Middle East Influence in Bosnia

[vpb]

I don't know about what kind of influence u're talking about, but Sudi have been repairing many mosques in Kosovo, one of them, they took off the old one and build a new one, if u just see it, it's so beautifull, very beautifull so I like when they invest on these kinds of things.

peace.

 

[north_malaysian]

Only two religious groups send their missionaries worldwide ... as a competition ... i think... Christianity and Islam! Christian missionaries got their money for missions by donations while the Muslim missionaries got their money from oil. Christians set the trend followed by Muslims.

 

[HeiGou]

Bosnia is considered European, but Bosnia's futute is not in Europe but within a united Islamic caliphate.

Bosnia is land-locked by Croatia on one side, Serbia and Montenegro on the other. Beyond them are Greece and Bulgaria cutting off access to Turkey. Just how can you form a united Islamic country without invading several other independent countries and taking their lands?

 

[HeiGou]

It must not also be forgotten that this Europe you speak of allowed Muslims to be slaughtered in Srebrenica. This Europe turned its back on Bosnia and Saudi's rushed to support the Muslims of Bosnia while the west looked on, as the UN enforced an illegal arms embargo, while the US sold weapons to all sides. Bosnian Muslims have the God given right to speak against the west for their crimes against us. The west is treacherous.

If the UN enforced it, how could it be illegal? And if you look you will see that the Bosnian-Croat Armies were heavily armed by the West, not by the Muslim countries. The West did not look on. The West encouraged the break up of Yugoslavia. The West tried to stop the murder of innocent people in Bosnia and when that failed, went to war with Serbia. Bosnia exists because the West protected it. The US did not sell arms to anyone in Bosnia. They gave a lot to the Croats and some to the Muslims. Let the Bosnian Muslims speak up, but be fair. There is no reason to criticise the West here and the West has not been treacherous.

Myself, I think if Serbs, Croats and Bosnian Muslims cannot live in a united Yugoslavia, they cannot live in a united Bosnia. Partition Bosnia and divide it between Croatia and Serbia. Leave the Muslim bits to be whatever they want to be.

The problem with this attitude is that I cannot see any reason to help Muslims at all. Why bother if they will just blame you for whatever goes wrong?

 

[HeiGou]

back in the time when yugoslavia was in the hands of Marshall Tito, people in yugoslavia could go anywhere they wanted, not even people in european countries did have better standards then people in yugoslavia,

Hmm, that is half true. Yugoslavia was not as thoroughly going Communist as the Soviet Union and so they were richer than most of Eastern Europe. But they were much poorer than Western Europe. But they could not go where they liked. They needed visas and the like to travel in the West - from their own government and from the government they wished to visit.

but then suddenlly , probably some CIA mission was achieved, no more soviet union, didn't need yugoslavia (ballkan) anymore,and everything started going down, and they got to that position that people in ballkan countries have to get a visa just to for a visit to anohter country.

Of course it has nothing to do with the Slovaks or Croats wanting democracy is it? It was all some CIA plot! Slovakia wished to leave Yugoslavia and once the Soviet Union wasn't there to stop them they voted to leave. So did the Croats and the Bosnians. Especially once the Serbs started to get all so very nationalistic. I am sure that the Europeans encouraged them. But the result is that Slovakia has joined the EU and Croatia will soon so that now they do not need a visa but before they did.

there are telling that right now in some villages in Albania , christians missionaries are paying money to poor families to convert to christianity, I dont know if it is true, but it looks like and same think is happening in Kosovo and maybe Bosnia, where christian propaganda is very high, where a professor goes in the university and as an literature he gives to every student a bible, (majority of students are muslims)....

And what is wrong with that?

 

[Genius]

Hmm, that is half true. Yugoslavia was not as thoroughly going Communist as the Soviet Union and so they were richer than most of Eastern Europe. But they were much poorer than Western Europe. But they could not go where they liked. They needed visas and the like to travel in the West - from their own government and from the government they wished to visit.



Of course it has nothing to do with the Slovaks or Croats wanting democracy is it? It was all some CIA plot! Slovakia wished to leave Yugoslavia and once the Soviet Union wasn't there to stop them they voted to leave. So did the Croats and the Bosnians. Especially once the Serbs started to get all so very nationalistic. I am sure that the Europeans encouraged them. But the result is that Slovakia has joined the EU and Croatia will soon so that now they do not need a visa but before they did.



And what is wrong with that?

You mean Slovenia, Slovakia has never been a part of Yugoslavia.

 

[HeiGou]

You mean Slovenia, Slovakia has never been a part of Yugoslavia.

Yes. My genius moment for the day. Thank you. Slovenia.

 

[Genius]

Yes. My genius moment for the day. Thank you. Slovenia.

It's an easy mistake to make, I forgive you.

 

[samobosna96]

Well itis good to read books, but you know what, try living it. Books can tell you so much from the comfort of your living room in the US, thats just like telling an Iraqi that the US didnt screw you, so you better research. and yes there was instigators and if u knew ur research then you would know what i will say near the bottom.

as for the comment that Bosnian Muslims would laugh at me for stating that resistance is right, well would they? I doubt it. What did Aljia Izetbegovic do when Serbia attacked? H elined the sreets with the muhjahadeen and fought back.

And now Bosnia is not the west, historically, politically, economically, geographically it is east. Bosnia is not considered western europe, it is central eastern europe. you may not think there is a difference but in eality there is.


Yes Kosovo was a Muslim autcrocity comitted by the US bombing. My friends left kosovo not because of the serbs but because of the US bombing indiscriminatly. What was needed was ground troops not bombs. nd with the bombs dropping serbs were free to run around killing with scapegoat of the bombs faling. why dont u grow up?

You think it is funny that Muslims are being slaughtered by the west? I never said I wanted the west t help them out in anything, asking for US or assistance of the Kufar is strictly HARAM! Muslims asks the assistance of Muslims and thats all. The US wasnted needed as assisastance bewcause they were the instigators and heres why:

in the 1950s bulgaria and romania wanted to join the yugoslavia federation, both the us and soviets opposed this because it would only make them stronger. the yugoslav were socialist and much more prosperous than the soviets and adding more countries would increase the strneght and competion in their spheres of influence. this was also the cold war the us, and other western countries had tried to create conflict within yugo but tito kept the country in check. when he died there was a power vaccum, however there was enugh will to keep the country alive and ths US knew this, so they started telling all sides to declare independece, because they knew if any country did the serbs would respond with war. the west needed to divide and conquer yugosalvia to remove its geopolitical threat to srea so capitlaism and democracy can come in. also the EC at the time now EU had aspirations of its own which is why they ignored bosnia for so ong to let it fal to the brink of war. the hopes was when the country was completely destroyed in order to rebuild they would need the west.

in 1991 first bush stated that if serbia reacted with aggression the US would react with war also. but they didnt when countires started declaring independence. this laid the stage for genocide and complete destruction and exatly what the western powers wanted.

and during the war wth the assistance for foreign fighters from the middle east the muslims made many military advances in the end which is why the dayton accords were implemented, to keep bosnia fragmented and weak with small autnomous states that keep fighting each other. much like the same the us has done in iraq and mch like the same the french and british did with the ottoman empire with the skyes picot agreemnt in 1916.


and one last thing, Bosnians are slavs, i dont why people say such things, what else are they?

 

[HeiGou]

And now Bosnia is not the west, historically, politically, economically, geographically it is east. Bosnia is not considered western europe, it is central eastern europe. you may not think there is a difference but in eality there is.

Since the Turkish invasion it was ruled from Asia Minor and that left a small residue of Muslims. But historically it is part of the West - or at least Central Europe. It marks the border between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, not the border between Islam and Christianity.

Yes Kosovo was a Muslim autcrocity comitted by the US bombing. My friends left kosovo not because of the serbs but because of the US bombing indiscriminatly. What was needed was ground troops not bombs. nd with the bombs dropping serbs were free to run around killing with scapegoat of the bombs faling. why dont u grow up?

I am sorry but tell me about how the Kosovan Army managed to defeat the Serbian Army with all their ground troops? The fact is it was bombing from the air that defeated the Serbs.

I never said I wanted the west t help them out in anything, asking for US or assistance of the Kufar is strictly HARAM! Muslims asks the assistance of Muslims and thats all.

So you wouldn't support the West giving aid to help here because it is haram?

UN Appeals for Urgent Aid to Draught-hit E.Africa

"Nowhere else on earth is so much at stake as in Africa," Egeland said. (Reuters)

NAIROBI, April 7, 2006 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) – The United Nations appealed Friday, April 7, for hundreds of millions of dollars in urgent aid to rescue million of lives threatened in draught-hit East Africa.

"Nowhere else on earth is so much at stake as in Africa. It is here where most lives are at stake," UN humanitarian chief Jan Egeland told reporters, launching the 426-million-dollar (348-million-euro) appeal, Reuters reported.

Since late 2005, east Africans have been facing hunger and losing livestock, due to a drought one aid agency, Oxfam, said on Friday will take 15 years to recover from.

The drought has hit Kenya, Somalia and Ethiopia hardest, but also Djibouti, Eritrea, Burundi, Uganda and Tanzania.

Of the $426 million sought, Egeland said the bulk -- $327 million -- was for Somalia, a Horn of Africa country overrun by warlords for the last 15 years.

"If we fail to invest in Somalia today, there will be more conflict. Because if it's one thing that Somalia's full of, it's small arms," Egeland said.

"Angry, hungry men with Kalashnikovs in search of food somewhere will lead to more conflict and a collapse of the whole project of establishing a viable state."

Friday's appeal includes emergency relief and funding for 100 long-term projects sponsored by the United Nations and relief organizations.

Children Dying

A Kenyan woman walks past cattle carcasses in drought stricken Wajir. (Reuters)

Egeland said the drought is killing children in "very high numbers."

"Malnourished children die now in very high numbers, it's certainly in the thousands, probably in tens of thousands across the Horn of Africa," he added, responding to a question about how many lives had been lost due to the drought.

"People are not dying yet in large numbers because of hunger itself, they're dying however because of associated disease and malnutrition," he noted.

Egeland said the number in urgent need could rise to 15 million, adding that if a similar number in other regions faced hunger the world would be scandalized.

"It would be evident if, say, all of Scandinavia faced collective starvation, the world would really respond. If all of northern Iraq was facing massive starvation, I think the world would really respond. If Kosovo and Bosnia again faced starvation, I think the world would massively respond," he said.

In addition to the human toll, hundreds of thousands of livestock and wildlife have perished from the drought further damaging prospects for many.

"Deceptive Rains"

Egeland also sounded a warning on the rains, saying "deceptive" good rains in the region Nairobi, should not lead to complacency.

"It is far too little in the vulnerable areas to be any promise of anything yet. In some areas, it's been far too much too suddenly, a flood, then the water disappears," he said.

British-based charity Oxfam said in a statement on Friday that the rains in some parts of east Africa were a mixed blessing, helping crops and grazing, but also blocking aid routes and harming weak animals further.

"Initially the rain will exacerbate an already fragile situation," Andrew Featherstone, Oxfam regional manager, said.

Oxfam said the few surviving animals were frail and unable even to shake rainwater from their coats.

"Large proportions of the exhausted and malnourished livestock could die due to the rains and change of temperature," it said.​

when he died there was a power vaccum, however there was enugh will to keep the country alive and ths US knew this, so they started telling all sides to declare independece, because they knew if any country did the serbs would respond with war. the west needed to divide and conquer yugosalvia to remove its geopolitical threat to srea so capitlaism and democracy can come in.

So Bosnian independence is a vast CIA plot to weaken Yugoslavia is it? How big was the Yugoslav economy again?

 

[samobosna96]

tito expanded agricultural and industrial production, raising the standard of living for Yugoslavs. With an economic growth rate averaging over 7% throughout the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, Yugoslavia was gradually transformed into a developed country. Improving the economy was not Tito’s most difficult problem, controlling ethnic diversity was. yugoslavia was one of the most influencial and prosperous in the non aligned movement and yes the west conspired to defeat the yugoslav empire because with the invetitable fall of the soviets the eastern european countires would gravitate to yugoslavia therefore increasing its economic influence and geopolitical relevance.

Ask yourself who is responsable for creating these ecponomic problems in africa? colonialism and imperialism. therefore britian and france caused these problems so how can they fix them?

i am just about to leave class so more to come......

 

[HeiGou]

tito expanded agricultural and industrial production, raising the standard of living for Yugoslavs. With an economic growth rate averaging over 7% throughout the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, Yugoslavia was gradually transformed into a developed country.

Actually it is not hard to fake statistics. Even in the 1960s the Yugoslavia government sent 600,000 guest workers overseas (often to Germany) to work because they needed the hard currency.

But in general I will admit to some ecnomic growth in this period. However they did worse than their former rulers the Austrians or the neighbours the Italians.

Improving the economy was not Tito’s most difficult problem, controlling ethnic diversity was.

Nothing police repression couldn't fix.

yugoslavia was one of the most influencial and prosperous in the non aligned movement and yes the west conspired to defeat the yugoslav empire because with the invetitable fall of the soviets the eastern european countires would gravitate to yugoslavia therefore increasing its economic influence and geopolitical relevance.

Actually if you remember it was the other way around - the Eastern Europeans bolted for the West before the Soviet Union collapsed. And of course by then Yugoslavia had nothing to offer but hyperinflation and Third World debt levels.

Ask yourself who is responsable for creating these ecponomic problems in africa? colonialism and imperialism. therefore britian and france caused these problems so how can they fix them?

Britain and France left Africa with trade surpluses and low debts. They got themselves into that mess.

 

[samobosna96]

to continue with africa there are also theories stating the US brought AIDS to africa with the polio vaccine. the vaccines that were beign developed at the time used ground-up monkey intestines according to a passionate eye docuemntary on the CBC. i will try and locate it.

the west has no moral authoirty to do anything in the world, the west has failed. these fake islamic countries that exist today should be doing more, they are useless and disguisting, i donot defedn them they should be overthrown and repleced by a true Islamic Caliphate. the west have created these problems by their own greed and explotation, there is no need to look to mad made ideologies, Islam id Africas solution.


and again, no bosnia has never been apart or looked at being apart of the west. it has always been eastern central europe.

as for kosovo the end does not justify the means. the serbs may have been defeated with the bombing but it was at the expense of civilians. there is no justification for this. if there were troops on the ground yes the number of civilians died could have been decreased.

 

[HeiGou]

to continue with africa there are also theories stating the US brought AIDS to africa with the polio vaccine. the vaccines that were beign developed at the time used ground-up monkey intestines according to a passionate eye docuemntary on the CBC. i will try and locate it.

There are theories that George Bush is a shape-changing inter-galatic humanoid reptile. Who cares? Is there any suggestion that the people behind this polio research intentionally spread any disease at all much less HIV?

the west has no moral authoirty to do anything in the world, the west has failed.

Odd they should be so rich then and everyone is queuing to get in. Where are you by the way? Why aren't you studying in a country that has succeeded? Perhaps Mali?

these fake islamic countries that exist today should be doing more, they are useless and disguisting, i donot defedn them they should be overthrown and repleced by a true Islamic Caliphate. the west have created these problems by their own greed and explotation, there is no need to look to mad made ideologies, Islam id Africas solution.

And Mali is doing so much better than Malawi?

What makes you think an Islamic state would do better?

and again, no bosnia has never been apart or looked at being apart of the west. it has always been eastern central europe.

Sounds pretty European to me. A good proportion of Bosnia is Croat. They are Catholics. They belong in the West.

as for kosovo the end does not justify the means. the serbs may have been defeated with the bombing but it was at the expense of civilians. there is no justification for this. if there were troops on the ground yes the number of civilians died could have been decreased.

Exactly how was that at the expense of the civilians? How could troops on the ground done a thing. Look at the map. How would the West get troops to Kosovo? Through Serbia? Besides, I think we know how Muslims respond to Western soldiers who have come to liberate them. I think the sensible thing is to stay at 10,000 feet. What is wrong with Kosovo today?

 

[samobosna96]

i am not saying tito want repressive, he was, i dont defend him. and well i could say thr same to you about stats beign faked, in in regards to the 7% increases in economics that is available at the U calgary research site.

and in regards to your comment that the eastern european countries gravitatated towards the wst and not yugo, well by the time the soviets fell yugoslavia was in economic uncertainty and its future uncertain, that was the reason to defeat yugoslavia by pushing nationalism after tito died 1980 to begin with so these countires would come to the west.

about the trade surpluses and such, give the stats i have a chrisitan prof from africa who would say different.

 

[samobosna96]

before the war in bosnia over 60% were Muslim.

just because someone is rich doesnt make them have good morals. remember the west didnt win the world by the cultural or relgious superioty it was by their superiority in the organization of violence. I am studying in canada at the university of calgary.


I wouldnt want US troops in Kosovo i am arguing that if they wwre going to intervene which they did they should have used ground troops. muslim countires should have done more but they failed. but the US was no better.

a righteously guided islamic state will bring justice tho this world where secular humanism has broufht poverty and injustice.

 

[samobosna96]

in kosovo today the UN has created a situation of uncertainty by not deciding on soveringty or not. because of them there is sure to be another war in kosovo that will spill over into bosnia, and probably destabilize the entire region.

 

[HeiGou]

before the war in bosnia over 60% were Muslim.

According to the 1991 census, Bosnia and Herzegovina had a population of 4,354,911. Ethnically, 43.7% were Bosniaks, 31.3% Serbs, and 17.3% Croats, with 5.5% declaring themselves Yugoslavs.​

Pretty lame effort they put up to the Serbs if they made up 60 percent on their own.

just because someone is rich doesnt make them have good morals. remember the west didnt win the world by the cultural or relgious superioty it was by their superiority in the organization of violence. I am studying in canada at the university of calgary.

Indeed. Same with the Ottomans. And yet the West found allies everywhere they went. Still do today.

I wouldnt want US troops in Kosovo i am arguing that if they wwre going to intervene which they did they should have used ground troops. muslim countires should have done more but they failed. but the US was no better.

So basically you know the West is wrong, it is always wrong, it always will be wrong, and you're trying to find out a reason to justify this prejudice? If you do not want troops in Kosovo why should they have gone there? How would they have? You haven't answered that one yet.

And the West did something - they brought Milosevic down and sent arms to Croatia and Bosnia. The Muslim world did what exactly?

a righteously guided islamic state will bring justice tho this world where secular humanism has broufht poverty and injustice.

Secular humanism has brought the greatest growth in wealth and education known to mankind. Look up how many people there were in the world in 1945 and in 1800 and how many there are now.

And you have not told me if you think accepting aid in Africa is a sin yet.

 

[HeiGou]

i am not saying tito want repressive, he was, i dont defend him. and well i could say thr same to you about stats beign faked, in in regards to the 7% increases in economics that is available at the U calgary research site.

Based on official Yugoslav statistics no doubt.

and in regards to your comment that the eastern european countries gravitatated towards the wst and not yugo, well by the time the soviets fell yugoslavia was in economic uncertainty and its future uncertain, that was the reason to defeat yugoslavia by pushing nationalism after tito died 1980 to begin with so these countires would come to the west.

So basically your whole argument was nonsense?

about the trade surpluses and such, give the stats i have a chrisitan prof from africa who would say different.

By all means. Here's some background

The 1950s saw booming economies in much of Africa as growth and international trade increased to many times their pre-war levels. This was tied to the insatiable demand for raw materials in the rebuilding economies of Asia and Europe and the strong growth in North America, which caused raw material prices to increase greatly. By the end of the colonial era in the 1960s, there was great hope that Africa could continue to grow substantially on its own. Sporadic growth during the years after independence continued as the new nations borrowed heavily from abroad to fuel growth.

However, Africa was hit hard by the world economic decline of the 1970s, rising oil prices, corruption, and political instability; and in subsequent decades Africa has steadily become poorer compared to the rest of the world. Africa stands in stark contrast to the solid growth in South America and the spectacular growth of East Asia over that same period. In 1970, according to the World Economic Forum, ten percent of the world's poor were in Africa; by 2000, half of them were. From 1974 to 2000 the average income declined by $200.

There is great debate over the effect of the Colonization of Africa. Africa reached its greatest relative wealth in the years just prior to decolonization. Since then many countries have not yet returned to the levels of wealth they reached in the 1960s. Some see this as evidence that colonialism helped the local economies, while others argue that colonialism left a debilitating mark on African economies.​

How many countries would you accept as representative?

At independence, Ghana had a substantial physical and social infrastructure and $481 million in foreign reserves. The Nkrumah government further developed the infrastructure and made important public investments in the industrial sector. With assistance from the United States, the World Bank, and the United Kingdom, construction of the Akosombo Dam was completed on the Volta River in 1966. Two U.S. companies built Valco, Africa's largest aluminium smelter, to use power generated at the dam. Aluminium exports from Valco are a major source of foreign exchange for Ghana.

Many Nkrumah-era investments were monumental public works projects and poorly conceived, badly managed agricultural and industrial schemes. With cocoa prices falling and the country's foreign exchange reserves fast disappearing, the government resorted to supplier credits to finance many projects. By the mid-1960s, Ghana's reserves were gone, and the country could not meet repayment schedules. To rationalize, the National Liberation Council abandoned unprofitable projects, and some inefficient state-owned enterprises were sold to private investors. On three occasions, Ghana's creditors agreed to reschedule repayments due on Nkrumah-era supplier credits. Led by the United States, foreign donors provided import loans to enable the foreign exchange-strapped government to import essential commodities.​

 

[samobosna96]

no may arugment is not nonsense. the west needed to remove all communist influence in the region, ince the soviets collapsed they wanted to aviod the scenario where eastern europe would gravitate towards yugo, they were are slavs for the most part and economically there were viable. in 1980s within external meddling yugo started to fall aprt and then descend into war what is what the west wanted and needed so that these countries would look west, not east. it makes perect strategic sense.

as for that info i will look at it and talk with my prof. i am not an expert on africa, i know a bit, but im no expert. she has worked with the UN in africa and such and is fiercly against western policies in africa. so i will have to look into more. but just as you said tthe fact i gave you are based on yugoslavs stats then i could say to you that these facts are based on western biases, it goes both ways.