Morality & Obedience

[Eric H]

Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Morality is doing what is right NO MATTER what you are told. And obedience is doing what you are told NO MATTER what is right. It genuinely scares me when people can't tell the two apart.

But how do you morally fight oppression? People in power virtually turn the peasants into slaves, this was possibly the catalyst for the French and Russian revolutions. The aristocrats enjoyed great wealth and power, they had no reason to give any of this up for the great unwashed.

I agree that killing off the aristocracy is morally unjust, but how else could the poor gain some kind of justice? If there were justice in the Middle East today, then I believe ISIS would not exist, I believe the emergence of ISIS; is very much the same as the causes for the French and Russian revolutions.

The rich don't really need justice in the same way the poor need justice; they just pay for what they want, they can even pay for million dollar toys they don't need. The poor just watch their children go to bed hungry, they watch forty percent of their children die before they reach their fifth birthday.

In a way, it is the rich and powerful who exploit others, when they are immoral, they eventually force the poor to become immoral and retaliate.

I look at Bill Gates as being totally immoral, he underpays his employees, he overcharges his customers, and the odd seventy billion dollars left over goes in his back pocket. I call this legalised theft. He gives away a few pennies to help some people, so he can look to be the good guy. But the small change he gives away, is still the money he has gained by legalised theft, morally this should not be his money to give away in the first place. He gives away a pittance, so he can still remain the richest man on Earth much of the time.

The biggest tragedy is, we look up to Bill Gates as a role model, selfish greed looks good. This goes against God's justice, he hears the cry of the poor.

In the spirit of praying for the poor and oppressed.

Eric

 

[czgibson]

Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?

Greetings,

I look at Bill Gates as being totally immoral, he underpays his employees, he overcharges his customers, and the odd seventy billion dollars left over goes in his back pocket. I call this legalised theft. He gives away a few pennies to help some people, so he can look to be the good guy. But the small change he gives away, is still the money he has gained by legalised theft, morally this should not be his money to give away in the first place. He gives away a pittance, so he can still remain the richest man on Earth much of the time.

I'm not sure why you are attacking Bill Gates. You may be aware that he has stepped down from Microsoft and now his main focus is the charitable foundation he set up with his wife. Bill Gates has given away more wealth than almost anyone in human history.

Peace

 

[Serinity]

The question that "Would you obey God if He commanded you to do immoral actions?" is illogical, and a fallacy.

Firstly:

you are assuming that God could possibly command evil, don't you see the fallacy in that? Satan is who orders evil and immorality.

Any sane man who would think of God, would think of a Kind and Just one, if you say otherwise, you've invented a lie, as you speak of Allah, what you know not, you speak from a position of ignorance.

It is inherent in our nature to think good of Allah / God.

How do you know that killing a person is wrong? you feel it is wrong? But what about a psychopath, he thinks it is ok, so is it ok for him, and not for you?

where do you get your morality from? we say morality is from God, and that God knows best what is right and wrong. And you base it on your morality, which is susceptible to corruption?

so morality to you is subjective? who then determines what is right and what is wrong? we say it is God.

we are not set in stone of what is right or wrong. Killing innocents is wrong because God said so. yes, majority of mankind know this, but as humans we are corruptable, and may think subjectively and kill.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Obedience to Allah :swt: and Morality go hand in hand.

Allah :swt: says:

Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded. [16:90]
And fulfill the covenant of Allah when you have taken it, [O believers], and do not break oaths after their confirmation while you have made Allah , over you, a witness. Indeed, Allah knows what you do. [16:91]


In another Surah, Allah :swt: says,

And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" [7:28]

 

[Eric H]

Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

I'm not sure why you are attacking Bill Gates.

I am not sure why you would want to defend him, his wealth comes at a cost to the poor.

Ok Microsoft has made three billionaires and around twelve thousand millionaires. But they still outsource production to China where workers are paid slave wages and work under harsh conditions. In fact paying Chinese workers $466 per month is too expensive, they are looking to move to Vietnam and only pay $145 per month.
If Bill Gates truly had a heart for the poor, he would look after his poorest workers first, he should have a moral obligation. Instead he exploits his poor workers so he can look like the wonderful philanthropist the media makes him out to be.

Amid a large restructuring of its Nokia unit, Microsoft is also joining many technology companies moving manufacturing from China to Vietnam. Microsoft is also moving operations to Brazil and Mexico.
Microsoft said it will lay off 18,000 employees, with many of them being factory workers in China. According to Stephen Elop, chief of Microsoft's devices unit, the software giant will move its device manufacturing and marketing operations to markets where Windows Phone has some traction
What's happened to China is simple. There's a middle class emerging and wages are going up. A factory worker in Hanoi makes $145 a month compared to $466 in Beijing, according to the Japan External Trade Organization (JETRO).
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-moves-nokia-manufacturing-from-china-to-vietnam/

Originally posted by czgibson;
You may be aware that he has stepped down from Microsoft and now his main focus is the charitable foundation he set up with his wife. Bill Gates has given away more wealth than almost anyone in human history.

Your link paints a very cosy picture of Bill, he intends to give his wealth away, but will keep a few billion for his family. It’s not cheap to live in a $150 million home. He intends to give away $1.8 billion over the next six years, he will earn more than that over the next six years. He is still listed as the richest man on Earth, so when is he going to seriously give away his wealth?

In the spirit of praying for the poor and oppressed.

Eric

 

[Pygoscelis]

like for example, halal slaughter. After reading about how an animal is killed according to halal means, I realized "wow...that causes the animal to suffer a lot." But it's not my job to care if it causes the animal to suffer since that it what God says to do.

Here we have an example of somebody who believes God has told him to cause animals to suffer. His evolved sense of empathy and fairness tells him this is wrong, but his religion convinces him that it isn't his job to care if the animal suffers, since God says to do it. All of you who are saying that God would not demand suffering or that God is by definition good... I really don't know what to say to you. I'm sure that you imagine that there must be some higher purpose everytime you hear and imagine that God wants something nasty. I suppose that is a form of "faith", which I see as mere excuse making since I don't believe such a God exists. I also see this frequently in Christians as they try to do acrobatics to explain the horrors commanded by God in their bible.

God has already said that Revelation has stopped and so therefore there is no reason to believe any modern person's claim that God is talking to him/her.

If more believers adopted this position it looks like an interesting way to sidestep the problem that I see, but only a little. You would still have some ambiguous and hotly contested "holy" scripture and traditions etc. There are hundreds of different religions and dozens of denominations within each that disagree on what God wants. And what some of them believe God wants is not in any way moral.

That said, you also seem to believe that Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) had done a moral wrong in trying to obey God when he decided to sacrifice his son for obedience to God. But that's such a literalist interpretation. What I understand from the task with which God tasked Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) is to see whether Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) is owner or owned of the world. See, when you own the latest model car or have the best significant other you can imagine, do you begin to be possessed by them? Or are they that in which you feel blessed to possess but would still be okay if you didn't have them? Case in point are Wall Street executives who jump out of buildings when they can't face the stress of heavy financial loss.

Of course we start with a literalist interpretation. Then we can look at more poetic interpretations. But by doing the latter we are infusing our own already existing moral values. We have seen interpretation of many holy scriptures change over the decades and centuries to fit with the cultural norms of the era. I know that a lot of religious people like to pretend that their religions never changed, but they have and they do, and we can see it very clearly if we look. Christians don't burn witches at the sake anymore even though "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". The new pope is a drastic change from how the previous pope looked at things. Existing sects change and new sects emerge over time. Karen Armstrong's "History of God" is a pretty good read on this.

But however you spin the Abraham and Isaac story or the Jephthah and his daughter story or the story of Job, I really don't see how it could be a positive moral story. In Abe & Isaac you've got obedience directly coming up against morality with obedience trumping (even though God is playing a trick on Abe and Isaac and lets them back out at the last moment). The most generous interpretation I can give Abe & Isaac, is that somehow Abe knew all along that God wouldn't kill Isaac and would step in at the last moment, and God was testing Abe's trust in him not to be a monster and accept a child sacrifice. But then in Jephthah you've got God actually accepting a child sacrifice (Jepthah does kill his daughter for God and God doesn't tell him not to). In Job you've got God and the Devil settling a bet on how blindly loyal to God Job is, killing his family, ruining his life, and generally torturing him like a mad tyrant concerned only with his own ego. In each case the human lives of the people who are slaughtered (or would be in the case of Isaac) are disregarded completely. In Job's case, after he proves his loyalty, God gives him a new family, as if that somehow makes up for the innocent people he killed.

And of course you've got the immoral stories of Noah, Passover (to include the Jews here), Lot pimping out his daughters and his wife turning to salt for merely "looking back", etc. And you have amoral stories also showing obedience praised over morality, such as the story of Adam and Eve, the Ten Commandments, and even the story of Jesus sacrifice, and vicarious redemption, which I am very happy to see Islam doesn't subscribe to as Christianity does. The theme of obedience over all else, and over morality, is I would say THE central theme in these Abrahamic religions. That Islam speaks in terms of submission and slavery to Allah is telling.

Morals which comes from humans and their logic are not set in stone, they are fluid and change according to time, culture, place. What might be accepted in a specific time or place would be unacceptable in another - they are not permanent and are largely influenced by society or culture. Morals from God are permanent and don't change according to people's culture or society.

Oh but they do. Your morality is no more objective than mine is. They both start in the same place (empathy and fairness), and they are both influenced by social and cultural forces, one of which is religion. It is just a question of whether we try to think for ourselves and make our own moral judgments based on our empathy and fairness senses, or whether we farm our moral decision making out so we can feel less responsible, and claim some authority figure, be it King or God has made the decision for us, and can't be wrong.

Pygoscelis, I know we differ, but people can and do live a moral life through faith in God.

Eric, I don't believe that any of your moral inclinations come from your religious belief. You have them already. You are already an empathic, kind, and fairminded person. Your religion in a lens through which you see it and that helps you focus it and encourages you to push it forward, which is good, but it isn't the root source of it. And if it was; if you were only doing kind things because you were told to by an authority figure, that would not be moral behaviour at all, as it would be arbitrary and mere obedience. Doing what is good for the sake of doing good - that is morality. Doing it for the sake of reward or to obey may look moral, but isn't so much.

And in your case, I don't believe for a second that if you genuinely thought God directly commanded you to commit atrocity that you'd do it. You wouldn't. You are too decent a person to be a nazi or daesh soldier.

I agree that there are plenty of people who do good things and are encouraged to do more, or watch over themselves from doing bad things because of their religion. This is great, and is a reason why I am not totally pushing for the eradication of religion altogether. But other people are motivated to do very immoral things through their faith in God. These folks fill the headlines from time to time, and vary from people killing their "demonically possessed" children, to people denying blood transfusions to their children (killing them), to people murdering cartoonists, to people turning against their children and kicking them out of the home for being gay, etc etc. This brings us back to the quote that started this thread.

You're wrong. Humans don't have innate empathy. We don't grow up empathetic. Empathy is a learned trait. Our morality stems from religion.

That isn't what science has found:

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_compassionate_instinct

http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/dm...ot/McDonald-Messinger_Empathy Development.pdf

you are assuming that God could possibly command evil, don't you see the fallacy in that? Satan is who orders evil and immorality.

No. I don't believe God exists, so I can't be saying that. What i am saying is that people can be convinced that God commands what appear to be immoral acts, but they trust they must be moral because God says so. This is a farming out of moral decision making and leads to statements like that in the OP.

Any sane man who would think of God, would think of a Kind and Just one, if you say otherwise, you've invented a lie

This is demonstrably untrue, as can be seen in modern religion as well as ancient. The Greek gods were known to be cruel.

It is inherent in our nature to think good of Allah / God.

It is if you pre-define God as good, regardless of what horribly bad things God commands. Those horribly bad tings then become "good" if you are putting obedience over actual morality.

How do you know that killing a person is wrong? you feel it is wrong?

I know that killing a person is wrong because I have an evolved sense of empathy and fairness. I have an ability to see myself in others and identify with them and feel their pain even with mirror neurons. And I know that if we allow people to kill people without us caring or doing anything about it, then I could be next killed.

where do you get your morality from?

I answered this already. You can go back and read and respond to that answer if you like, but I won't keep repeating myself over and over.

we say morality is from God, and that God knows best what is right and wrong. And you base it on your morality, which is susceptible to corruption?

Even if God exists as you believe he does, God belief is susceptible to corruption, is it not? How else do we have so many different religions and denominations within religions?

Killing innocents is wrong because God said so.

And what if God says the opposite? Or what if people believe God says the opposite? What if people interpret "innocent" in very narrow terms? What if there are passages in holy books that say to kill the kafir, kill the gays, kill the apostates, kill adulterers, kill disobedient children, kill the neighbouring tribe and take their virgin women for yourselves, kill the unbeliever wherever you find them, not suffer a witch to live, stone people to death for 100 different reasons? Let us not pretend that the Quran or Bible or Torah is written by pacifist Jains. I can open these books randomly and odds are I will find a passage in there telling me to kill somebody for some completely unjustifiable reason.

 

[Serinity]

you are confused, Pygo. no person who says "I do this immorality cuz God says so" is doing it because God says so, they are lying. May Allah :swt: guide you. Ameen.

keep in mind Allah :swt: gave us morality. it is us that corrupt ourselves.

Morality and obedience go hand in hand, as Allah :swt: only commands that which is good, and forbids that which is evil.

And people invent lies about Allah. And false deities are but false deities, no value at all.

God doesn't command evil, so what ifs are a waste of time. Those who misinterpret the Qur'an are themselves to blame.

"What if God commands you evil?" isn't even a question worth answering, as God would never command evil.

those who associate partners with Allah, may Allah protect us from that, are lying and they aren't even deities, they are erroneous lies.

What do you mean belief in God is susceptible to corruption? If you mean that people can deviate from the truth, then yes. But God Himself is free from all corruption.

There are many different religions because people follow their desires rather than what God told them. They follow their own interpretation. Misleading themselves by their desires.

 

[Pygoscelis]

There are many different religions because people follow their desires rather than what God told them. They follow their own interpretation. Misleading themselves by their desires.

And they think they have the one true understanding of God(s), just like you think. And they probably also think that you are misleading yourself by your desires, just like you think of them. You are each evidence to one another that people can very much have a wrong and/or corrupt understanding of what God is and what God commands. You both think the other is wrong. I simply agree with both of you on that.

 

[crimsontide06]

Here we have an example of somebody who believes God has told him to cause animals to suffer. His evolved sense of empathy and fairness tells him this is wrong, but his religion convinces him that it isn't his job to care if the animal suffers, since God says to do it. All of you who are saying that God would not demand suffering or that God is by definition good... I really don't know what to say to you. I'm sure that you imagine that there must be some higher purpose everytime you hear and imagine that God wants something nasty. I suppose that is a form of "faith", which I see as mere excuse making since I don't believe such a God exists. I also see this frequently in Christians as they try to do acrobatics to explain the horrors commanded by God in their bible.

All animals suffer when killed.... whether it be from head bolts, bullet...etc. There is just no way around it.

 

[Serinity]

If done correctly they won't suffer, In shaa' Allah,

besides, Allah :swt: is All-Just, Most Merciful, He :swt: sent The Prophet Muhammad :saw: upon whom Allah :swt: has bestowed great moral character.

Allah :swt: is Perfect, so there is no need to hesitate when obeying Allah :swt:

 

[M.I.A.]

Aside from whether or not this kind of slaughter is the most humane, this sort of logic I quoted of you is the kind of religious logic that scares me the most. What if it was human suffering you thought to be ordained by God? Would you still be indifferent? And what if God told you to sacrifice your son on an altar or fly a plane into a building? I hope at some point along the line you would start to follow your own internal sense of morality instead of mere obedience to what you think is power.

Sick and tired of this misinformation.

The asking of sacrifice and the accepting of sacrifice are two different things..

Don't worry, maybe in a few more years.


Don't confuse power with servitude, even a judge presides over the cases that are presented.

The crimes have long before been committed.

 

[Pygoscelis]

All animals suffer when killed.... whether it be from head bolts, bullet...etc. There is just no way around it.

And there are carnivorous animals that are unable to process plants and have to kill and eat other animals or die a horrible death from starvation themselves. And some insects are especially terrifying in what they do to other animals as a necessary part of their life cycle. Curious that a loving god would set things up like that eh?

But that isn't my point here. My point isn't about what method of killing is kindest, or even if we should be killing animals and eating meat at all. My point is the attitude of "God says its ok, so its not my job to care or worry about it" is the removing moral agency from yourself and farming it out to somebody else, in this case an imagined God that you have convinced yourself must be good and can't be wrong. I find that frightening.

 

[Serinity]

And they think they have the one true understanding of God(s), just like you think. And they probably also think that you are misleading yourself by your desires, just like you think of them. You are each evidence to one another that people can very much have a wrong and/or corrupt understanding of what God is and what God commands. You both think the other is wrong. I simply agree with both of you on that.

In Islam, it is clear who and what God is, there is no dispute except for those who are deviant and defiant. In Islam we don't care what people think, we only care about what Allah :swt: says about Himself.

In Islam, when a matter has been concluded, the believers say "we hear and obey" when Allah :swt: decrees a matter.

Islam is clear, and the path is clear. There are no mysteries in Islam, we know who Allah :swt: is, and what He :swt: wants.

There can never be 2 rights, and in Islam we go by what Allah :swt: says in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is always right.

you think very subjectively about this.

Lets take science, do we go by "I think the universe is like this!" the other "no my understanding is like this" and leave them like that? with constant disputes? no.

we make observations by what is around us, and the one with most compelling proof, 'wins'.

Will you agree with both of those:

Person A: The Earth is a square.
Person B: No it is spherical.

No, why?

 

[M.I.A.]

Some say your brain chemistry is affect by bacteria in your gut..

The big nasty may not always seem that way.

Other parasites drive the victim to climb trees to the highest point.. so they can burst out of it to spread spores.

Veeeery clever evolution.

On the other hand I've seen go pro's of charging bears that suddenly change direction and lions that wait for children's banks to be turned before pouncing.

Nice windows are nice.

Unfortunately I still have no idea about the double slit experiment.

 

[Serinity]

we know God by our morals, and fitrah. your problem is, that you try to separate God from morality, as if to say, God orders immorality, which is a lie you invented,

so yes, any sane man who thinks of God, would think of a Kind and Just one, to say otherwise, you'd have lied. If you say God is evil, bring your proof, which there is no proof to.

Yes God created evil, that doesn't make God evil. God created us such, we'd be able to recognize Him.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

My point isn't about what method of killing is kindest, or even if we should be killing animals and eating meat at all. My point is the attitude of "God says its ok, so its not my job to care or worry about it" is the removing moral agency from yourself and farming it out to somebody else, in this case an imagined God that you have convinced yourself must be good and can't be wrong. I find that frightening.

If God is good, then why would God want us to be bad?

In the spirit of searching for a God,

Eric

 

[Serinity]

you are the one imposing the Idea of an angry and cruel God. we aren't.

you object to the idea of being cruel and stuff, yet what you don't realise is that God Himself, created us to recognize Him. He :swt: created us good,

Think of it like this:

God = Commands Good and Justice.
Satan = commands evil, immorality, and oppression.

Now, if anyone now comes and says "God is cruel, etc." we know that this is untrue, and a lie from him, either by his own desires, or Satan who deluded him.

you want to be good, and in your mindset you think "for one to be good, one has to disobey God" or something, which is a fallacy. For God is good. This isn't something we made up. you are the one making up the idea of a cruel God.

we say what the Qur'an say, and Allah :swt: in the Qur'an says He :swt: orders Good and moral conduct, etc.

If you truly seek God, then seek Him.

basically those who say God is cruel stand on nothing and has no proof to that. They speak from themselves, and God doesn't speak to anyone except to Prophets and Messengers.

So if anyone comes and says "God commanded me to kill innocent and wage havoc on civilians" we know he is a liar, and it was Satan, not God. Those who confuse what Satan says with what God says, are themselves confused.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Serenity,

I am not talking about actual Gods, whether they exist, if they are good or bad, or what they may demand. I am talking about misconceptions of God, misconceptions of who he is and what he wants, etc. The fact is that these misconceptions exist. Islam is not the only religion, and people who claim to be Muslims do not all agree with your interpretation of it. Forum rules apparently require me to say that your Allah exists and is all good, and that these other misunderstandings are the work of Satan, and that is fine. My point remains. People are rationalizing away what they would otherwise know is immoral (see the quote in the OP) due to obedience to what they think are the commands of their Gods, or faith that their Gods must have some higher purpose making what appears to be bad actually good. You and I both know that they are wrong, because the Gods they believe in are not real Gods (ie, not your Allah) and the commands they think are from their Gods are not real divine commands (ie, not commands from your Allah). Can you not see a problem with this?

 

[greenhill]

Pretty long and wide topic.. but initial bits, what I understand as being the basis of the subsequent elaborations, is about nabi Ibrahim pbuh.

For it must also be told that Allah granted nabi Ibrahim's dua for zuriat with condition. That when the time comes for his sacrifice to remember the pledge. It was a test and he passed the test.

It was not that nabi Ibrahim never knew Allah was going to test him and that this news came as a surprise. He was expecting it.

But what I read about these "voices in the head" just tell you actions, but there were no prior covenant for the requirement of these actions. So be weary . .

eace:

 

[Serinity]

Serenity,

I am not talking about actual Gods, whether they exist, if they are good or bad, or what they may demand. I am talking about misconceptions of God, misconceptions of who he is and what he wants, etc. The fact is that these misconceptions exist. Islam is not the only religion, and people who claim to be Muslims do not all agree with your interpretation of it. Forum rules apparently require me to say that your Allah exists and is all good, and that these other misunderstandings are the work of Satan, and that is fine. My point remains. People are then doing bad things or rationalizing away what they would otherwise know is immoral (see the quote in the OP) due to obedience to what they think are the commands of their Gods, or faith that their Gods must have some higher purpose making what appears to be bad actually good. You and I both know that they are wrong, because the Gods they believe in are not real Gods (ie, not your Allah). Can you not see a problem with this?

There are people who use the name of God, in order to do bad, they mask their bad deeds, and wrongdoings by saying "god said so"

they kill people saying it is for the sake of God, etc. Do you really believe those people? That they do immoralities for God's sake?

They take their desires as God, and excuse themselves that way from moral accountability.

we know The Qur'an is the Word of Allah :swt: 100%, so when He :swt: commands a thing, and it is explicit, we have no say in the matter, and say "we hear and obey"

Allah :swt: is Just, and says in the Qur'an that He :swt: only orders righteousness, etc.

Allah :swt: is truthful, and never lies. So what may appear to us as bad for us, may be good for us, and so on.

we are not all-knowing, etc. so to think of one self as more knowing and wise than God would be arrogant.

There are those who talk for themselves, and then say "god said so" they lie.

The quote above, you can't take as an example. Because Allah :swt: in The Qur'an commanded us to slaughter in a certain way. we know Allah :swt: is All-Just and Most Merciful.

Allah :swt: created sheeps and other animals for us to eat.

but say a murderer who is not a Prophet, goes and kills innocent people for no reason, and says "God told me" is a liar.