YieldedOne
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Again, divorcing Christianity from Judaism is absolutely proposterous just from regular HISTORICAL perspective of HOW the earliest church taught! 
Maybe Christianity has Jesus Wrong: Jesus as Mystic
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YieldedOne
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Actually, that could be a challenge for any people who'd want to try it.
-- Read Isaiah 53.
-- Read Daniel 7, particularly the Son of Man passages.
--Go to the various Gospels where Jesus himself repeatedly tells his clueless disciples that he must suffer and "die"...and where he calls himself the "Son of Man" who will be coming on "clouds of glory". Also note all of the rejection and betrayal that Jesus suffered at the hands of his fellow people and the Romans.
Now a rational, reasonable person can ask:
1) It is reasonable to think that Jesus KNEW about Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7 and accepted those ideas as part of his own self-understanding?
2) Is it reasonable for those Jews after Jesus (Peter, Paul, Philip, etc) to look at Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7...comparing that with the life and ministry of Jesus...and to see GREAT similarity, thus CONVINCING THEM that Jesus was indeed God's Messiah?
What best explains the evidence that we have?
-- Read Isaiah 53.
-- Read Daniel 7, particularly the Son of Man passages.
--Go to the various Gospels where Jesus himself repeatedly tells his clueless disciples that he must suffer and "die"...and where he calls himself the "Son of Man" who will be coming on "clouds of glory". Also note all of the rejection and betrayal that Jesus suffered at the hands of his fellow people and the Romans.
Now a rational, reasonable person can ask:
1) It is reasonable to think that Jesus KNEW about Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7 and accepted those ideas as part of his own self-understanding?
2) Is it reasonable for those Jews after Jesus (Peter, Paul, Philip, etc) to look at Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7...comparing that with the life and ministry of Jesus...and to see GREAT similarity, thus CONVINCING THEM that Jesus was indeed God's Messiah?
What best explains the evidence that we have?
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). ---ask Rabbi Simmons, about.com
---The Jews claim NONE of these events happened---and history backs up their claim---as for (D), the "God of Isreal" is NOT a trinity.
---Not to mention, (IMO)this is not a major aspect of Judaism---If some Saduccees and Pharasees were quibling over the issue 2,000 years ago---its neither here nor there....
That Paul took some minor aspect of Judaism to make some claims about Jesus Christ(pbuh) that have not stood the test of time should give Christians some pause....(IMO)---however, as you pointed out---my opinion is irrelevant as I am neither Jew nor Christian
I know Christians use many aspects of the OT to "prove" their claims---However, if one takes things out of context, mistranslates, misinterprets.....reads something into the text that was never intended....etc....etc ... One could perhaps "prove" trinity, son of God....etc from Shakespear or Moby Dick...or some such...!?
Jewish refutation of Isiah 53....Basically saying one has to READ THINGS IN CONTEXT.....
But, who is the "he" referred to in the verses? Let's trace it back a few lines to the previous chapter (52), where the discussion of what "he" will do begins. At 52:13 it appears to begin with "Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high."
OK, so now we know that "he" is G-d's "servant." But who is G-d's "servant"? Let's trace our steps a little further. In Isaiah 41:8 the question is answered: "But Israel is my servant." The next line, Isaiah 41:9, adds some more: "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you away." Just so we shouldn't miss the point, Isaiah quotes G-d saying: "Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen." (Is 44:2); "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for you are my servant. I have formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you shall not be forgotten by Me." (Is 44:21);" "For the sake of My servant Jacob, Israel My chosen one." (Is. 45:4); and "You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory." (Is 49:3). Get it? Israel -- not a person -- is the servant whose suffering is predicted in Isaiah 53. Certainly we Jews have suffered through our years on this earth. G-d also promises that we will do well: See Isaiah 52:12-15 ("For you shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rear guard. Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high." Bruce James-, about.com
The passage survives in three versions, from three autonomous and parallel manuscript traditions: the Masoretic text that is the most familiar one, the Septuagint text, and the Qumran community's Great Isaiah Scroll, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated to the 2nd century BCE[5]
The Christian "Man of Sorrows" passage of Isaiah 53 is a selected text that usually omits those characteristics of the human scapegoat for the sins of Israel that are not applicable directly to Jesus, or that can only be applied through allegory, such as "he is as a root in a thirsty land: he has no form nor comeliness; and we saw him, but he had no form nor beauty. But his form was ignoble, and inferior to that of the children of men." (Septuagint version)---wikipedia
My point is that---almost NO ONE refutes that Jesus Christ(pbuh) was a wise spriritual person whose teachings were of benefit to human beings. ---Therefore, if Christians were to appreciate this treasure and live by it, instead of 2,000 years of TALKING about the "Nature" of Jesus Christ(pbuh)----I think the human race would be better off.
Sutra Nipata----
"As the flower blown out by the wind
goes to rest and cannot be defined
so the wise man, freed from individuality
goes to rest and cannot be defined
goes beyond all images
goes beyond the power of words"
I think Christians should stop trying to define Jesus Christ(pbuh) and work on ways to serve God instead.....
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). ---ask Rabbi Simmons, about.com
---The Jews claim NONE of these events happened---and history backs up their claim---as for (D), the "God of Isreal" is NOT a trinity.
---Not to mention, (IMO)this is not a major aspect of Judaism---If some Saduccees and Pharasees were quibling over the issue 2,000 years ago---its neither here nor there....
That Paul took some minor aspect of Judaism to make some claims about Jesus Christ(pbuh) that have not stood the test of time should give Christians some pause....(IMO)---however, as you pointed out---my opinion is irrelevant as I am neither Jew nor Christian
I know Christians use many aspects of the OT to "prove" their claims---However, if one takes things out of context, mistranslates, misinterprets.....reads something into the text that was never intended....etc....etc ... One could perhaps "prove" trinity, son of God....etc from Shakespear or Moby Dick...or some such...!?
Jewish refutation of Isiah 53....Basically saying one has to READ THINGS IN CONTEXT.....
But, who is the "he" referred to in the verses? Let's trace it back a few lines to the previous chapter (52), where the discussion of what "he" will do begins. At 52:13 it appears to begin with "Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high."
OK, so now we know that "he" is G-d's "servant." But who is G-d's "servant"? Let's trace our steps a little further. In Isaiah 41:8 the question is answered: "But Israel is my servant." The next line, Isaiah 41:9, adds some more: "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you away." Just so we shouldn't miss the point, Isaiah quotes G-d saying: "Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen." (Is 44:2); "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for you are my servant. I have formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you shall not be forgotten by Me." (Is 44:21);" "For the sake of My servant Jacob, Israel My chosen one." (Is. 45:4); and "You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory." (Is 49:3). Get it? Israel -- not a person -- is the servant whose suffering is predicted in Isaiah 53. Certainly we Jews have suffered through our years on this earth. G-d also promises that we will do well: See Isaiah 52:12-15 ("For you shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rear guard. Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high." Bruce James-, about.com
The passage survives in three versions, from three autonomous and parallel manuscript traditions: the Masoretic text that is the most familiar one, the Septuagint text, and the Qumran community's Great Isaiah Scroll, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated to the 2nd century BCE[5]
The Christian "Man of Sorrows" passage of Isaiah 53 is a selected text that usually omits those characteristics of the human scapegoat for the sins of Israel that are not applicable directly to Jesus, or that can only be applied through allegory, such as "he is as a root in a thirsty land: he has no form nor comeliness; and we saw him, but he had no form nor beauty. But his form was ignoble, and inferior to that of the children of men." (Septuagint version)---wikipedia
My point is that---almost NO ONE refutes that Jesus Christ(pbuh) was a wise spriritual person whose teachings were of benefit to human beings. ---Therefore, if Christians were to appreciate this treasure and live by it, instead of 2,000 years of TALKING about the "Nature" of Jesus Christ(pbuh)----I think the human race would be better off.
Sutra Nipata----
"As the flower blown out by the wind
goes to rest and cannot be defined
so the wise man, freed from individuality
goes to rest and cannot be defined
goes beyond all images
goes beyond the power of words"
I think Christians should stop trying to define Jesus Christ(pbuh) and work on ways to serve God instead.....
Not that it makes a difference to me one way or the other---but this is what Jews say about Daniel 7....
Daniel 7:13
In the 7th chapter of the book of Daniel, we learn of a prophetic vision granted to Daniel. He tells us of four great beasts rising out of the sea, one after another. After describing each of the four beasts Daniel sees “one like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven” (Daniel 7:13). Missionaries consider this verse to be of “critical importance”, because it establishes the exalted nature of the Messiah . . This is incredible. This is one of the few passages in scripture that come along with a commentary. Scripture itself explains this passage and the “son of man” of Daniel 7:13 is not the Messiah – it is the people of Israel! ------jewsforjudaism.org.au
I like paradigm shifts----I think discovery is the best part of living and seeing the world in a new ways is wonderful.---but such shifts must be accompanied by humility and reflection in order to discern truth---paradigm shifts accompanied by pride/ego in ones "rightness" only blinds us to the truth.
Daniel 7:13
In the 7th chapter of the book of Daniel, we learn of a prophetic vision granted to Daniel. He tells us of four great beasts rising out of the sea, one after another. After describing each of the four beasts Daniel sees “one like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven” (Daniel 7:13). Missionaries consider this verse to be of “critical importance”, because it establishes the exalted nature of the Messiah . . This is incredible. This is one of the few passages in scripture that come along with a commentary. Scripture itself explains this passage and the “son of man” of Daniel 7:13 is not the Messiah – it is the people of Israel! ------jewsforjudaism.org.au
I like paradigm shifts----I think discovery is the best part of living and seeing the world in a new ways is wonderful.---but such shifts must be accompanied by humility and reflection in order to discern truth---paradigm shifts accompanied by pride/ego in ones "rightness" only blinds us to the truth.
YieldedOne
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More fun.
Siam:
If some Saduccees and Pharasees were quibling over the issue 2,000 years ago...
Wow. Talk about a minimizing statement! Whoa.
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Siam:
Jewish refutation of Isiah 53....Basically saying one has to READ THINGS IN CONTEXT.....
Let's go directly back to your source here...the About page of Mr. Bruce James...
1)It is very obvious that this man has not read the New Testament at all. Seriously. He talks about MISSIONARIES using this text. He doesn't seem to note that this text was SPECIFICALLY used by Jewish apostles in the early church. In other words, modern Christians wouldn't be thinking this way about the texts of the Jewish Christians of the early church hadn't done it. He makes absolutely no mention about this. He acts like modern Christians just cherrypicked this Scripture themselves and that's absolutely not true. Wierd.
2) I almost want to say "DUH!" here. The Messiah is a REPRESENTATIVE of Israel. Just like the HIGH PRIEST was at the time of the Day of Atonment. And that's EXACTLY how the early Jewish Christians took it. Again, modern day Christians didn't make this up. This is what was taught in the synagogues by the earliest Jewish Christians (even the JUDAIZERS taught this!)
From the wikipedia that you quote later...
One of the first claims in the New Testament that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of Jesus comes from the Book of Acts, in which its author (who is also the author of Luke) describes a scene in which God commands Philip the Apostle to approach an Ethiopian eunuch who is sitting in a chariot, reading aloud to himself from the Book of Isaiah. The eunuch comments that he does not understand what he is reading (Isaiah 53) and Philip explains to him that the passage refers to Jesus. "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus." This has been the standard Christian interpretation of the passage since Apostolic times. Isaiah 53:4 is also quoted in Matthew 8:17, where it is used in context of Jesus' healing ministry.
So, I don't know what Mr. James is on...but he needs a little more information if he's gonna try to just go after Christians like he does.
Something for thought, Siam. It's not good to use anachronistic refutations that don't take good consideration of the true source of the claim. It looks...well...
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Siam:
The passage survives in three versions, from three autonomous and parallel manuscript traditions: the Masoretic text that is the most familiar one, the Septuagint text, and the Qumran community's Great Isaiah Scroll, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated to the 2nd century BCE[5]
The Christian "Man of Sorrows" passage of Isaiah 53 is a selected text that usually omits those characteristics of the human scapegoat for the sins of Israel that are not applicable directly to Jesus, or that can only be applied through allegory, such as "he is as a root in a thirsty land: he has no form nor comeliness; and we saw him, but he had no form nor beauty. But his form was ignoble, and inferior to that of the children of men." (Septuagint version)---wikipedia
Just read the Masoretic text, then. There's plenty of online helps for that.
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Siam:
My point is that---almost NO ONE refutes that Jesus Christ(pbuh) was a wise spriritual person whose teachings were of benefit to human beings. ---Therefore, if Christians were to appreciate this treasure and live by it, instead of 2,000 years of TALKING about the "Nature" of Jesus Christ(pbuh)----I think the human race would be better off.
As I've already said...if everyone who believed Jesus was TRULY a Prophet and Messenger of God would obey his reification of Loving God with all one's heart soul, mind, and strength...and loving the neighbor as oneself...we WOULD all be better off. Including Muslims AND Christians.
Actually, I believe that even SECULAR HUMANISTS wouldn't disagree with the "love your neighbor as yourself" thing. At all.
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Siam:
Daniel 7:13
In the 7th chapter of the book of Daniel, we learn of a prophetic vision granted to Daniel. He tells us of four great beasts rising out of the sea, one after another. After describing each of the four beasts Daniel sees “one like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven” (Daniel 7:13). Missionaries consider this verse to be of “critical importance”, because it establishes the exalted nature of the Messiah . . This is incredible. This is one of the few passages in scripture that come along with a commentary. Scripture itself explains this passage and the “son of man” of Daniel 7:13 is not the Messiah – it is the people of Israel!
Here we go again. I'd like you to note, Siam, the REACTIONARY tone of these Jewish sites that you are citing. It's quite obvious that they have a "bone" to pick with the Christian interpreation of things. They say "missionaries" again. This source seems ENTIRELY CLUELESS that 1) this was from the perspective of the earliest JEWISH Christians and 2) that the Messiah is a representative for Israel...and that's how the earliest Jewish Christians SAW it.
What is with this antagonism against "missionaries"? Sheesh. It is obviously slanting the views! ^o)
Siam:
If some Saduccees and Pharasees were quibling over the issue 2,000 years ago...
Wow. Talk about a minimizing statement! Whoa.
**************************************
Siam:
Jewish refutation of Isiah 53....Basically saying one has to READ THINGS IN CONTEXT.....
Let's go directly back to your source here...the About page of Mr. Bruce James...
1)It is very obvious that this man has not read the New Testament at all. Seriously. He talks about MISSIONARIES using this text. He doesn't seem to note that this text was SPECIFICALLY used by Jewish apostles in the early church. In other words, modern Christians wouldn't be thinking this way about the texts of the Jewish Christians of the early church hadn't done it. He makes absolutely no mention about this. He acts like modern Christians just cherrypicked this Scripture themselves and that's absolutely not true. Wierd.
2) I almost want to say "DUH!" here. The Messiah is a REPRESENTATIVE of Israel. Just like the HIGH PRIEST was at the time of the Day of Atonment. And that's EXACTLY how the early Jewish Christians took it. Again, modern day Christians didn't make this up. This is what was taught in the synagogues by the earliest Jewish Christians (even the JUDAIZERS taught this!)
From the wikipedia that you quote later...
One of the first claims in the New Testament that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of Jesus comes from the Book of Acts, in which its author (who is also the author of Luke) describes a scene in which God commands Philip the Apostle to approach an Ethiopian eunuch who is sitting in a chariot, reading aloud to himself from the Book of Isaiah. The eunuch comments that he does not understand what he is reading (Isaiah 53) and Philip explains to him that the passage refers to Jesus. "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus." This has been the standard Christian interpretation of the passage since Apostolic times. Isaiah 53:4 is also quoted in Matthew 8:17, where it is used in context of Jesus' healing ministry.
So, I don't know what Mr. James is on...but he needs a little more information if he's gonna try to just go after Christians like he does.
Something for thought, Siam. It's not good to use anachronistic refutations that don't take good consideration of the true source of the claim. It looks...well...
****************************************
Siam:
The passage survives in three versions, from three autonomous and parallel manuscript traditions: the Masoretic text that is the most familiar one, the Septuagint text, and the Qumran community's Great Isaiah Scroll, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated to the 2nd century BCE[5]
The Christian "Man of Sorrows" passage of Isaiah 53 is a selected text that usually omits those characteristics of the human scapegoat for the sins of Israel that are not applicable directly to Jesus, or that can only be applied through allegory, such as "he is as a root in a thirsty land: he has no form nor comeliness; and we saw him, but he had no form nor beauty. But his form was ignoble, and inferior to that of the children of men." (Septuagint version)---wikipedia
Just read the Masoretic text, then. There's plenty of online helps for that.
*********************************************
Siam:
My point is that---almost NO ONE refutes that Jesus Christ(pbuh) was a wise spriritual person whose teachings were of benefit to human beings. ---Therefore, if Christians were to appreciate this treasure and live by it, instead of 2,000 years of TALKING about the "Nature" of Jesus Christ(pbuh)----I think the human race would be better off.
As I've already said...if everyone who believed Jesus was TRULY a Prophet and Messenger of God would obey his reification of Loving God with all one's heart soul, mind, and strength...and loving the neighbor as oneself...we WOULD all be better off. Including Muslims AND Christians.
Actually, I believe that even SECULAR HUMANISTS wouldn't disagree with the "love your neighbor as yourself" thing. At all.
********************************************
Siam:
Daniel 7:13
In the 7th chapter of the book of Daniel, we learn of a prophetic vision granted to Daniel. He tells us of four great beasts rising out of the sea, one after another. After describing each of the four beasts Daniel sees “one like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven” (Daniel 7:13). Missionaries consider this verse to be of “critical importance”, because it establishes the exalted nature of the Messiah . . This is incredible. This is one of the few passages in scripture that come along with a commentary. Scripture itself explains this passage and the “son of man” of Daniel 7:13 is not the Messiah – it is the people of Israel!
Here we go again. I'd like you to note, Siam, the REACTIONARY tone of these Jewish sites that you are citing. It's quite obvious that they have a "bone" to pick with the Christian interpreation of things. They say "missionaries" again. This source seems ENTIRELY CLUELESS that 1) this was from the perspective of the earliest JEWISH Christians and 2) that the Messiah is a representative for Israel...and that's how the earliest Jewish Christians SAW it.
What is with this antagonism against "missionaries"? Sheesh. It is obviously slanting the views! ^o)
I agree that some of this may be vehement....but from what I understood, some Jews are getting a bit tired of Christians tagging the "Judeo" in front of Christianity as if Judaism approves of Christian doctrine.....a Jewish person complained "leave us "Judeos" out of it"......
So....there seems to be a reaction to the constant appropriating of the Torah to validate doctrines that the Jews/Torah DO NOT APPROVE......I favor this trend. I am also wary of Christians misusing the Quran to validate the trinity doctrine.
If you feel that it is necessary for your faith to keep the NT attached to the Torah/OT---then doing so with the understandng that Judasim DOES NOT approve of many of the Christian/Trinitarian doctrines may be more honest....?......
Both the previous and subsequent revelations say trinitarianism is incorrect---despite this, if you feel trinitarianism is the correct path for you----then honor it by honesty....The Quran says truth stands out from error----if you feel that trinity is the truth then it should not need any other authority to stand up for it.....if, however, Christians feel that trinity cannot stand up on its own----perhaps it is time to concentrate on other aspects of Christianity---and I feel the wisdom teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) might be a good place to start---seeing as it is the one thing that DOES stand on it own.......(and, as you mentioned, it is also universal)
In any case, God is most compassionate and most merciful and Guides all those who seek him......Perhaps I may not understand your spiritual path/journey and you may not understand mine---but as human beings we can all understand the common language of DOING good, making this world a better place. For both Judaism and Islam---orthopraxis is an important/essential part of our religions. Perhaps if Christians also built on this foundation....? of what use is orthodoxy (right belief) if it does not ultimately lead to orthopraxis (right actions/practice)
Ibn Arabi writes "Every (state of) being in accord (with God) that doesn't bring with it the corresponding appropriate behaviour and attitude can't be relied upon"
So....there seems to be a reaction to the constant appropriating of the Torah to validate doctrines that the Jews/Torah DO NOT APPROVE......I favor this trend. I am also wary of Christians misusing the Quran to validate the trinity doctrine.
If you feel that it is necessary for your faith to keep the NT attached to the Torah/OT---then doing so with the understandng that Judasim DOES NOT approve of many of the Christian/Trinitarian doctrines may be more honest....?......
Both the previous and subsequent revelations say trinitarianism is incorrect---despite this, if you feel trinitarianism is the correct path for you----then honor it by honesty....The Quran says truth stands out from error----if you feel that trinity is the truth then it should not need any other authority to stand up for it.....if, however, Christians feel that trinity cannot stand up on its own----perhaps it is time to concentrate on other aspects of Christianity---and I feel the wisdom teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) might be a good place to start---seeing as it is the one thing that DOES stand on it own.......(and, as you mentioned, it is also universal)
In any case, God is most compassionate and most merciful and Guides all those who seek him......Perhaps I may not understand your spiritual path/journey and you may not understand mine---but as human beings we can all understand the common language of DOING good, making this world a better place. For both Judaism and Islam---orthopraxis is an important/essential part of our religions. Perhaps if Christians also built on this foundation....? of what use is orthodoxy (right belief) if it does not ultimately lead to orthopraxis (right actions/practice)
Ibn Arabi writes "Every (state of) being in accord (with God) that doesn't bring with it the corresponding appropriate behaviour and attitude can't be relied upon"
YieldedOne
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Siam:
I agree that some of this may be vehement....but from what I understood, some Jews are getting a bit tired of Christians tagging the "Judeo" in front of Christianity as if Judaism approves of Christian doctrine.....a Jewish person complained "leave us "Judeos" out of it"......
I'd say "No offense intended, but please get over yourselves." to that type of mentality. As I've clearly shown here...and as any historical scholar worth their salt will tell you, Christianity wouldn't even EXIST without Judaism and it CANNOT stand by itself. Christians like ME who want to be absolutely honest about that shouldn't have to be insulted just because we want to be historically valid in our claims.
Sheesh. :hmm:
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Siam:
If you feel that it is necessary for your faith to keep the NT attached to the Torah/OT---then doing so with the understandng that Judasim DOES NOT approve of many of the Christian/Trinitarian doctrines may be more honest....?......
It would be more honest for Jews and Christians to look TOGETHER as the earliest Jewish Christians, what they believed, and why. Rather than trying to make some kind of ersatz absolute separation when there is none there.
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Siam:
Both the previous and subsequent revelations say trinitarianism is incorrect---despite this, if you feel trinitarianism is the correct path for you----then honor it by honesty....The Quran says truth stands out from error----if you feel that trinity is the truth then it should not need any other authority to stand up for it.....if, however, Christians feel that trinity cannot stand up on its own----perhaps it is time to concentrate on other aspects of Christianity---and I feel the wisdom teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) might be a good place to start---seeing as it is the one thing that DOES stand on it own.......(and, as you mentioned, it is also universal)
If it came between teaching about the Trinity and teaching about the Great Commandments that Jesus himself taught...you KNOW which one I'd choose, right, Siam?
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Siam:
In any case, God is most compassionate and most merciful and Guides all those who seek him......Perhaps I may not understand your spiritual path/journey and you may not understand mine---but as human beings we can all understand the common language of DOING good, making this world a better place. For both Judaism and Islam---orthopraxis is an important/essential part of our religions. Perhaps if Christians also built on this foundation....? of what use is orthodoxy (right belief) if it does not ultimately lead to orthopraxis (right actions/practice)
Amen, bro. I bother a lot of Christians saying this but I say it anyway...
It doesn't MATTER whether you or unitarian or trinatarian if you are NOT loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength...and loving your neighbor as yourself. It doesn't MATTER if you are right doctrinally on the Unity and/or Diversity in God. If you ain't following Jesus' teachings about the Great Commandments, you are DENYING God and the Faith. Period.
I agree that some of this may be vehement....but from what I understood, some Jews are getting a bit tired of Christians tagging the "Judeo" in front of Christianity as if Judaism approves of Christian doctrine.....a Jewish person complained "leave us "Judeos" out of it"......
I'd say "No offense intended, but please get over yourselves." to that type of mentality. As I've clearly shown here...and as any historical scholar worth their salt will tell you, Christianity wouldn't even EXIST without Judaism and it CANNOT stand by itself. Christians like ME who want to be absolutely honest about that shouldn't have to be insulted just because we want to be historically valid in our claims.
Sheesh. :hmm:
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Siam:
If you feel that it is necessary for your faith to keep the NT attached to the Torah/OT---then doing so with the understandng that Judasim DOES NOT approve of many of the Christian/Trinitarian doctrines may be more honest....?......
It would be more honest for Jews and Christians to look TOGETHER as the earliest Jewish Christians, what they believed, and why. Rather than trying to make some kind of ersatz absolute separation when there is none there.
**********************************************
Siam:
Both the previous and subsequent revelations say trinitarianism is incorrect---despite this, if you feel trinitarianism is the correct path for you----then honor it by honesty....The Quran says truth stands out from error----if you feel that trinity is the truth then it should not need any other authority to stand up for it.....if, however, Christians feel that trinity cannot stand up on its own----perhaps it is time to concentrate on other aspects of Christianity---and I feel the wisdom teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) might be a good place to start---seeing as it is the one thing that DOES stand on it own.......(and, as you mentioned, it is also universal)
If it came between teaching about the Trinity and teaching about the Great Commandments that Jesus himself taught...you KNOW which one I'd choose, right, Siam?
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Siam:
In any case, God is most compassionate and most merciful and Guides all those who seek him......Perhaps I may not understand your spiritual path/journey and you may not understand mine---but as human beings we can all understand the common language of DOING good, making this world a better place. For both Judaism and Islam---orthopraxis is an important/essential part of our religions. Perhaps if Christians also built on this foundation....? of what use is orthodoxy (right belief) if it does not ultimately lead to orthopraxis (right actions/practice)
Amen, bro. I bother a lot of Christians saying this but I say it anyway...
It doesn't MATTER whether you or unitarian or trinatarian if you are NOT loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength...and loving your neighbor as yourself. It doesn't MATTER if you are right doctrinally on the Unity and/or Diversity in God. If you ain't following Jesus' teachings about the Great Commandments, you are DENYING God and the Faith. Period.