Many Christians are Converting to Islam

[Burninglight]

Oh. I see you are back! Welcome back brother. Now I have a question for you. Earlier you posted.

Thank you

How in the world do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any idea what Jesus (pbuh) was thinking in his full mind when you weren't there? The Bible? No. The Bible doesn't even MEAN Gospel. It comes from the Greek word biblios which literally just means book. We don't know if anything that Jesus (pbuh) said in that Bible is the truth because it cannot be verified with the original and we KNOW it has been changed over the years.

I believe that is a fair question. I had explained why I know that, I put it together with other things Jesus has said about Himself in the Bible and with things that OT and NT prophets and apostles said about Jesus, and I come to the conclusion that that is what the author or authors intended it to be. It is the only logical deduction to make. Now if all the authors of the Bible were liars and the Bible is all contrived as you would have me believe, then I would still say that is what the prophet intended according to the authors of the Scritures. Truth can be stranger than fiction.

How in the world, can you sit there and take the words of someone writing under a false name as Gospel truth and then accuse Ehrman of being a liar when this is a man who has studied these scriptures.

I have studied the Scriptures too. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to firgure this guy jumped out of the frying pan in to the fire. He now with all his studies comes to the conclusion "Well maybe God doesn't exist" I see the wisdom in that; not.

"For somebody who has faith in the Bible, I can see why it might be threatening," Ehrman said. "But just because it's threatening doesn't mean it's not true."

Well, i don't have faith in the Bible sister. People like Erhman and Muslims have done a good job taking that from me, but I do have faith in Jesus. I believe the Bible has additions, omissions and errors in translation, but inspite of all that Jesus shines through to my heart. So as is written in the Bible, "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true"

And yes, Ehrman now went the agnostic route because he was tired of all of the tricks and lies that were brought to the world about salvation and the misery that exists in it. Why do you chose to ignore facts and continue to restate refuted lies? Why do you think you know better than Christian pastors and scholars and even scientists who saw modern day Christianity for what it is and choose not to accept the lies as truth? Yet when these brothers here have tried to show you, you accuse them of having a wrong interpretation. No, you do. You are going off of someone elses interpretation to make a puzzle fit together that never was.

I don't think i know better. What puzzle am I trying to make fit? Brothers have tried to show me what my religion is about. I think I would be better to judge that just like you would about your religion

I just want to know. What happened to you that you choose to ignore the facts?

Why facts my sister. Do you mean the fact that the Bible is totally unreliable and the Quran is? If Erhman is so smart, why couldn't he come to that conclusion? All he did is talked himself out of God and some other poor souls. If he talks that way about the Bible what do you think he would say about the Quran?

Many other Christians who come to this forum easily recognize those errors, and yes, they still have faith in God but after learning here their concept of how to worship God correctly changes

What do you mean? They converted to Islam or reverted as you would say? Is that what happened to the other Christians, but I am the slow one??.

No need for this trinity, original sin, but worshipping one God without any partners and following the teachings of Jesus (pbuh). That is at least one step better for you than following the ideas of man-made dogmas that lead you off of the right path.

I have never preached trinity to anyone or orginal sin. Muslims bring up trinity more than Christians. Trinity is a term that is not mentioned in the Bible nor is the term orginal sin. So why do you bring it up to me? Jesus in the Bible said, "I am the Way, Truth and the Life" He didn't say I show the way like other prophets. Jesus said, "before ABRAHAM WAS I AM" "THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE" The Jews wanted Jesus dead for a reason. They finally got what they wanted. The death of Christ is historically proven a fact. I didn't hear Dr. Bart Erhman refute that; did you?
May we all come to the knowledge of truth!

 

[Aprender]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to firgure this guy jumped out of the frying pan in to the fire. He now with all his studies comes to the conclusion "Well maybe God doesn't exist" I see the wisdom in that; not.

I totally agree with you there. I find that's one of the problems with the atheist/agnostic. Just because they find something about ONE religion that they don't like or deem true, they brand every other religion the same. I grew up with a friend who was born and raised a Shik and once we got into college, he totally let go of his religion, branded all of them lies, and became an atheist.

Now if all the authors of the Bible were liars and the Bible is all contrived as you would have me believe, then I would still say that is what the prophet intended according to the authors of the Scritures.

But we don't believe ALL of the Bible is contrived and ALL of the author of the Bible are liars. Some of the good still shines through in those words but the major parts of what Christianity WAS isn't taught anymore. It's something very different now. So do the Christians back then who worshiped one God go to hell because they didn't believe Jesus(pbuh) was the son of God and their savior?

I don't think i know better. What puzzle am I trying to make fit? Brothers have tried to show me what my religion is about. I think I would be better to judge that just like you would about your religion

Take note that some of the people here trying to answer your questions were once devout Christians too. And it's not you. It's the people who came up with these creeds and doctrines and verses they added to the Bible to make the puzzles of the trinity and original sin fit when they weren't there in the Bible to begin with but they force feed it into congregations.

What do you mean? They converted to Islam or reverted as you would say? Is that what happened to the other Christians, but I am the slow one??.

No. Some Christians who come here do not convert/revert to Islam. But after studies they no longer accept the trinity or original sin as after doing their research they see that these concepts don't make sense to them. I know a few who still attend church every Sunday or Saturday for 7th Day Adventists, but they don't take everything that their pastor says as Gospel truth because they now understand where the errors are. And instead, they follow the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and pray to God alone. I'm not saying that you are slow. I'm glad that you are taking your time and doing your research. This is better than just taking everything someone says and blindly following it. But it's also important for you to keep an open mind. It took me 4 years of questioning, reading, and everything before I decided to embrace Islam.

Trinity is a term that is not mentioned in the Bible nor is the term orginal sin. So why do you bring it up to me?

You're right. But the problem is that original sin is taught in churches to justify Jesus (pbuh) dying for the sins all of mankind when he said he was sent to the lost ones of Israel. These are the things that most Christians believe to be the truth even though they are not found in the Bible.

May I ask, what kind of Christian are you, brother? What do you believe about God and what do you believe about Jesus(pbuh)? And have you ever looked into any other religions (aside from Islam)? And please, go in-depth with me here. I want to hear your testimony if you don't mind. Do you believe that certain sects of Christianity are on the wrong path? Do you belive that everyone in the world who isn't the right kind of Christian will go to hell? I think this might help us understand where you are coming from a little bit better so we can avoid any further misunderstandings.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes, I understand Islam sees Adam and Jesus as God's creation. The Biblical sees Adam as God's creation as well, but when the Bible traces geneology, it traces it back as far as Adam making us all brothers and sisters of Adam, moreover, the Bible refers to Adam has son of God in the sense that all prophets and all people have a father. It shows Adam's father is God even though we all agree he was created by God without earthly mother or father.

This concept of "Adam's father is God" is difficult for me to comprehend.

Christians believe that Jesus will not be pleased with those calling him "Son of Mary" and just a prophet no different than any other or even less significant then Muhammad.

It is interesting that you mention Jesus as 'Son of Mary'. Jesus is mentioned by name in 25 verses of the Quran and in 16 of those his name is followed by 'Son of Mary', 4 times 'Messiah' was followed by 'Son of Mary' and 2 times he is referred to simply as 'Son of Mary'. The phrase 'Son of Mary' thus occurs in 22 of the Quran. In the Gospel According to Matthew Jesus is quoted as referring to himself as the 'Son of Man' in 29 verses, but in this same book the title 'Son of God' is not found on the tongue of Jesus even once. It seems incredibly odd that Jesus made a point of referring to himself as the 'Son of Man' AND that the Quran refers to his as the 'Son of Mary'.

Muslims also expect Jesus to return during the Last Days to reign as the Messiah/Annointed One/King.

 

[Burninglight]

I totally agree with you there. I find that's one of the problems with the atheist/agnostic. Just because they find something about ONE religion that they don't like or deem true, they brand every other religion the same. I grew up with a friend who was born and raised a Shik and once we got into college, he totally let go of his religion, branded all of them lies, and became an atheist.

Good, it is nice to be on the same page with someone for a change.

But we don't believe ALL of the Bible is contrived and ALL of the author of the Bible are liars. Some of the good still shines through in those words but the major parts of what Christianity WAS isn't taught anymore. It's something very different now. So do the Christians back then who worshiped one God go to hell because they didn't believe Jesus(pbuh) was the son of God and their savior?

I know you don't Aprender. lol, your question is funny here. Why should the Christians back then go to hell? If they didn't believe Jesus is the son of God, they wouldn't be Christians. They would be Jews or Muslims or some other type of theist, but not Christian. To be a Christian one must have Jesus in there heart, and believe He is who he says he is in the Bible.

Take note that some of the people here trying to answer your questions were once devout Christians too. And it's not you. It's the people who came up with these creeds and doctrines and verses they added to the Bible to make the puzzles of the trinity and original sin fit when they weren't there in the Bible to begin with but they force feed it into congregations.

Many Christians have different interpretation of Scriptures. I know the Bible doesn't use the term trinity so I am happy not to use it. But I always get it thrown in my face. Trinity is not there, but the Father is mentioned and the Holy Spirit is mentioned as being God, but I don't see the Holy Spirit as an associate or partner of God. I don't know if all Christians will agree, but I believe God is Spirit like the Bible says; I believe He is Holy; therefore, He is the Almighty Holy Spirit who is the only one true God. Now Jesus is the issue Muslim particularily have with Christians. They see Him as a prophet and we do too. They see Him as a messenger, but we don't. We see Him as the message of God (The word of God). We see Jesus not as God's partner or associate but as the very extention of His word to us in human form.

Islam is about man trying to reach God from what i can tell, but Christianity is about God reaching out to man. All we have to do is accept it. God is the only one who can finish what he started in us. This is the good news; we can rest from our labor; we can be free instead of slaves; we can let go and let God. That's means freedom from bondage and slavery of keeping rules and ordiances. Whom the son sets free is free indeed. We are free to do what is right not what we want.

You're right. But the problem is that original sin is taught in churches to justify Jesus (pbuh) dying for the sins all of mankind when he said he was sent to the lost ones of Israel. These are the things that most Christians believe to be the truth even though they are not found in the Bible.

original sin may be taught but I don't believe it justifies Jesus dying on the cross, but I believe Jesus' death on the cross justifies us before God for our past, present and future sin, but that is not a liciense to sin for God is not mocked; whatever a person sows so shall he reap.

May I ask, what kind of Christian are you, brother? What do you believe about God and what do you believe about Jesus(pbuh)? And have you ever looked into any other religions (aside from Islam)? And please, go in-depth with me here. I want to hear your testimony if you don't mind. Do you believe that certain sects of Christianity are on the wrong path? Do you belive that everyone in the world who isn't the right kind of Christian will go to hell? I think this might help us understand where you are coming from a little bit better so we can avoid any further misunderstandings.

yes, you may, I answered your question in part already. I see it this way. God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives. I see a gaint court room with all the world watching from all people tongues and nations and the risen dead from times ancient. Even the Devil / Satan will be there and all heavenly hosts. Satan is the prosecuting attorney; God is the judge. We stand before God guilty as sin and the prosecuting attorney reminds God he/she is guilty they are mine.

God allows us to see our life in a flash. There is no doubt of our guilt before Him. So God says to us "depart from me into everlasting fire you wicked unprofitable servant" because God is JUST, it must be so. It is different for those that know Jesus. Jesus is their defense attorney. The Devil will say to God he/she is guilty, but Jesus says hold on. They are not gulity; they are innocent and pure holy and acceptable and I have them written in the plams of my hand and they are found in the book of life.

I believe the Scripture that says: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on Him. I believe many people are doing things for God, but if they are not meeting God on His terms, it profits them nothing. Jesus said. "I am the the way.." he said, "NO man comes to the father except through me." I believe anyone trying to get to God any other way won't get there. I see it like I invite someone to my house. I tell them the way to get to my house, because of where my house is located. They can say "No I will go a different and better way", but they don't arrive. I know where I live, and I know how to get there, but they chose their way and got lost. I hope that gives you an idea of what I believe.

We can say the Scriptures are corrupted and not believe it. Most people will excuse us but will God? It is written that "If anyone teaches you different than Jesus Christ crucified, even if an angle comes and tells you different, let Him be eternally condemned."

I believe there are errors in the Bible, but not about matters of salvation, because it involves our eternal souls. I do not believe man's power to corrupt God's original plan of salvation is greater than the one true Almighty God's power to preserve it. I believe the Devil tries to twart God's plan, but he will fail in my life.
May Satan be bound and we all be bless with the knowledge of TRUTH

 

[MustafaMc]

I believe God is Spirit like the Bible says; I believe He is Holy; therefore, He is the Almighty Holy Spirit who is the only one true God.

I personally believe that angels are spirits, but I have little understanding about what a spirit is other than that they exist in a different form than what I can perceive as a human. Others may correct me if I am wrong, but I don't necessarily see God as a 'Spirit' in the same sense that angels are. My understanding is that God exists in a dimension outside of His creation and that we humans have extremely little knowledge of His nature outside of what is revealed in the Quran including the descriptive names such as Rahmani, The Most Merciful, Ayatal Kursi 2:255, and the 'Light upon Light' verse 24:35.

Now Jesus is the issue Muslim particularily have with Christians. They see Him as a prophet and we do too. They see Him as a messenger, but we don't. We see Him as the message of God (The word of God). We see Jesus not as God's partner or associate but as the very extention of His word to us in human form.

I agree with you that this is the critical difference. You see that the gospel is not what Jesus said (as a messenger of God), but rather as what he did on the cross. The Quran 4:171 says, "...The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him... " This verse confirms Jesus as a messenger of God, but also includes the phrases 'His word' and 'a spirit from Him' which seems to confirm what you are saying. This concept is repeated in 66:12 "And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our spirit..." My limited understanding is that these verses refer to the supernatural aspect of Jesus coming into being, but I admit that I do not fully understand the meaning. These verses seem to support the Christian concept that Jesus is "God with us"; however, I leave it at what 3:59 says, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: 'Be!' and he is." This indicates that Jesus is a created being like Adam was.

Islam is about man trying to reach God from what i can tell, but Christianity is about God reaching out to man.

Actually, I see the sending of the Quran and Islam to mankind through Muhammad (saaws) was a means of 'God reaching out to man' and in so doing reveals what His will is for us in how we live our lives. I am reminded of Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. The point here is that 'does the will of My Father' is an action verb, but the question remains, "What is the 'will of My Father' ?"

This is the good news; we can rest from our labor; we can be free instead of slaves; we can let go and let God. That's means freedom from bondage and slavery of keeping rules and ordiances. Whom the son sets free is free indeed. We are free to do what is right not what we want.

This point illustrates the 'works vs faith' struggle between those who preached following the Judaic Law like Peter and Jesus' other disciples and that of justification by faith in Jesus taught by Paul. This conflict is reflected in the book of Galatians.

I see it this way. God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives.

On this I agree with you.

I see a gaint court room with all the world watching from all people tongues and nations and the risen dead from times ancient. ... Satan is the prosecuting attorney; God is the judge. ... So God says to us "depart from me into everlasting fire you wicked unprofitable servant" because God is JUST, it must be so. It is different for those that know Jesus. Jesus is their defense attorney.

This is an interesting concept. I see that we will have to give an account for our lives and that, yes, we are imperfect creatures full of shortcomings. I also see that we can't do or be good enough to merit entrance into Heaven for there yet remains the intention behind whatever good that we did. In Islam the intention is extremely important in determining merit of a deed and who among us can judge his own heart? Christians always say things like 'God is JUST' or 'sin MUST be punished'. I also see that God is just, but also that He is merciful and that he is a forgiving God to some and a wrathful God to others. Christians limit God's mercy to a formula of Him becoming a human, living a perfect life, and dying on the cross as the only possible means for man's redemption from his sins. I see the means of attaining the mercy of God as having proper faith without ascribing partners with Him, obeying His will (following the Sunnah) including how we worship Him and how we interact with our fellow creatures, refraining from sin and disobedience as much as possible, and having pure intention of doing what we do for the sake of God. In the end we are yet at the mercy of Allah.

I don't see Satan as prosecuting attorney, but rather as codefendant in having tempted mankind into disobedience as in the Quran 14:22 And Satan said, when the matter has been decided: Lo! Allah promised you a promise of truth; and I promised you, then failed you. And I had no power over you save that I called unto you and you obeyed me. So blame not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me, Lo!..." We see Muhammad (saaws) as our defense attorney and as our mediator with Allah who will plead for mercy on behalf of those who followed him.

I believe many people are doing things for God, but if they are not meeting God on His terms, it profits them nothing. ... I hope that gives you an idea of what I believe.

Thank you for sharing your faith and it pretty well reflected my understanding of the Christian faith. We differ in our understanding of what it means to 'meet God on His terms'. The Islamic terms are pure faith in One God without ascribing partners and following the Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) which coincidentally reflects the shahadah and the Christian terms are faith in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God (also as God in human flesh) and accepting the free gift of salvation which was Jesus death on the cross as their redeeming sacrifice.

We can say the Scriptures are corrupted and not believe it. Most people will excuse us but will God? It is written that "If anyone teaches you different than Jesus Christ crucified, even if an angle comes and tells you different, let Him be eternally condemned."

Yes, the self-proclaimed apostle/messenger to the Gentiles, Paul, wrote in Galatians 1:8-9, But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

I do not believe man's power to corrupt God's original plan of salvation is greater than the one true Almighty God's power to preserve it. I believe the Devil tries to twart God's plan, but he will fail in my life.
May Satan be bound and we all be bless with the knowledge of TRUTH

Let's be honest, hopefully, without being offensive. Either Islam or Christianity is the true religion or the straight way that leads to salvation and the other is a false one devised by Satan to mislead mankind away from the straight way and into the Hellfire to join him. Both cannot be correct with one saying, "Jesus is the Son of God" and the other saying "Jesus is not the Son of God." In the same manner, the revelation that Paul claimed in Galatians 1:12 to have received directly from God or the revelation to Muhammad (saaws) Quran 3:7 is a true revelation and the other one is false. Likewise, either Paul or Muhammad (saaws) is a true prophet and messenger of God and the other is a false prophet in sheep's clothing. It is a matter of what we individually decide to believe and each of us will stand before God along with the choice we make.

I agree rather strongly with you, "May Satan be bound and we all be blessed with the knowledge of TRUTH."

 

[Aprender]

yes, you may, I answered your question in part already. I see it this way. God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives. I see a gaint court room with all the world watching from all people tongues and nations and the risen dead from times ancient. Even the Devil / Satan will be there and all heavenly hosts. Satan is the prosecuting attorney; God is the judge. We stand before God guilty as sin and the prosecuting attorney reminds God he/she is guilty they are mine.

God allows us to see our life in a flash. There is no doubt of our guilt before Him. So God says to us "depart from me into everlasting fire you wicked unprofitable servant" because God is JUST, it must be so. It is different for those that know Jesus. Jesus is their defense attorney. The Devil will say to God he/she is guilty, but Jesus says hold on. They are not gulity; they are innocent and pure holy and acceptable and I have them written in the plams of my hand and they are found in the book of life.

I believe the Scripture that says: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on Him. I believe many people are doing things for God, but if they are not meeting God on His terms, it profits them nothing. Jesus said. "I am the the way.." he said, "NO man comes to the father except through me." I believe anyone trying to get to God any other way won't get there. I see it like I invite someone to my house. I tell them the way to get to my house, because of where my house is located. They can say "No I will go a different and better way", but they don't arrive. I know where I live, and I know how to get there, but they chose their way and got lost. I hope that gives you an idea of what I believe.

We can say the Scriptures are corrupted and not believe it. Most people will excuse us but will God? It is written that "If anyone teaches you different than Jesus Christ crucified, even if an angle comes and tells you different, let Him be eternally condemned."

I believe there are errors in the Bible, but not about matters of salvation, because it involves our eternal souls. I do not believe man's power to corrupt God's original plan of salvation is greater than the one true Almighty God's power to preserve it. I believe the Devil tries to twart God's plan, but he will fail in my life.
May Satan be bound and we all be bless with the knowledge of TRUTH

Before I address some of the other things that you wrote, you didn't answer a few of my other questions.

So what kind of Christian are you? Are you a Mennonite? 7th Day Adventist? Methodist? Lutheran? Anglican? Pentecostal? Quaker? Presbyterian? Charistmatic? Celtic Orthodox? Apolistic? Evangelical? Episcopal? Greek Orthodox? Scientologist? Non-denominational?

Have you ever looked into any other religions or are you Christian because you grew up in a Christian household? Do you believe that certain sects of Christianity (there are close to 34,000 different forms of Christianity) are on the wrong path and do you think that people who don't follow the right Christianity will go to hell?

And this one isn't apart of what I initially asked. But when you were growing up, as a child, what were you taught about Muslims in church and in the community before and after 9/11?

 

[Burninglight]

So what kind of Christian are you? Are you a Mennonite? 7th Day Adventist? Methodist? Lutheran? Anglican? Pentecostal? Quaker? Presbyterian? Charistmatic? Celtic Orthodox? Apolistic? Evangelical? Episcopal? Greek Orthodox? Scientologist? Non-denominational?

I was born and raised Catholic, but I don't know what I am now. I don't seem to fit well anywhere! I am one of those weird Christians I guess. I go to a non-demoninational church right now, but I am not sure I agree with everything the pastor believes. I have really gotten on the nerve of many a pastors asking about the Bible corruption and telling them they are intreperting this and that wrong; sometimes I had to leave the church to keep the peace. I didn't answer, sister, because i felt embarassed to say "I don't know what kind of Christian I am." Maybe you can tell me from my writings. I don't know if cult Christianity is going to heaven. No one in any church know what islam is about. I know more about it than any Christian I have meet in all the churches I have been to. I can tell you Islam as been stabbing pretty hard at my believe system all the same. I recant and repent of being embarassed; I am a Christian like Peter & Paul!

 

[MustafaMc]

If I were you, I wouldn't be embarassed to not know what kind of Christian I am. I would rather prefer to say, "I am the kind of Christian that Peter, James, Stephen and Barnabas were." This is how I see the Sunni Muslims are - the kind of Muslims that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali were.

This passage came to my mind. Though Christians don't see that they worship Mary, Muslims see that they do with the 'Hail Mary, Mother of God' and with the statues that Catholics have of the Madonna. Quran 5:116-120 And when Allah said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he said: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You know it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your Mind. Lo! You, only You, are the Knower of things hidden? I spake unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things. If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise. Allah said: This is a day in which their truthfulness profits the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure for ever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph. Unto Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and whatsoever is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

 

[Scimitar]

I was born and raised Catholic, but I don't know what I am now. I don't seem to fit well anywhere! I am one of those weird Christians I guess. I go to a non-demoninational church right now, but I am not sure I agree with everything the pastor believes. I have really gotten on the nerve of many a pastors asking about the Bible corruption and telling them they are intreperting this and that wrong; sometimes I had to leave the church to keep the peace. I didn't answer, sister, because i felt embarassed to say "I don't know what kind of Christian I am." Maybe you can tell me from my writings. I don't know if cult Christianity is going to heaven. No one in any church know what islam is about. I know more about it than any Christian I have meet in all the churches I have been to. I can tell you Islam as been stabbing pretty hard at my believe system all the same.

You have softenend my heart with this post so much bro, that i've actually got wet eyes and don't care who knows it.

I know one thing, you aren't alone... you are looking for truth, and I pray to God Almighty the Merciful that HE guides you to the correct way, Ameen.

Infact, I beleive HE already is.

Scimi

 

[Burninglight]

I personally believe that angels are spirits, but I have little understanding about what a spirit is other than that they exist in a different form than what I can perceive as a human. Others may correct me if I am wrong, but I don't necessarily see God as a 'Spirit' in the same sense that angels are. My understanding is that God exists in a dimension outside of His creation and that we humans have extremely little knowledge of His nature outside of what is revealed in the Quran including the descriptive names such as Rahmani, The Most Merciful, Ayatal Kursi 2:255, and the 'Light upon Light' verse 24:35.

Thanks for your response. You really seem knowlegable of Christianity. Yes, I believe angels are spirits, because it is Scriptural.
I believe God is the uncreated Spirit. I say He is Spirit because the Bible says so. I don't understand like you about spirits, but i believe we are also spirits but in a hamburger right now. lol, if you can put it that way. God is over all His creation and His word keeps it altogether. I am not sure what you mean outside of His creation, but I believe God interacts with us and His Spirit is in me. He is closer to us than our juglar.

I agree with you that this is the critical difference. You see that the gospel is not what Jesus said (as a messenger of God), but rather as what he did on the cross. The Quran 4:171 says, "...The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him... " This verse confirms Jesus as a messenger of God, but also includes the phrases 'His word' and 'a spirit from Him' which seems to confirm what you are saying. This concept is repeated in 66:12 "And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our spirit..." My limited understanding is that these verses refer to the supernatural aspect of Jesus coming into being, but I admit that I do not fully understand the meaning. These verses seem to support the Christian concept that Jesus is "God with us"; however, I leave it at what 3:59 says, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: 'Be!' and he is." .

Yes, your right it's about the work on the cross.
Jesus is the son of man, but since God spoke life into Mary, we have a very significant child here. You have a unique conception that has never happened before of after; The Bible is repelete with prophecy concerning this event such as "a child is given; a son is born; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; He shall be called Mighty God; Everlasting father; Prince of peace and the list goes on. We believe and stake our lives and souls on that Being Jesus who God calls His "Beloved Son in whom I am (He's) well please hear ye Him" What does Jesus say? "I am before Abraham; I am the way, truth and life; no one comes to God except through me; He that has seen me has seen the father; I and the father are one" It is not just what Jesus said in the NT it is what the OT confirms about Him.

It is impossible, IMO for the Bible to be corrupted to this degree. I am not able or willing to believe this because the Quran states that Allah made it appear that Jesus died. Why would Allah do such a thing knowing it was going to result in Christianity sending billions to hell??? I don't need to go to hate sites to have things bother me about a god like that. Besides, Allah is calling all testimonies, witnesses of Jesus death and resurrection liars in the Bible and even calling the Bible corrupted. Okay, I agree there are interpolations in the Bible and translational errors, but scholars know what they are, but the central message of the Bible still holds together inspite of it.

Even Dr. Erhman knows what has been added and taken away, but the rest he is not sure. One cannot say what he is not sure of is corruption. Muslims say anything in the Bible that disagrees with the Quran is corrupted. Okay, you can say that, but I don't believe the Quran is so pure either, because of Uthman's burning sessions. It just comes down to what we have the faith to believe. I don't have the faith to believe that jesus didn't die and rise from the dead.

Actually, I see the sending of the Quran and Islam to mankind through Muhammad (saaws) was a means of 'God reaching out to man' and in so doing reveals what His will is for us in how we live our lives. I am reminded of Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. The point here is that 'does the will of My Father' is an action verb, but the question remains, "What is the 'will of My Father' ?"

It is written the will of the father is to "Believe on Him whom He sent"

This point illustrates the 'works vs faith' struggle between those who preached following the Judaic Law like Peter and Jesus' other disciples and that of justification by faith in Jesus taught by Paul. This conflict is reflected in the book of Galatians.

I knew you were knowelagble. yes, Paul. The big battle is between Muhammad and Paul. An angel spoke to Muhammad; Jesus spoke to Paul

On this I agree with you.

If you agree with me, I must be wrong. lol, just joking bro ha, ha heeee

This is an interesting concept. I see that we will have to give an account for our lives and that, yes, we are imperfect creatures full of shortcomings. I also see that we can't do or be good enough to merit entrance into Heaven for there yet remains the intention behind whatever good that we did. In Islam the intention is extremely important in determining merit of a deed and who among us can judge his own heart? Christians always say things like 'God is JUST' or 'sin MUST be punished'. I also see that God is just, but also that He is merciful and that he is a forgiving God to some and a wrathful God to others. Christians limit God's mercy to a formula of Him becoming a human, living a perfect life, and dying on the cross as the only possible means for man's redemption from his sins. I see the means of attaining the mercy of God as having proper faith without ascribing partners with Him, obeying His will (following the Sunnah) including how we worship Him and how we interact with our fellow creatures, refraining from sin and disobedience as much as possible, and having pure intention of doing what we do for the sake of God. In the end we are yet at the mercy of Allah.

We understand that Jesus Christ is God's mercy. We understand He is theway to receive it. We believe trying any other way is not meeting God on His terms; we will have to then be responsible to pay for our own sin. Those that choose to pay for their own sin, do it for eternity

I don't see Satan as prosecuting attorney, but rather as codefendant in having tempted mankind into disobedience as in the Quran 14:22 And Satan said, when the matter has been decided: Lo! Allah promised you a promise of truth; and I promised you, then failed you. And I had no power over you save that I called unto you and you obeyed me. So blame not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me, Lo!..." We see Muhammad (saaws) as our defense attorney and as our mediator with Allah who will plead for mercy on behalf of those who followed him.

Satan tempts us to sin then he condemns us for doing it. The Bible says He is the "accuser of the saints." Jesus, makes intercession for us Christians.

Thank you for sharing your faith and it pretty well reflected my understanding of the Christian faith. We differ in our understanding of what it means to 'meet God on His terms'. The Islamic terms are pure faith in One God without ascribing partners and following the Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) which coincidentally reflects the shahadah and the Christian terms are faith in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God (also as God in human flesh) and accepting the free gift of salvation which was Jesus death on the cross as their redeeming sacrifice.

Yes, We shouldn't ascribe partners or associates unto God. I agree, however, I believe rejecting Jesus as our Savior is to reject God. Just like Deut 18 states from among your bretheren one will come Jesus fits that. Moses was made God and Aaron the spokesman Moses was savior for the children of Israel jesus Savior of the world, but we have to believe and recieve.

Yes, the self-proclaimed apostle/messenger to the Gentiles, Paul, wrote in Galatians 1:8-9, But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Self proclaimed? Jesus spoke to Paul rebuking him for consenting to the death of Christians. Paul is the glue in Christianity and he only points us to Jesus not himself.

Let's be honest, hopefully, without being offensive. Either Islam or Christianity is the true religion or the straight way that leads to salvation and the other is a false one devised by Satan to mislead mankind away from the straight way and into the Hellfire to join him. Both cannot be correct with one saying, "Jesus is the Son of God" and the other saying "Jesus is not the Son of God." In the same manner, the revelation that Paul claimed in Galatians 1:12 to have received directly from God or the revelation to Muhammad (saaws) Quran 3:7 is a true revelation and the other one is false. Likewise, either Paul or Muhammad (saaws) is a true prophet and messenger of God and the other is a false prophet in sheep's clothing. It is a matter of what we individually decide to believe and each of us will stand before God along with the choice we make.

Yes, both religions are mutually exclusive. It is even amazing that we Christians and Muslims can dialogue like this when you think of how diametrically opposed these believe systems are. Ironically we share all the same prophets with the exception of one.

I agree rather strongly with you, "May Satan be bound and we all be blessed with the knowledge of TRUTH."

Amen to that!

 

[Burninglight]

If I were you, I wouldn't be embarassed to not know what kind of Christian I am. I would rather prefer to say, "I am the kind of Christian that Peter, James, Stephen and Barnabas were."

You are right, I believe the Lord is speaking through you to me. I am a Christian like Peter was. Thank you, you have identified me! For God had told me in my youth my name shall be called Peter.

 

[Burninglight]

This passage came to my mind. Though Christians don't see that they worship Mary, Muslims see that they do with the 'Hail Mary, Mother of God' and with the statues that Catholics have of the Madonna. Quran 5:116-120 And when Allah said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he said: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You know it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your Mind. Lo! You, only You, are the Knower of things hidden? I spake unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things. If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise. Allah said: This is a day in which their truthfulness profits the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure for ever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph. Unto Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and whatsoever is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

In another place Allah also says "say not three" Since Allah never mentions the Holy Spirit, was his understanding of the three the father (God), Mary (the Mother) & Jesus (the Son)? I don't see in the Quran were there is an understanding of early Christian doctrine and belief of what the Scripture identify as God's nature. Catholics pray to Mary till this day; they call her "The mother of God" Even the "Virgin of Guadalupe" and queen of heaven, but no where did the early church consider her the mother of God much less God nor did they pray to her or the saints. Not even the Catholics considered Mary to be God so why would Allah ask Jesus about him saying "Did you say take me and my mother (Mary) for two gods beside Allah?" and not mention the the Holy Spirit in that passage or anywhere in the Quran who is one of the three persons of the deity? WADR, this causes me not to take this verse from the Quran seriously. Christians have always believed the Holy Spirit is God even Catholics believe that. No Christians ever believe in 4 persons of the Godhead. I see this as a discrepancy. Maybe Uthman left out some scripture while recompiling the Quran, but if he didn't, than I have a major issue with that. IOW, if Mary were a god and jesus was a god and Allah is god what happened to the Holy Spirit who is God? Do you see my point or not? This hasn't been addressed clearly to me yet. BTW, I don't see myself a slave of God. Jesus said, "I call you friends? We are free ss Isaac was free born. Hagar was the bond woman with Ishmael

 

[Aprender]

He is closer to us than our juglar.

Mmhmm. This particular reference is in the Quran.

I can tell you Islam as been stabbing pretty hard at my believe system all the same.

And what exactly is it about Islam do you think that is stabbing pretty hard at you? What is it that attracts you to this way of life?

 

[MustafaMc]

Thanks for your response. You really seem knowlegable of Christianity.

You are welcome. I was a Christian and I have studied a little. Interestingly, I decided to reread the NT after I decided to start practicing Islam again in June 2001. That is when I came to understand Galatians as I do now. It was like I read it for the first time even though I am sure I read it when I was in college and was a practicing Christian as a member of the Church of Christ.

I don't understand like you about spirits, but i believe we are also spirits but in a hamburger right now. lol, if you can put it that way. God is over all His creation and His word keeps it altogether. I am not sure what you mean outside of His creation, but I believe God interacts with us and His Spirit is in me. He is closer to us than our juglar.

Yes, I believe our soul is like a spirit within our bodies. What I mean by God being outside of His creation is that I see God as not being constrained to the dimensions of space and time like we are. I don't see that God is everywhere at once except in His Knowledge. This is different from the Christian concept of the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. My understanding of God being closer to us than our juglar is that He knows our innermost secrets and our intentions for every deed. My understanding of our existence as compared to that of God can be likened to a fish aquarium with the sides made of 1-way mirror. We swim around and eat the food that is sprinkled in from above, but we can't see who it is that brings us that food. We need this other 'Being', but He does not need us. He knows our nature and how to take care of us, but we don't know His nature. He can see us through the 1-way glass of the aquarium, but we can't see Him.

Jesus is the son of man, but since God spoke life into Mary, we have a very significant child here. You have a unique conception that has never happened before of after;

You are right that Jesus is a unique human being and I have often wondered about his nature. I have come to the conclusion that it is something that I can't understand and just leave it at what the Quran says.

The Bible is repelete with prophecy concerning this event such as "a child is given; a son is born; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; .... It is not just what Jesus said in the NT it is what the OT confirms about Him.

There are verses in the OT that can be interpreted as refering to Jesus. We, too, believe that Jesus will return to reign during the Last Days as the Messiah, or Annointed One.

It is impossible, IMO for the Bible to be corrupted to this degree. I am not able or willing to believe this because the Quran states that Allah made it appear that Jesus died. Why would Allah do such a thing knowing it was going to result in Christianity sending billions to hell??? I don't need to go to hate sites to have things bother me about a god like that. Besides, Allah is calling all testimonies, witnesses of Jesus death and resurrection liars in the Bible and even calling the Bible corrupted.

Quran 4:157 states, And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucfied him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. Yes, Jesus' origins and his death (or apparent death) are puzzles to me too. Having been a Christian I know what it is like to believe that Jesus was 'God with us' and I feel that I was sincere in my faith. I believe in a merciful God and I believe that He is also Just. I am brought again to what the Quran quotes Jesus as saying to Allah in 5:118 If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, art the Mighty, the Wise. If you can for a moment consider my situation and then my leaving in Allah's Hand the difficult question you vocalized that to a point is also inside my heart. To my knowledge, I am the only person in my entire family that has ever existed who is a Muslim, except for my wife. My parents and grandparents have died as Christians. My brother and sister and their children are all Christians. My only child is agnostic. You see the question 'Why would Allah do such a thing?' is very personal to me and it would surely drive me crazy or to unbelief if I dwelled upon it. On this I choose to leave it alone.

I don't believe the Quran is so pure either, because of Uthman's burning sessions. It just comes down to what we have the faith to believe.

If it weren't for the facts that 1) Uthman returned to the original manuscript that was complied under Abu Bakr's leadership, 2) many of the first Muslims memorized the entire Quran, and 3) the entire Quran (at least as much as had been revealed at that time) was recited by Muhammad (saaws) every year during Ramadhan, I would agree that the burning of Quran by Uthman would leave doubt about the authenticity of what we have now. One thing to remember is that Abu Bakr, Umar, Utnman and Ali were all companions of Muhammad (saaws) and there was no disagreement among them regarding what the Quran was or the accuracy of the manuscript in their hands.

Yes, We shouldn't ascribe partners or associates unto God. I agree, however, I believe rejecting Jesus as our Savior is to reject God.

It is eery that my mother used almost these except words in the later sentence regarding me.

Self proclaimed?

As Paul wrote in Galatians 2:7-8 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles) Confirmation of this claim is not made (to my knowledge) by Jesus' disciples. In fact Paul was not even qualified to be an apostle to anyone as the disciples laid out the criteria in Acts 1:21-22. It was important to them that the person replacing Judas should have witnessed the entirety of Jesus' ministry from the day of his baptism until his ascension. The point is that the disciples preached what Jesus said and did while he walked on earth, while Paul preached faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. I think you would agree that there was a spiritual struggle here and the fate of this struggle was sealed with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Another question is 'Why God allowed this struggle to end as it did?' My opinion is reflected by none other than Bart Ehrman in "Lost Christianities" when he wrote, "Had it (proto-orthodox Christianity) not happened, one could argue, the vast majority of people in the world who adhere to Christianity - some two billion by some recent estimates, the largest religion on the planet - would still be pagans, adhering to one or another polytheistic religion." You are an example IMO of what is good in Christianity.

Yes, both religions are mutually exclusive. It is even amazing that we Christians and Muslims can dialogue like this when you think of how diametrically opposed these believe systems are. Ironically we share all the same prophets with the exception of one.

What you wrote reminded me of Quran 5:82 ... And you will find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. Our differences seem large, but they can be boiled down to the deity of Jesus and the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws). In the end we make our choice then we live and die with the consequences thereof.

 

[Burninglight]

Mmhmm. This particular reference is in the Quran.

It seems Islam has had some infleuence on me then uhmmmmmm?

And what exactly is it about Islam do you think that is stabbing pretty hard at you?

Do I have to tell? Okay, for one. I never knew about the Bible problems until I had dealing with Islam. So Islam has shattered some of the ways I look at the Bible, but not the way I see Jesus.

What is it that attracts you to this way of life?

People like those on the forum here. I have spoken with Muslim on youtube that have called me evey name in the book and every curse. You don't do that, and that attracts me to the religion also. I am learning new things I never knew about it. I want to lean more to be convince completely that it is not for me and help others see why I feel that way to give them a chance to explain why I am right or wrong. It is because I believe Islam is a very big powerful world religion it is not a cult like some people say. I like learning about it so I can tell people in my Christian community where they are wrong in there understanding of Islam. they think all Muslim are terrorist. I have to explain that they have preconceived ideas that they need to forget. I have influence in my community on people. I get angry when I hear someone say something that is not true about Islam or Christianity, but I will pull no punches when it comes to what is true. I can be a ****h finding things out. I have almost made pastors want to leave the pulpit because I challenge them on their views of the Bible. I can be wrong, but I am some what strongwilled. When I am convince something is true, I an tenacious as a pit bull. I lock on until something gives

 

[MustafaMc]

In another place Allah also says "say not three" Since Allah never mentions the Holy Spirit, was his understanding of the three the father (God), Mary (the Mother) & Jesus (the Son)? I don't see in the Quran were there is an understanding of early Christian doctrine and belief of what the Scripture identify as God's nature.

No the 'three' are not defined in the Quran though it seems that Mary is portrayed as that third element as you indicated. The Quran 9:31 says They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! But, you may say, "Wait we Christians don't worship these people!" To Muslims the Catholic confessional that begins, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned." and their praying to the patron saints is a form of worship that should be reserved for Allah. The same applies to Mary. Muslims see that the Holy Spirit refers to the Angel Gabriel as indicated in the Quran.

Catholics pray to Mary till this day; they call her "The mother of God" Even the "Virgin of Guadalupe" and queen of heaven, but no where did the early church consider her the mother of God much less God nor did they pray to her or the saints. Not even the Catholics considered Mary to be God so why would Allah ask Jesus about him saying "Did you say take me and my mother (Mary) for two gods beside Allah?" and not mention the the Holy Spirit in that passage or anywhere in the Quran who is one of the three persons of the deity? WADR, this causes me not to take this verse from the Quran seriously. Christians have always believed the Holy Spirit is God even Catholics believe that. No Christians ever believe in 4 persons of the Godhead. I see this as a discrepancy. Maybe Uthman left out some scripture while recompiling the Quran, but if he didn't, than I have a major issue with that. IOW, if Mary were a god and jesus was a god and Allah is god what happened to the Holy Spirit who is God? Do you see my point or not? This hasn't been addressed clearly to me yet.

catholic.org says this about patron saints, "Patron saints are chosen as special protectors or guardians over areas of life. These areas can include occupations, illnesses, churches, countries, causes -- anything that is important to us." All of these areas of our lives are under the protection and guardianship of none other than Allah (swt) and to say otherwise is shirk.

BTW, I don't see myself a slave of God. Jesus said, "I call you friends? We are free ss Isaac was free born. Hagar was the bond woman with Ishmael

Yes, you see yourself as a son of God; whereas, I strive to be a servant of Allah as Jesus was referred to in Acts 3:13 (NASB, NIV).

 

[Burninglight]

My opinion is reflected by none other than Bart Ehrman in "Lost Christianities" when he wrote, "Had it (proto-orthodox Christianity) not happened, one could argue, the vast majority of people in the world who adhere to Christianity - some two billion by some recent estimates, the largest religion on the planet - would still be pagans, adhering to one or another polytheistic religion." You are an example IMO of what is good in Christianity.
What you wrote reminded me of Quran 5:82 ... And you will find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. Our differences seem large, but they can be boiled down to the deity of Jesus and the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws). In the end we make our choice then we live and die with the consequences thereof.

I am not sure what Erhman means by that quote or if I agree that is all it boils down to Jesus and Muhammad, but it is the biggest issue. So, what convinced you to be a Muslim really especially when all your family are Chrisitans?

 

[Who Am I?]

I guess I'm jumping into this late.

I was raised as a Christian. I went to church as a kid and was educated in Christian schools in grades K-12. I learned all of the Bible stories. I memorized Scripture. I did all of the things that was expected of me as a Christian. I prayed to accept Jesus at a young age and "rededicated" my life to Christ several times as I grew older.

Anyway, despite all of this, I never really felt like I belonged anywhere. I never felt at peace with myself. I never really wanted to be a better man. I became disillusioned with the hypocrisy that I witnessed in the church. Eventually I rejected all religion and became an atheist for a time in my 20's.

I have struggled with self-esteem issues for a long time, and it was one reason that I never really felt like I belonged anywhere. I turned to alcohol and drugs for comfort. Eventually I finally realized that I couldn't live my life this way, and I began to search for the truth. This search led me to Islam.

I read Qur'an, and I still read my Bible. There are still a lot of good truths in the Bible, and I still respect my Christian background even though I don't believe that modern Christianity is the truth. I believe that Jesus was a great man who did great things. I believe that Jesus performed miracles and was a prophet and messenger of God. But I don't believe that Jesus was God.

 

[Burninglight]

No the 'three' are not defined in the Quran though it seems that Mary is portrayed as that third element as you indicated. The Quran 9:31 says They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! But, you may say, "Wait we Christians don't worship these people!" To Muslims the Catholic confessional that begins, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned." and their praying to the patron saints is a form of worship that should be reserved for Allah. The same applies to Mary. Muslims see that the Holy Spirit refers to the Angel Gabriel as indicated in the Quran.

Okay, then even if he said we Christians worship the angel Jibril, that would have shown me there was an understanding of what Christians believe.

catholic.org says this about patron saints, "Patron saints are chosen as special protectors or guardians over areas of life. These areas can include occupations, illnesses, churches, countries, causes -- anything that is important to us." All of these areas of our lives are under the protection and guardianship of none other than Allah (swt) and to say otherwise is shirk.

That would be sin to me as well!

Yes, you see yourself as a son of God; whereas, I strive to be a servant of Allah as Jesus was referred to in Acts 3:13 (NASB, NIV).

It almost make me look proud and you humble, but I don't mean that in a proud way. I am as servant/friend too in the right connotation they are both right. Jesus was a servant of his disciples, and we are to be to each other. Jesus washed their feet. "For the greatest among you will be your servant" We were servants but Jesus said we are now friends. Act 3:13 says that God exalted his servant Jesus so now that changed His status as it does ours to know God and make Him own.

 

[Aprender]

I know you don't Aprender. lol, your question is funny here. Why should the Christians back then go to hell? If they didn't believe Jesus is the son of God, they wouldn't be Christians. They would be Jews or Muslims or some other type of theist, but not Christian. To be a Christian one must have Jesus in there heart, and believe He is who he says he is in the Bible.

I wanted to address more here but I'll have to come back later, in shaa Allah. Early Christians would have been Jewish-Christians, not Muslims. And that is the definition of Christianity as you know it today, but back then that's not what it used to be. Earlier forms of Christian sects had different books of the bible that said different things about Jesus(pbuh) and different sets of beliefs that don't fit with what is now known as modern Christianity but these people still called themselves Christians. That's why I asked this question.

Excerpt from "Lost Christianities"
The Varieties of Ancient Christianity
The wide diversity of early Christianity may be seen above all in the theological beliefs embraced by people who understood themselves to be followers of Jesus. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in one God. But there were others who insisted that there were two. Some said there were thirty. Others claimed there were 365.

In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that the Jewish Scripture (the Christian “Old Testament”) was inspired by the one true God. Others believed it was inspired by the God of the Jews, who was not the one true God. Others believed it was inspired by an evil deity. Others believed it was not inspired.

In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that Jesus’ death brought about the salvation of the world. There were other Christians who thought that Jesus’ death had nothing to do with the salvation of the world. There were yet other Christians who said that Jesus never died.

Also, I have been looking at your posts and when you refer to Allah (swt) you write he but when you refer to Jesus, you write he even though earlier you said that

God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives.

The first part of that is the shahada.

And you said that you believe Jesus (pbuh) is just your defense attorney. So why do you refer to God with a lesser amount of respect than you do for Jesus(pbuh) when he is your defense attorney? In some of your posts you write He in reference to Jesus (pbuh) but he for God/Allah (swt). Just trying to get a better grasp from where you are coming from. That part I didn't quite understand. I just want to make sure I understand you completely so as not to make any assumptions and for more clarity. So you don't believe that Jesus is the begotten son of God, but you believe that he died for your sins? Correct?

Here is that book written by James about his brother Jesus (pbuh) I was telling you about that wasn't included in the bible. In it he didn't believe his brother was divine and because of this it wasn't included in what we have today in the Bible because it didn't correlate with the newer teachings that were put together.