Mathematical Structure?

[Rabi Mansur]

If I was promoting the Greek Bible like you assume, I would tell you the passage where it was from. But I didn't, especially since it stirs up the waters with Islamic beliefs a little. I am using it as an example of what I am trying to find in the Qur'an.

I recognize the passage as Mark 16:9-19. Also known in biblical scholarship circles as the longer ending of Mark. It is my understanding that the shorter ending has more acceptance among the experts so it is debateable whether this passage was really part of the original or if added years later. But for the sake of argument let's say it is original.

Also, you added the "Amen" at the end which I don't see in my Greek New Testament as being part of the text. Does that affect the numerical miracle?

I used to study Greek when I was in the process of losing my prior religion and still try to read the NT in the original from time to time.

I don't really know what to think about the mathematical miracle argument but your passage is quite interesting. I will make note of it in my text the next time I read Mark.

The "Qur'an Only" group in Tucson did quite a bit of study on the Qur'an's numerical miracles but they are not accepted so much in mainstream Islam from what I can tell. They published a translation of the Qur'an called "The Final Testament" which you might find interesting that shows the text tends to revolve around the number 19.

My former religion was Mormonism and I can tell you that Mormon scholars claim there are a number of "linguistic proofs" in the book of Mormon to prove it is an ancient inspired text. It seems to me that humans tend to find what they are looking for in any religious text.

However, the Qur'an and Bible miracles are more impressive than what Mormon scholars claim for their text. Perhaps the real proof of whether God inspired a scripture is the effect it has on mankind. There is no doubt that the Qur'an and Bible have changed the world. One advantage the Qur'an has over the Bible is the Qur'an has not changed and there are not multiple readings or passages such as are in the Bible. It was given straight from Jibreel to Muhammad (PBUH).

:wa:

 

[mattqatsi]

You most certainly did not come here to ask and enquire. If you did, you would have tried to at least to provide adequate response to the first few posts that sis Lily and I have made instead of repeatedly saying "oh, those numbers are no miracles" or "oh, to write the Qur'an is not near impossible".
Most people are not as gullible as you'd think.

Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Surah Baqara 2:7

I tried, and failed, so I'll come back a little later with a full-blown explanation. Please please please please please look at things from my perspective for one second. Before passing another inkling of judgment, please look at things through my eyes. Say you believe something and you've found what you consider to be a human impossibility in an ancient text. You want to know if there are more of these floating around religious literature or not, so you visit the site of another faith you know a lot about. You go there not to disprove even though you are firmly set in your own faith, but you go there to try and find incredible things in other faiths since you love studying religions and their impact on the world and beginnings from it. You know that what you found might be volitile in this environment so you first try to use a safe example. That doesn't work as the people who respond misinterpret what you're looking for. So you whip out a portion of what you have because you're looking for an equivalent or something similar. And all you get is judgment for not liking ridiculous answers and you get accused of proselytizing. The example was necessary but no one understands it and now you're only getting flak and not loving requests for clarification...

If this is an honest inquiry (which it is) imagine what it must look like from my perspective and how you're treating someone who is trying to pursue truth. I'm sorry for not clarifying, but you all immediately judge because I brought in the Bible. I'm not saying you should accept it immediately because of these facts, but I had to try to explain what I was looking for somehow.

 

[mattqatsi]

You came here boasting 'numerical miracles' 'numerical miracles' were offered you, you decided they weren't good enough for you, but in the process failed to show how what you have posted is in fact 'miraculous'? so I'd say it is quite relevant to the topic and your own credibility!

I came here looking for them, not trying to boast the ones I have found. Before passing judgment, look at it like this, please, I beg you. I came looking for a specific type of miracle, one which I didn't fully explain, which is my bad, but it's not an idea that is easy to get across. If I hadn't done the research myself, I'd probably have the same confused look on my face. I said that what was provided was not miraculous not to try and flaunt what I call Holy, I'm honestly not rubbing it in your face, or at least trying not to, but what was provided was inadequate. Why?
Before passing judgment and saying I'm a blind missionary, please try to see these as they really are, not just that they're true because I, a questioning non-Muslim, don't see them as miracles. Honestly look at these and tell me if the vast majority are "miracles," they are interesting textual/poetic devices, sure, but are they really impossible to forge by human hands? I mean, if you ask me, I'll go through them all, but the prevalence of the number 19 or other "miracles" as you described are not impossible to write. If the repeated, varied use of a number proved something, then using that same logic, the Bible should be beyond infallible because of how the number 7 crosses over the entire thing. You know, 7 days of creation, 7 trumpets of angels during the end times, 7 Holy days, everything is related to the number seven in there. But that's not a valid defense of the Bible (the argument I gave was a little different, but I'll try to explain that.) I could write a story about kingdoms and generations and stick the number 15 everywhere. I could write a chapter with 15 lines, or use sentences with 15 words. It could have 15 chapters. What I'm trying to say is that a lot of this is interesting, but it's not a miracle. Like I said earlier, I'm not saying I could write the Qur'an, it is a work vastly superior to my writing skills but on the side of mathematics, it isn't too special.

What is the significance of the 'heptadic seal'? a 'miracle' by definition is something where the natural laws of physics are suspended, so in the beginning and end I fail to see how what you post is 'miraculous' at all, but the OT doesn't recognize 'Yeshua' as god, if they did would they have remained Jews?

I'll explain how this heptadic seal is "miraculous" or relevant or what it even is later on in a future post. But when you finally grasp what I mean, hopefully you won't be as bitter towards me because it will at least make sense. Also, about the Jews, that is an answer found in the Bible, and it is a cohesive answer at that, not just a rationalization. Without going into any depth at all, at least right now, I'll just say that the answer is similar to the Qur'an's verse about Allah hardening the hearts of unbelievers, except this is a little less judgmental in an encompassing manner.

Yes go ahead and explain them and show us how they are superior to similar style text!

I will explain some in a future post, but before I do, you missed my point. The "similar style text" portion of my post was trying to say that that is why I'm here, to find the similar ones, not to disprove, but to find.

lol.. staying on topic? this is coming from a guy who speaks of 'miracles' and then fails to validate them, on of the things you make mention of above using the 'OT' is the arrival of 'Yeshua' in Jerusalem, I believe my above quote deals directly with that, the Yeshua that has arrived isn't the one that the 'OT' predicted they don't recognize your god as a god, messenger or even the one spoken of in their text!
a terrible dilemma for you to try to 'prove something miraculous' using the very text that doesn't even recognize your god to even be of david's lineage! woops :hmm:

Yes, staying on topic. I didn't come here to prove Christ's Divinity, but to inquire about math. Please try and understand that I'm only using an example to help prove what I was looking for. Going off topic would be going into something non-math related, like the absolute rubbish and uninformed response you gave me about Yeshua. Sorry, but that's totally unrelated right now and just totally wrong in general. If you want, please create a thread about it and I'll answer you there but don't try and derail this thread. You could be a shining light for the perceived superiority of your faith instead of an example of a judgmental heckler.
Also, that line about Yeshua not being of David's lineage? You have got to be kidding me, that makes me sick to my stomach because of the absolute lengths the Bible went to to show that He was of the lineage of David. Heck, that's even why there's two genealogies, for that specific reason (and no, they are not contradictory like many believe.) Are you the sort of person who will call a white wall black? Because you just did the equivalent of saying the exact opposite of how things are.

It has actually been answered repeatedly, you not liking the response given in favor of your brand gibber doesn't denote that the answer is more than adequate!

No, no, it honestly hasn't. Either tomorrow or the next day I'll go through every argument to show how it isn't satisfactory at all, even from a rational side.

Sure I do, go ahead!.. and I don't think you came to inquire. I can't classify your puerile style under any category but I wouldn't call it inquiry.. it is ridiculous style carpet bombing maybe but using an ineffective BB gun

Bask in your clever wit because it makes an effective witness. Sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but I'm not carpet bombing, I was showing something as an example of what I'm looking for. I'll explain better because this is more of a nuclear bomb than anything, but I'm not trying to activate the nuke, I'm trying to see who else is packing heat and if anyone has anything bigger.

I don't actually put the Quran and the bible at all in the same category. The Quran is the unerring word of god, while the bible is of dubious authors as per staunch conservative biblical scholars and wrought with errors all throughout. If anything at all it can be made comprable to hadith and even with hadith has a proper chain of isnad and can be related directly and historically, again something missing from your bibles!

I'm going to ignore this because it's just asking for a fight. But please please trust me that those are rampant misconceptions. I used to think that too but then I looked into the "contradictions" of the Bible and found something more interesting, something that held up against %100 of accusations. Seriously, any perceived contradiction can easily be resolved. When I bring up Qur'anic contradictions, people just say "nothing contradicts in the original arabic" which is still untrue. I have not really insulted the Quran throughout this, please don't insult mine unless you want an e-fight. Rampant. Misconceptions.

I thought you'd subscribed to a serious institution to seek such knowledge? people don't learn on web blogs!

ummmm... they can and I havn't started the classes yet. I came looking for pointers and I came to a place where multiple people congregate so I can get pointers to resources that some may not know of.

We don't know what 'seals' mean as per your understanding, and you have failed to establish how they are 'miraculous' in nature as per what you have presented.

Once again, I'll explain later so you can see what I'm looking for.

 

[mattqatsi]

I recognize the passage as Mark 16:9-19. Also known in biblical scholarship circles as the longer ending of Mark. It is my understanding that the shorter ending has more acceptance among the experts so it is debateable whether this passage was really part of the original or if added years later. But for the sake of argument let's say it is original.

It is still debated but since when has anything in this world been resolved?

Also, you added the "Amen" at the end which I don't see in my Greek New Testament as being part of the text. Does that affect the numerical miracle?

Whoa, thanks for catching that. I just grabbed this from a quick Textus Receptus copy and didn't notice that (my notes are handwritten.) Yeah it does change things, the Amen is not in what I examined.

I used to study Greek when I was in the process of losing my prior religion and still try to read the NT in the original from time to time.

wow, that's amazing, I'm struggling to get along but it's a fascinating language so far.

I don't really know what to think about the mathematical miracle argument but your passage is quite interesting. I will make note of it in my text the next time I read Mark.

I got it from this book written in the 1800s, it's a really simple, easy book (numbered paragraphs, etc) so look through it, it has info on other portions of Mark as well. The guy who wrote it is a genius, Ivan Panin, but no one knows of him (or ironically enough been able to disprove him, he's just ignored nowadays.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ol...&resnum=5&ved=0CCYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The "Qur'an Only" group in Tucson did quite a bit of study on the Qur'an's numerical miracles but they are not accepted so much in mainstream Islam from what I can tell. They published a translation of the Qur'an called "The Final Testament" which you might find interesting that shows the text tends to revolve around the number 19.

Once I awake for the day later on today I'm heading off to the library to find this book. Thank you, this may help and be what I'm actually looking for.

My former religion was Mormonism and I can tell you that Mormon scholars claim there are a number of "linguistic proofs" in the book of Mormon to prove it is an ancient inspired text. It seems to me that humans tend to find what they are looking for in any religious text.

Would you happen to have any resources on that? Maybe that will help me skip the Mormon forums. Everyone has their defense, but few actually hold up once the waters are tested.

However, the Qur'an and Bible miracles are more impressive than what Mormon scholars claim for their text. Perhaps the real proof of whether God inspired a scripture is the effect it has on mankind. There is no doubt that the Qur'an and Bible have changed the world. One advantage the Qur'an has over the Bible is the Qur'an has not changed and there are not multiple readings or passages such as are in the Bible. It was given straight from Jibreel to Muhammad (PBUH).

I agree with the first part but not the second, but I don't want to light a fuse for heated debate.

But thanks for pointing me in that direction, ("Final Testament") this should really help, hopefully

 

[جوري]

Once again, I'll explain later so you can see what I'm looking for.

So what I am to understand from this bulky exigent logorrhea is that I firstly have to as per your direct quote "grasp what you mean'' and then you'll ''explain later' on blind faith ignoring the fact that your book has no textual/historical/chronological/ or authorship integrity -- shouldn't a miracle in fact be so visible to the naked eye, that you won't need this pathetic convoluted calisthenics with words to to echo something that simply isn't there?

Yet 'miracles' of combinatorics also involving the number 7, math that is taught in university classrooms which came thousands of years ago from the desert the unassailable textual integrity, logical consistency, supernatural eloquence, scientific statements, engagement of the reader as if one on one with the divine is not miraculous because well you said so and you know best heh heh!

lol

go look for a congregation on an atheist or a christian forum!

all the best

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Would you happen to have any resources on that? Maybe that will help me skip the Mormon forums. Everyone has their defense, but few actually hold up once the waters are tested.

True. Most of what the Mormons rely on is Chiasmus. They argue that there are patterns in the Book of Mormon that follow a chiastic structure that only would be in an inspired text. The problem with that argument is that you can find chiasms in all kinds of literature, including books that have nothing to do with spirituality. And another problem is: When did chiasm ever = inspiration? Who decides?

Another argument they try to use is that there are supposedly a lot of "Hebraisms" in the text which they claim mean that it is an ancient semitic text. I have never been persuaded by that argument at all. A lot of it is just in King James English and therefore sounds ancient or reflects the speech pattern of the writer, so I don't think that is an argument that stands up under scrutiny. I've seen objective Hebrew scholars demolish that argument.

I think you can find a lot of their arguments on FAIR (foundation for ancient research and mormon studies) or at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute. Those two places are where their so-called "scholars" hang out. At first it seems impressive, but after awhile you realize that they have either skewed the evidence or come to a conclusion and then tried to find anything possible that might fit in their preconceived conclusions. They are not objective at all. You can prove anything using their approach. They are pseudo-scholars in my opinion.

As I mentioned, there have been those who have found a mathematical structure in the Qur'an. The "Qur'an Only" group in Tucson is one (but they aren't accepted by mainstream Islam because they reject the Hadith as well as believe another messenger has come subsequent to Muhammad PBUH). And there are others that have also found interesting structures in the text.

But the real test is whether it can be duplicated in Arabic. No one has been able to do that as far as I can tell. It was revealed in Arabic and has not been duplicated. No one has been able to meet the challenge.
There are others here who have been Muslim longer than I who could address this in a much more comprehensive fashion.

Peace.

:wa: