Mixed Marriages...

[Intisar]

Sister, what you are saying is, "Islamically", if my father is an black American and my mother is an white English, then I'm a black American girl, completely not caring what my mother's lineage is? Is that what you are saying?

You are islamically considered black, you're not disregarding your mother's lineage, you just follow that of your fathers.

 

[Al-Zaara]

You are islamically considered black, you're not disregarding your mother's lineage, you just follow that of your fathers.

Aleykum selam we rahmetallahu,

Wha... Are you serious? Does that even sound fair/sane to you? I know Islam is logical and that isn't. That's something completely new to me and very alien, that's not what I have been taught at all. First time I even heard of it. :S

 

[Whatsthepoint]

You are islamically considered black, you're not disregarding your mother's lineage, you just follow that of your fathers.

There was this black guy, married a white woman, had a son, who according to you would be considered black. He then married a woman, had a son, who according to what you say would also be considered black. The line could go on and on, a completely white child would be considered black.
Doesn't make to much sense to me..

 

[Intisar]

Aleykum selam we rahmetallahu,

Wha... Are you serious? Does that even sound fair/sane to you? I know Islam is logical and that isn't. That's something completely new to me and very alien, that's not what I have been taught at all. First time I even heard of it. :S

With all due respect sister, Islam is not supposed to be logical and it does not depend on whether you think parts of it are ''alien'' or not. That's just the way it is.

 

[Al-Zaara]

With all due respect sister, Islam is not supposed to be logical and it does not depend on whether you think it's ''alien'' or not. That's just the way it is.

In many cases Islam is logical and fair in many levels, that what you told me just sounds like racism or even nationalism, which islam is suppoused to be withot. Proove it to me then, tell me who told you this and what evidence they put forth. I am going to ask my teacher inshaAllah, I am quite willing to learn and wanna know what I have missed, 'cause that's quite big.

 

[Intisar]

In many cases Islam is logical and fair in many levels, that what you told me just sounds like racism or even nationalism, which islam is suppoused to be withot. Proove it to me then, tell me who told you this and what evidence they put forth. I am going to ask my teacher inshaAllah, I am quite willing to learn and wanna know what I have missed, 'cause that's quite big.

How is it unfair to be considered what your father is? And who says you disregard what your mother is? Nobody, you just put that into the equation.

Islam = father's lineage
Judaism = mother's lineage.

In most cultures, the tribe is carried on by the males side, so if he gives birth to daughters, then she will be what her father is. The boy carries on the tribes name, or the family name, that's why you see boys being so prized in many cultures because no matter who they marry their kids will be their tribe. As for the daughters, they're usually given a man, most likely of the same tribe, so she can give birth to kids that will carry on her tribes name. Sometimes though, a woman is disowned because she ''married out of her tribe''. And why is that? Because the kids won't be of lineage, but of her husbands.

This has nothing to do with nationalism or racism, who says one feels superior to another person or hates another person based on race or nationality? Lol, you're just following your father's lineage (I think the word you were actually looking for was ''tribalism'', but even so, that doesn't
fit what we're talking about).

 

[Whatsthepoint]

How is it unfair to be considered what your father is? And who says you disregard what your mother is? Nobody, you just put that into the equation.

Islam = father's lineage
Judaism = mother's lineage.

In most cultures, the tribe is carried on by the males side, so if he gives birth to daughters, then she will be what her father is. The boy carries on the tribes name, or the family name, that's why you see boys being so prized in many cultures because no matter who they marry their kids will be their tribe. As for the daughters, they're usually given a man, most likely of the same tribe, so she can give birth to kids that will carry on her tribes name. Sometimes though, a woman is disowned because she ''married out of her tribe''. And why is that? Because the kids won't be of lineage, but of her husbands.

This has nothing to do with nationalism or racism, who says one feels superior to another person or hates another person based on race or nationality? Lol, you're just following your father's lineage (I think the word you were actually looking for was ''tribalism'', but even so, that doesn't
fit what we're talking about).

It's neither racism nor nationalism. It's sexism, male-ism if you will.

 

[crayon]

^^I don't think I've ever heard of that before... Do you know any hadiths that corroborate what you're saying?

(to sis ameena, not whatsthepoint)

 

[Al-Zaara]

^ Yeah, sorry about nationalism, I meant to say sexism, I am reading right now about nationalism, so the terms got confused, my apologies.

In most cultures, the tribe is carried on by the males side, so if he gives birth to daughters, then she will be what her father is. The boy carries on the tribes name, or the family name, that's why you see boys being so prized in many cultures because no matter who they marry their kids will be their tribe. As for the daughters, they're usually given a man, most likely of the same tribe, so she can give birth to kids that will carry on her tribes name. Sometimes though, a woman is disowned because she ''married out of her tribe''. And why is that? Because the kids won't be of lineage, but of her husbands.

That's culture not an wide-spread religion to fit all people (Islam). In my culture it isn't like that for example, but in yours for example it is, but both follow Islam, so why would something part of your culture be described as Islamic while mine wouldn't? Islamically, religiously, it doesn't say anything to it, it's culture based. You can't say it is Islamic to be called black just 'cause your Dad is black and your Mum is white, example.

 

[Intisar]

^^I don't think I've ever heard of that before... Do you know any hadiths that corroborate what you're saying?

(to sis ameena, not whatsthepoint)

Inshaa'Allaah I'll find some.

^ Yeah, sorry about nationalism, I meant to say sexism, I am reading right now about nationalism, so the terms got confused, my apologies.

That's culture not an wide-spread religion to fit all people (Islam). In my culture it isn't like that for example, but in yours for example it is, but both follow Islam, so why would something part of your culture be described as Islamic while mine wouldn't? Islamically, religiously, it doesn't say anything to it, it's culture based. You can't say it is Islamic to be called black just 'cause your Dad is black and your Mum is white, example.

Hmmm, and you know this for a fact right?

Just checking.

 

[Al-Zaara]

Hmmm, and you know this for a fact right?

For me absolutely it is a fact, this is how I was taught. I'll be waiting for the evidence you have for this, inshaAllah, will then show my teacher too. =)

 

[Intisar]

For me absolutely it is a fact, this is how I was taught. I'll be waiting for the evidence you have for this, inshaAllah, will then show my teacher too. =)

Okay so what you're telling me is, it's a ''fact'' because you were taught that from when you were young?

 

[Al-Zaara]

Okay so what you're telling me is, it's a ''fact'' because you were taught that from when you were young?

I am waiting for your evidence first, then you can question mine. I did say for me, now the same question applies to you too, innit, I'll rather wait for you to bring forth the evidence to your claim. And then, I can bring forth my evidence if that is what you want, we can discuss.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

There was this black guy, married a white woman, had a son, who according to you would be considered black. He then married a woman, had a son, who according to what you say would also be considered black. The line could go on and on, a completely white child would be considered black.
Doesn't make to much sense to me..

Anyone care to islamically evaluate this?

 

[Banu_Hashim]

OK. This is what I found in a book called;

بحشتي زيور
Heavenly Ornaments
A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
Volume One

By
Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi

Translated by
Maulana Muhammad Mahomedy.

Page 441, Under the section headed "Equality in Lineage":

" 2. In matters of lineage, the lineage of the father is considered and not the mother. If the father is a Sayyid, the son is also a Sayyid; and if the father is a Shaykh, the son is also a Shaykh - irrespective of what the mother may be. If a Sayyid marries a woman who is not a Sayyid, their son will be regarded as a Sayyid. This son will be equal in status to all other Sayyids. Although the son whose father and mother are both from a noble family is respected more, according to the Shariah they will be regarded as relatives or of the same social standing."

Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion. Interpret it as you wish.

 

[S_87]

im not sure if sister ameena means this but from what i understand her to be saying: the mothers lineage is not disregarded but lets look at the example of Muhammed :arabic5: how far back can we go in his lineage? pretty much all the way back right. we can name his forefathers or if not, we can easily find out. How many of us can name the women from who his :arabic5: lineage is from?
for the tribe thing in particular, we dont have tribes so cant comment on that, but in islam a child is from his/her fathers tribe. Again the example of Muhammed :arabic5: can be used.

 

[islamirama]

As far as religion is concerned. In Islam, the child follows the religion of the father, regardless of what the faith of the mother is. In Judaism, it's the opposite. A jew's mother's child will always be jewish.

As far as lineage is concerned this is a culture, traditions and customs aspect of the society. Generally the girl is considered marrying into so and so's family, not the other way around. It's the girl that goes to the groom's house and it is the girl that has to get used to the customs and ways of the groom's side of the family. So in a sense, the children do take after the father as far as not just religion, but culture, customs and traditions are concerned.

The belief of you belong to your father's lineage does exist in the east, and this the eastern custom belief that is common among muslims and non-muslims. A child is known by his father's name, therefore he is also known by his father's tribe, family name and heritage as well as race. Even in the west, you're more likely to hear "Son of black man" or "son of arab man" or "son of a paki" but you'll never here something like "Son of white/black/indian/arab/etc woman". That's just the way the world turns. Which is why many out there that won't marry their daughters outside of thier culture but will allow their son to since he'll be bring her into his culture and race.

This is why the pagan arabs made fun of the Prophet (saw) saying that he has only daughters and no son, so his lineage will end. But Allah made the prophet's lineage continue through his daughters and it is from this very lineage the Mahdi will come.

 

[Ansariyah]

My culture My Culture, My culture. Ur culture isn't ur one way ticket to Jannah. Islam Is InshaAllah! It's part of who u are no doubt, but to speak of it this highly n bein hell bent isn't a pretty sight to see.

There are spouses who are of different races/cultures who get married, have beautiful children, n there is nothing missing in their marriage except that there is more gain MashaAllah! Islam binds people, culture doesn't. The language of Love, understanding, Mercy, is wat unifies hearts.

I am quite mixed, its all good in the hoood lol.

 

[crayon]

As far as religion is concerned. In Islam, the child follows the religion of the father, regardless of what the faith of the mother is. In Judaism, it's the opposite. A jew's mother's child will always be jewish.

As far as lineage is concerned this is a culture, traditions and customs aspect of the society.

Yup, that's what I know as well.

As for the kids taking their father lineage, even if they do, there's no reason for lineage to be considered the same thing as customs and traditions. There's nothing haram with mixing between both cultures (as long as nothing goes against islam, of course), and that's generally what happens when 2 people of different cultures marry. If the mother or father want to totally give up their culture and let the other person have full authority, I also don't think there's anything wrong with that. Ultimately, it depends on the specific two people, and how willing each person is to adapt to the way of life of the other person.
So while the father carrying the lineage might be important when it comes to tribes, traditional outdated social classes, "sayiids" and "shaykhs" whatever that is (i'm guessing just the names for the different social classes in the old arab world), in this day and age, I don't think it matters too much.

 

[Muezzin]

Probably a lame thread title but by that I mean intercultural marriages...

What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?

Do you think that when it comes to us being parents, them prejudices will have vanished or do you think there is wisdom in sticking to your own culture/background etc and never experiencing the richness of another

Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why??

Have you personally married out of the culture and if yes did you face any difficulties/hardships/barriers?

WassalamuAlaykum

Well, one of my uncles married an Afro-Carribean lady, and another uncle married a White (or is Caucasian more PC?) lady.

I'm not married. I personally couldn't care less about the colour of a spouse's skin or her culture - as long as they're good, friendly, decent people I'd be like, 'Great! Let's get married so one of us can drain the other's bank account!'

^ Sayyids are referred to as being the descendants of the Prophet SAW (I think Sayyid might be a desi term). From what I have read/learnt on the topic of sayyids, it is incumbent for us to show all of them respect, even if they may not be the best of muslims/people.

I'd agree with that if it also states that all people must be afforded respect, regardless of their (alleged) gene pool. I don't know if it does or not because I haven't read it.

This lineage stuff sounds decidedly dodgy.