Martyrdom
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wilberhum
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This thing as really went south.
That is not what I intended at all.
I wasn’t trying to get into the world of the suicide bomber or any of that.
The article I quoted, as short as it was, was all of it.
The Pilots were assumedly just flying around doing there job. The paper called them Martyrs.
Simple question. Do you think they are Martyrs?
Yes or no are valid answers.
Long quotes that don’t contain yes or no are not valid answers.
Another question. A child is walking down the street. On his way to a store. He gets hit by a stray bullet.
Do you think he is a Marty?
Again, Yes or no are valid answers. Long quotes that don’t contain yes or no are not valid answers.
Yes or no answers would be appreciated.
That is not what I intended at all.
I wasn’t trying to get into the world of the suicide bomber or any of that.
The article I quoted, as short as it was, was all of it.
The Pilots were assumedly just flying around doing there job. The paper called them Martyrs.
Simple question. Do you think they are Martyrs?
Yes or no are valid answers.
Long quotes that don’t contain yes or no are not valid answers.
Another question. A child is walking down the street. On his way to a store. He gets hit by a stray bullet.
Do you think he is a Marty?
Again, Yes or no are valid answers. Long quotes that don’t contain yes or no are not valid answers.
Yes or no answers would be appreciated.
islamirama
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It does not matter what we think. If they were patrolling around for the safety of the nation and crashed in the process, then we can say Inshallah (God willing) may they be among the matyrs. But at end of the Day, it is really Allah who decides whom to accept as a matyr and whom not to.
wilberhum
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I figured you would be the frist to post and of course you did not answer.
I guess you only answer "Why I hate my country" questions.
hola,
i think it would be better if islamic words simply remained as they are rather than trying to equate them with purely christian concepts. so shaheed instead of the Christian word 'martyr' otherwise it confuses people and implies things that are not true.
que Dios te bendiga
wilberhum
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So is that a yes or a no? Or didn't you understand my request or did you chose to ignore it?
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hola
i didn't understand your request... i thought it was just a rhetorical question to discuss what the idea means in islam. as far as i can discern i am just as confused as you... i just know it doesn't really correlate to the christian concept and would prefer that in common parlance the ideas were separated.
que Dios te bendiga
wilberhum
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Woodrow
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to try to answer this in a simple yes or no. In accordance with the English definition of Martyr, the answer is no.
They may be shaheeds, but only Allaah(swt) knows for certain. Shaheed is often translated into the English word martyr, but it is not a full or true translation as the concept of Shaheed carries additional qualities that are not found in the word Martyr.
They may be shaheeds, but only Allaah(swt) knows for certain. Shaheed is often translated into the English word martyr, but it is not a full or true translation as the concept of Shaheed carries additional qualities that are not found in the word Martyr.
جوري
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peace--
you couldn't possibly expect an answer to a Q of that nature.. even the most pious people don't know where they are going... we can only state what we know based on info we are given... i.e to die battling, 'battling cancer, battling the waves, battling an enemy is to die 'martyred'-- deeds and intent lie with God..we don't know who went out to the ocean to find the golden pearl and died while on a greedy acquisition..who died battling cancer but in reality brought it upon his or herself out of 35 yrs of smoking and ending up with small cell ca. who went out to battle but only to seek glory..if that were the case we'd be funneling people to heaven or hell exalting some to saints and ****ing others, but it isn't up to us and--- Thank God for that as we tend to be faultfinding creatures aren't we?
cheers!
Woodrow
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Hola Senora,
The extra qualities I speak of are a bit intangible, what it means is that a person who dies for the love of Allaah(swt) could be a Shaheed. There are some specific examples given in the various hadith, such as a pious person drowning etc. The word Martyr would not define that person a martyr, but in Arabic the person could be a Shaheed.
Martyr quite often does = Shaheed, but the words are not fully interchangeable. There are people who would meet the definition of martyr, but they would not be shaheeds and some people may meet the Arabic concept of Shaheed but would not meet the definition for martyr.
So the confusion is the 2 words are similar, but not interchangeable under all conditions.
hola,
si i agree there is overlap. but the activities and ultimate significance of a shaheed are often dramatically different from the Christian martyr. there are martyr soldiers, for instance, but they are not regarded as holy for having fought. that war component very often means they have broken from the way Christ intended. i do not know if you have seen the movie "the Mission" but it is the difference between jeremy irons character and robert de niros.
furthermore, there are issues regarding miracles, intercession and the conditions of martyrdom at the time which are significantly tied to sainthood, a facet that islam does not have. there might be some overlap, but these concepts are not the same by any stretch of the imagination... it is harmful to equate them.
que Dios te bendiga
Grace Seeker
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The word marytr in English has come to mean someone who dies for a cause. But the English origins of the word are taken from the context of the persecutions of early Christians by Roman authorities. During a time when being a Christian was understoond by Roman authorities as being synonymous with being an atheist (because Christians did NOT believe in the Roman gods), and such activity was outlawed, Christians were often arrested and put on trial for this crime. Some denied that they were Christians and were set free. Roman law kept people from being put to death without the testimony of witnesses and so simply by being silent many Christians avoided death unless some third party could be brought forward to testify against them. Other Christians, however, actually bore witness against themselves, testifying that they were Christians in open court knowing that the penalty would be death.
Most of these trials did not actually take place in Rome, but in the Greek-speaking portions of the Roman Empire. The term martyr comes from the Greek word "μάρτυς" (martus), meaning "witness" -- one who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation.
In the context of that time, the term martus came to be used in the sense of a witness who at any time might be called upon to deny what he testified to, under penalty of death. From this stage the transition was easy to the meaning of the term, as used ever since of a martyr as a person who is so firmly convinced of the truths of his position (in present times it can be any cause, though historically it was exclusive to the Christian faith) that he gladly suffers death rather than deny it.
But from Wikipedia, I add this:
So, given this, one might understand how in an Arabic speaking-culture, where the English word "martyr" may not actually be equivalent to Arabic thought, even in the Christian community, that in translating out of Arabic into English any Muslim who dies in relation to Islam or the Islamic community might be described as a "martyr" by simply using the same common term.
Isn't language grand!!
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al-muslimah
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How can they be shuhada it depends on their intention.All shia in Iran say anyone who dies there is a shaheed. I can understand someone from ahlul sunnah saying this but a rafidhi. If they do die as an innovator and as people who curse the sahaba how are they shuhada(martyrs)?Someone who dies in jihad fe sabilillah is a shaheed and there are also other types like a muslim who drowns, burns, a woman who dies in childbirth, someone with a skin disease(lukimia,leprosy), someone who dies in a plague like many of the sahaba such as Abu Ubaidah bin Jarrah and Muadh bin Jabal but first of all they have to be from ahlul sunnah, with sound aqeeda, and not an innovator.
That's really a great question.
Perception is everything, of course, but I've always understood martyrdom to be based on dying for "the cause" at the hands of others...not the self-inflicted variety.
There's all sorts of honor accorded those who willingly lay down their lives in defense of (insert cause here)...the ultimate sacrifice.
I'd guess that's the mainstream opinion as well, at least in western societies, where I was raised and now live.
The idea of being or not being afraid to die is an interesting one I think. Nature has preprogrammed successful animals with a desire to survive, and once you add our ability to have a sentient perception of death, you have a formula for a more deep seated fear (at least, one that can be expressed by doing something more than just fleeing, like all other animals do).
Suicide on the other hand, is taught to be the "coward's way out" and, from the theists' points of view, the usurpation of god's role in taking something that isn't really "yours". To commit suicide in a fashion that also takes the lives of other innocents is, of course, abhorrent to all societies...except fundamentalist jihadis.
While they certainly didn't invent suicide bombing as a tactic, jihadis are the ones saying these heinous crimes are legitimate, even honorable and praiseworthy, simply because they have changed the definition of mass murder/suicide to martyrdom.
We all fear death yes, since no one knows what lies beyond that event...if anything. (Truth be known, I'll bet every fetus is scared xxxxless at the idea of birth, for the same reasons). Most likely death is simply "nothing", but that is as peaceful an eternity as any promised by religion.
barney
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As for the OP, i think the Phantom jockey was deemed a Shaheed because he was engaged in defending his country...even if he wasnt on active service, warfighting.
It reminds me, although its totally different, of the UK press who will call any Soldier that dies, a "hero".
They may have fallen out of a lorry delivering sandwiches to Whitby, but they are "Hero's".
The Hero is the soldier who dies or is wounded, fighting for his country, or protecting his freind and doing some act of exceptional bravery.
For example. The crew of a Nimrod AWACS died after a fuel pipe burst mid-air.
They hadnt taken enemy fire, they didnt steer the plane away from a urban area. They just died.
now i know it's tragic, and yeah they were on active service, but to call everyone in uniform a Hero belittles those who do real courageous acts, such as defusing a bomb in a kosovan school, or evacuating muslim women and kids under serbian gunfire whilst not being able to reply.
Thats my 2 pence.
It reminds me, although its totally different, of the UK press who will call any Soldier that dies, a "hero".
They may have fallen out of a lorry delivering sandwiches to Whitby, but they are "Hero's".
The Hero is the soldier who dies or is wounded, fighting for his country, or protecting his freind and doing some act of exceptional bravery.
For example. The crew of a Nimrod AWACS died after a fuel pipe burst mid-air.
They hadnt taken enemy fire, they didnt steer the plane away from a urban area. They just died.
now i know it's tragic, and yeah they were on active service, but to call everyone in uniform a Hero belittles those who do real courageous acts, such as defusing a bomb in a kosovan school, or evacuating muslim women and kids under serbian gunfire whilst not being able to reply.
Thats my 2 pence.