept a religion as true, then you will accept the vague areas that have no clear benefit or drawback and (here follows the line all atheists and agnostics seem to hate) you 'trust in God'. Since you have already come to the conclusion that God exists, and that his revelation is true, you don't need to find any clear reasons to follow things such as eating pigs meat or not keeping dogs.

 

[mlsh27]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Although do you really place animals and humans as equal?

Yes, I do. Why would I have said it if I didn't? Besides, we are animals too.

 

[azim]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Yes, I do. Why would I have said it if I didn't? Besides, we are animals too.

So if you had a bottle of water, and in front of you was a kitten about to die of thirst and a baby about to die with thirst - and you only had enough water for one - you would be stumped as to which you would save?

 

[mlsh27]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

So if you had a bottle of water, and in front of you was a kitten about to die of thirst and a baby about to die with thirst - and you only had enough water for one - you would be stumped as to which you would save?

Yes. I know you won't get it- very few do.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

One needs to distinguish between a practice that is illogical and a practice whose underlying wisdoms are unknown. Just because one does not understand the wisdoms behind a practice does not constitute sufficient grounds for a logical objection to the practice.

As far as Islam is concerned, there are many practices which we simply do because we have been commanded to live according to this code of life. There are many practices in Islam whice are implemented solely for religious reasons. You can't convince a non-muslim that there is some inherent benefit in entering the washroom with your left foot, making tawaaf, or eating with your right hand, or not keeping a dog as a pet, or not shaving half your head and leaving the other half, etc. These are regulations that are part of the complete way of life Islam has brought. They may not necessarily have individual or distinct reasons behind them.

Allah prohibited Adam from eating from 1 tree as a test for him, not that there was anything special about that 1 tree. That test in paradise was a foreshadowing of the tests he would endure on earth. God has prescribed for us simple laws to follow and submit ourselves to. Islam means submission. We submit ourselves to the system of life ordained by God and implement it in our lives.

A non-muslim came to Salmân Al-Farisî and tried to make fun of Islam saying, "Has your prophet really taught you every petty detail of life, even how to wash yourself after you defecate?!" Salmân Al-Farisi responded without hesitation, "Yes! He taught us." And he went on to explain the etiquettes. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Musnad Ahmad). He didn't try to rationalize and present medical reasons to justify the practices. The fact that they come from the Messenger of God is sufficient justification. Salmân's open and frank manner confounded his opponent.

So for the Muslim who has no doubts that such practices were ordained by God, then the only logical response is, "We hear and we obey" (Qur'an 24:51). For the one who has doubts, they need to first confirm their belief in the Qur'an and the Sunnah through logical investigation. A well-researched and scholarly book on the veracity of Islam is Dr. Laurence Brown's The First and Final Commandment:
http://www.leveltruth.com/ffcommain.asp

Regards

 

[azim]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Yes. I know you won't get it- very few do.

As a Muslim sis, I would I really recommend saving the child's life based on the following ayah of the Quran: -

So we ordained that if anyone killed a person unjustly, it would be as if they had slaughted mankind completely and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if they had saved the entire human race. 5:32

 

[mlsh27]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Like I said Azim, I equate animals and humans. That ayah doesn't change my mind one bit because there are also several about animals. Also, in your example, water can always be split up.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Greetings,


Right - a classic example of circular logic. You believe because you believe.

That is not what I said (that one believes because they believe). I think it's preposterous to believe because you believe. I think this is one of the biggest fallacies of some of our Christian brethren. In fact I said the exact opposite. What I said was, the first step is using reason to determine whether or not Al Qu'ran is from God and whether or not Muhammad (saas) is a Messenger from God. Once you have used reason to determine this, then and only then is the "just trust Allah" arguement applicable.

 

[czgibson]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Greetings,

That is not what I said (that one believes because they believe). I think it's preposterous to believe because you believe. I think this is one of the biggest fallacies of some of our Christian brethren. In fact I said the exact opposite. What I said was, the first step is using reason to determine whether or not Al Qu'ran is from God and whether or not Muhammad (saas) is a Messenger from God. Once you have used reason to determine this, then and only then is the "just trust Allah" arguement applicable.

You believe that abiding by the prohibition on dogs (for example) is rational because you believe you have used reason to establish that the authority on which you base that judgement is trustworthy. In what way is that reasoning not circular?

Peace

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

However, anyone can still question Islam easily...it all comes down to trust. Do you trust that the people wrote the qu'ran down as it was told? Do you trust what Muhammad pbuh said he experienced? And to be honest, I do have some doubt because people shouldn't be trusted and people are well-known liars. Only Allah swt knows the truth, but we will never 100% know. For me I take the out look "better safe than sorry"

Well, there is no need to trust whether or not Muhammad (saas) was telling the truth about the revelation he recieved. Most modern scholars, even among the non-Muslims finally admit that he experienced something I.E. that he wasn't simply lying about recieving some sort of experience.

This has come to be generally accepted because of incidents in Muhammads life that have no logical answer as to what made Muhammad (saas) respond or think in certain ways at certain times.

For example, When Muhammad (Saas) and Abu Bakr (raa) were hiding in the cave, from the Meccans, Abu Bakr (raa) was sure that they were about to be killed as the Meccans approached the cave. So what did Muhammad (saas) do? If he were lying I would suggest he would say "grab your sword Abu Bakr, and prepare to fight our way out of this..." -or maybe a liar in his position would say, "Lets move deeper into the cave..." -or even, "Let's find a back way out.." -But what was Muhammad's response? He said, "We are three...Allah (swt) is with us..."

Because of this and equally convincing episodes in Muhammad's (saas) life, it becomes more difficult to call him a liar, and much easier to believe He was recieving messages from God.

This is why non-Muslim Montgomery Watt has written, "To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves..." And many agree with him.

Due to this realization, non-Muslim orientalists attempt to come up with all sorts of preposterous suppositions as to where Muhammad (saas) recieved his visions from. For example, Atheist Maxime Rodinson attributes it to some sort of split personality disorder, in which there is Muhammad (saas) and his alter ego Allah (swt) -Astagfur Allah... which is beyond the realm of silly verging on the edge of impossible when other facts of Muhammad's life are taken into consideration...

This is why the Qu'ran condemns those so strongly who do not use their reason... because reason leads to Islam...

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Greetings,


You believe that abiding by the prohibition on dogs (for example) is rational because you believe you have used reason to establish that the authority on which you base that judgement is trustworthy. In what way is that reasoning not circular?

Peace

In the same way that it is not circular logic to trust a renown mathematician who I personally know to be trustworthy to solve a math problem for me that I cannot solve. If he was known and renowned in his field, and I knew him personally to be trustworthy, then I would not need to know how he solved my problem. I would use reason to establish that he is not a liar based off of common knowledge, that he is an expert in the field based on the commendation of other knowledgeable men in his field, and that he has a degree in mathematics certifying him.

When he solves my math problem I'm not going to worry about whether or not I want to turn it into my teacher the next day thinking maybe he got it wrong. This is not circular logic, but logic, plain and simple.

The more appropriate question is, how is this circular logic?

 

[mlsh27]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Well, there is no need to trust whether or not Muhammad (saas) was telling the truth about the revelation he recieved. Most modern scholars, even among the non-Muslims finally admit that he experienced something I.E. that he wasn't simply lying about recieving some sort of experience.

This has come to be generally accepted because of incidents in Muhammads life that have no logical answer as to what made Muhammad (saas) respond or think in certain ways at certain times.

For example, When Muhammad (Saas) and Abu Bakr (raa) were hiding in the cave, from the Meccans, Abu Bakr (raa) was sure that they were about to be killed as the Meccans approached the cave. So what did Muhammad (saas) do? If he were lying I would suggest he would say "grab your sword Abu Bakr, and prepare to fight our way out of this..." -or maybe a liar in his position would say, "Lets move deeper into the cave..." -or even, "Let's find a back way out.." -But what was Muhammad's response? He said, "We are three...Allah (swt) is with us..."

Because of this and equally convincing episodes in Muhammad's (saas) life, it becomes more difficult to call him a liar, and much easier to believe He was recieving messages from God.

This is why non-Muslim Montgomery Watt has written, "To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves..." And many agree with him.

Due to this realization, non-Muslim orientalists attempt to come up with all sorts of preposterous suppositions as to where Muhammad (saas) recieved his visions from. For example, Atheist Maxime Rodinson attributes it to some sort of split personality disorder, in which there is Muhammad (saas) and his alter ego Allah (swt) -Astagfur Allah... which is beyond the realm of silly verging on the edge of impossible when other facts of Muhammad's life are taken into consideration...

This is why the Qu'ran condemns those so strongly who do not use their reason... because reason leads to Islam...

Just because many people agree doesn't make them right. Ex: the earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, etc.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

Just because many people agree doesn't make them right. Ex: the earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, etc.

Indeed I agree. one of my favorite quotes is "Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal."

However, I was not saying that "these guys say it is true and so it's true." What I was saying was "These guys say it's true, and this is why they say it, and I have yet to find a reasonable objection to their claims."

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Re: What’s the difference between a cult and a religion?

The issue is what does it entail to use logic. For example, is a Muslim saying, "Just trust Allah" illogical? If you ask why a Muslim can't eat pork or have a dog in the house, and you talk to him/her about it for a while, and finally they just say "trust Allah" -there is nothing illogical about this. The reason is because The Qu'ran is meticulously preserved, and is the complete word of God. Now a Muslim does not accept the Qu'ran on blind faith, and neither do we accept the Messenger Muhammad (saas) on blind faith. In fact, the root word for Iman, the Arabic word for faith, is Eminah, which means, "Confirmation." -So a Muslim has faith, but that's only because he/she has thought about al Qu'ran and the personality of Muhammad (saas), deduced that the Qu'ran is the word of God and Muhammad (saas) is His final Messenger. This has been proven to the Muslim by logic and reasoning. So then, when a Muslim finds something in Al-Qu'ran that may not have a suitable answer immediatley, and says simple, "Trust Allah." -This is not illogical or unreasonable. After all, the Qu'ran is from God and very logical evidences and proofs can be shown to deduce that. So if the Qu'ran is undoubtedly from God, as it is, then one need not question it's dictates when an individual comes to a question they can't find an answer to immediatley.

It is not the same as a Christian saying, "Trust Jesus." -Because the next logical question qould be, "where do I find what he said? and they say, "The Bible" and then the next question is, "How do I know he said that?" and then one goes on to relate the endless discoveries and proofs that question the Bibles authenticity.

The real issue comes down to whether or not one is logical enough and rational enough, and uses their reason enough to "trust Allah" -and not whether or not Allah (swt) was right. Once you trust Him you know He's right, and you trust Him because you used reason in the first place!

Salaamz!

subhanAllah, reps for you brother, wat a brilliant explenation !
JazakAllah khair wa barakAllah feekum!

 

[j4763]

Umm... right so... What’s the difference between a cult and a religion? :X

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Umm... right so... What’s the difference between a cult and a religion? :X

wrong thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...92s+the+difference+between+a+cult+religion%3F



In this thread we are discussing if religion agrees with logic. And we gather that Islam does while the others do not !



PS: Ye i know you wont agree to that :rollseyes

 

[Abdul Fattah]

To get back on the cat vs. dog issue.
What you see is not what you get, there's a good reason why a dog is considered more dirty. When you put a dog's saliva next to a cat one's you 'll find the dog has much higher bacteria cultures.
Cat do not eat there own faeces. That is simply not true, had cats all my life they were afraid of even touching their own faeces. It' even their natural habit to bury that stuff so it gets out of the way. A cat washes itself. Ok I admit, with its own saliva, that doesn't sound tastefull. But it's better then a dog who just doesn't care how dirty he is.

Oh beside I got a technique to wash a cat without problems. Just put them in an empty bath, and if you have a good relationship with your cat it will alow you to hold her when it's calm. Position the cat so that if you let the tab run gently, it's feet won't get wet. Next put one hand over it's head covering up the eyes so it doesn't see what you're doing. Then open up the watertab and gently poor water over the cat by petting here with a hand full of water. As long as the cat doesn't realise you're pooriong water, and as long as you don't use to much, it won't be a problem, oh you might want to use water at body-temperature. It takes some practise, but once you got the technique, works like a charm.

Gotta cats