Mormon vs Muslim View on Atonement/Sin

[CleansingWater]

In response to a question in another thread (Welcome to the forum, CleansingWater (I love your name).

Perhaps you could share the Mormon view on this? I'd be very interested to hear it. Only if you want to, of course. No pressure.
(It would have to be in the Comparative Religion section though -))

The Mormon view on atonement and sin is generally similar to the traditional/orthodox Christian viewpoint. Mormons typically view the atonement of Christ as having occurred in both the Garden of Gethsemane and the Cross. Mormons have a different view of the events of the Garden of Eden than traditional Christians. Mormons believe that if Adam and Eve didn't "Fall", then they would not have been able to have children, and we wouldn't have existed. So, for them to "be fruitful and multiply", they had to eat from the Tree. The issue of God giving two allegedly contradictory commandments is something that many have issues with in Mormonism.

Mormons don't hold to "original sin". It is believed that all are born good, and that if an infant dies, they go to the highest Heaven. At the age of 8, we become accountable for our sins, and repentance and baptism become necessary. Although Mormons reject original sin (one of the articles of faith is that we will only be punished for our own sins, not those of others), they still believe that Christ's atoning sacrifice was needed so that we can be forgiven, and it is only through that sacrifice that we can receive eternal life.

Hope that helps! For me, I find that the Muslim view of sin and forgiveness makes a lot more sense to me. I'm also finding that Jews reject the concept of God having to come down and die for us so that we can be forgiven of sins, which is interesting in light of how Christians want to present the sacrifice of Christ in a Jewish context of blood sacrifices needed to atone for sins.

 

[MustafaMc]

One thing about Christianity that stands out to me is the requirement for one to either live a perfect life (that no one can do) or to accept the only possible means for reconciliation with God which is the sacrifice that they believe Jesus (as God Incarnate) made on the cross. This negates God's ability to forgive sin straight away merely through the repentance of the sinner. The parables of the Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple and the Prodigal Son come to mind as contradicting this concept. Looking backwards, Christians place their trust with absolute confidence in the Atoning Sacrifice for their salvation while Muslims hope and pray for the forgiveness of God and His mercy on Judgment Day with some degree of uncertainty. The reason for this uncertainty is that we realize our imperfection, inability to judge the purity of our own heart and do not know the state of our faith upon our death.

I assume the same conclusions about Christianity can be drawn from the Mormon beliefs. Other than the lack of Original Sin, do you see any similarities with Islam?

 

[Aprender]

The issue of God giving two allegedly contradictory commandments is something that many have issues with in Mormonism.

It's similar with the Jehovah's Witnesses too. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jesus was God but rather just the son of God. And because of this people have had issues with the Jehovah's Witnesses--among other things like not celebrating Christmas or birthdays, or any holiday for that matter. Not saying the Pledge of Allegiance in American public schools.

These contradictions are also was sparked my interest in learning about earlier version of Christianity and what those taught. Which led me to study the Bible more and see how it was added to and tampered with over the years.

Mormons don't hold to "original sin". It is believed that all are born good, and that if an infant dies, they go to the highest Heaven.

This is very similar to what we believe as Muslims. When I was a Christian I was attracted to this in Islam. I always had an issue with pastors in Church teaching that children who've grown up in other cultures don't go to heaven.

Although Mormons reject original sin (one of the articles of faith is that we will only be punished for our own sins, not those of others), they still believe that Christ's atoning sacrifice was needed so that we can be forgiven, and it is only through that sacrifice that we can receive eternal life.

This is also similar to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe too. Except they don't believe Jesus (peace be upon him) was God but rather just the son of God only.


Have you ever read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover? While I was doing a comparison of the different sects of Christianity, I came across a copy of the book of Mormon and read quite a few chapters out of it but found it to be a bit difficult to grasp and get through. What is the historical setting for the Book of Mormon?

 

[CleansingWater]

One thing about Christianity that stands out to me is the requirement for one to either live a perfect life (that no one can do) or to accept the only possible means for reconciliation with God which is the sacrifice that they believe Jesus (as God Incarnate) made on the cross. This negates God's ability to forgive sin straight away merely through the repentance of the sinner. The parables of the Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple and the Prodigal Son come to mind as contradicting this concept. Looking backwards, Christians place their trust with absolute confidence in the Atoning Sacrifice for their salvation while Muslims hope and pray for the forgiveness of God and His mercy on Judgment Day with some degree of uncertainty. The reason for this uncertainty is that we realize our imperfection, inability to judge the purity of our own heart and do not know the state of our faith upon our death.

That's interesting, I'll definitely have to reread those parables.

It's really fascinating to me that Muslims (and, correct me if I'm wrong, Jews) don't believe that it's necessary for God to have incarnated as a man and suffered and died for our sins so that we can be forgiven of our sins and receive eternal life, while Christians believe that it was indeed necessary. I really need to read more on the Christian reasoning as to why. It's one of those things, at least for me, that you just accept, "makes sense", and you say you're grateful for. Yes, you still have to repent, make restitution, etc (at least in Mormonism), but the actual forgiveness and becoming clean is made possible only through Christ.

I assume the same conclusions about Christianity can be drawn from the Mormon beliefs. Other than the lack of Original Sin, do you see any similarities with Islam?

Well Mormons tend to agree with Catholics on the point that, while it's "known" that only through Christ's atoning sacrifice can one receive salvation, there is no "once saved always saved". Mormons very fervently believe in "enduring to the end", with continuous repentance.

As for other similarities with Islam (not sure if that's what you were asking), hmm, I don't really think so (though I'm still learning about Islam!). Well, from what I understand, Islam purports a sort of "Apostasy" of the Truth, right? If so, Mormons hold to the same belief (the "Great Apostasy"), which necessitated God calling a prophet, Joseph Smith, to "restore" the Truth and Christ's Church. Mormons believe that part of this Restoration was the translating of the Book of Mormon. So, at least on the surface, there is a similarity of having a prophet who restores the truth and gives new scripture. On the other hand, Mormons believe in "continuing revelation", so theoretically, there could be more scripture revealed. Also, Mormons believe in prophets after Joseph Smith. The President of the LDS Church is regarded as a "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator", as are his counselors and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Whether they actually function as prophets is another question, which indeed has led me, among many other reasons, to look elsewhere.

 

[CleansingWater]

This is very similar to what we believe as Muslims. When I was a Christian I was attracted to this in Islam. I always had an issue with pastors in Church teaching that children who've grown up in other cultures don't go to heaven.

Yes, interestingly enough, this is one thing that attracted me to Mormonism, and is something that I'm glad to see is also found in Islam. It just makes sense. The whole original sin concept, along with whether unbaptized infants go to Heaven or Hell (and speculating about a "Limbo" area for them) was all very troubling. I also find it interesting that Jews don't hold to it either, something I need to look into more.

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover? While I was doing a comparison of the different sects of Christianity, I came across a copy of the book of Mormon and read quite a few chapters out of it but found it to be a bit difficult to grasp and get through. What is the historical setting for the Book of Mormon?

Yes. It is hard to get through. Some parts you just have to force yourself through.

The Book of Mormon basically purports to be a record of ancient Israelites that migrated to the Americas (where exactly is the subject of much debate, books, articles, etc) during different migrations. Jesus Christ visits them at one point (Mormons believe this is what is meant by "other sheep" in the Bible), post New Testament Ascension. It begins around 600 BCE (though there are other parts that purport to be older), with a prophet seeing in a vision that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed, and that he had to take his family out of Jerusalem. They sail to the Americas and form essentially two factions (Nephites and Lamanites). The Book of Mormon basically contains some of the events surrounding these peoples, their leaders, prophets, etc. All of the records were compiled and abridged by the prophet Mormon's son, Moroni, who then hid the record in 421 CE. It was then purportedly discovered by Joseph Smith in 1823 after he was led to them by the angel Moroni (Mormon's have a different understanding of God, man, and angels than traditional Judeo-Christianity, as well as Islam).

 

[MustafaMc]

What words in the 4 gospels are recorded as being said by Jesus that support the concept of the necessity of a blood sacrifice for the remission of sin. Although I doubt he really said this, but Matthew 9:2 says, {Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”} I do not believe Jesus or any man has the authority to forgive sin, but the passage does serve to illustrate in the NT the lack of shedding blood for forgiveness of sin. If Christians see Jesus as God (astaghfir'Allah), then is this verse not a refutation of their central dogma?

Well, from what I understand, Islam purports a sort of "Apostasy" of the Truth, right?

I am not sure what you mean by this.

 

[MustafaMc]

It was then purportedly discovered by Joseph Smith in 1823 after he was led to them by the angel Moroni

Have you seen the original documents that he Joseph Smith discovered? Surely they have been preserved, right? Where are they stored?

 

[Aprender]

Yes, interestingly enough, this is one thing that attracted me to Mormonism,

Were you a part of another religion before Mormonism?

(Mormon's have a different understanding of God, man, and angels than traditional Judeo-Christianity, as well as Islam).

Oh? Like what? Sorry if I am annoying you with all of the questions. :embarrass

 

[CleansingWater]

I am not sure what you mean by this.

Well, Mormonism claims that the Truth, the Gospel, was revealed to Adam. After that, there have been cycles of apostasy, where the Truth gradually would be corrupted and rejected, requiring God to call people back into line and to restore the Truth. I thought that Islam says something similar, that the prophet Mohammed was called to reveal again the fulness of Truth, Truth that is as old as Adam, that was lost due to the corruptions of man over time. Sorry if I'm wrong.

Have you seen the original documents that he Joseph Smith discovered? Surely they have been preserved, right? Where are they stored?

No, the original documents, the golden plates upon which the Book of Mormon was allegedly written on anciently, were taken back by the angel Moroni, so the story goes. 11 men, and a few others (mostly family or close friends of Joseph Smith) all claimed to have seen and/or handled the plates, as well as witnessed the translation of the plates into English. Of course, there is much controversy surrounding the witnesses and what they really saw (and whether they were seen in a vision (with "spiritual eyes") or if it was a physical event.

 

[MustafaMc]

I thought that Islam says something similar, that the prophet Mohammed was called to reveal again the fulness of Truth, Truth that is as old as Adam, that was lost due to the corruptions of man over time. Sorry if I'm wrong.

Oh, I see. Yes, that is correct according to my understanding. The Truth that all prophets was calling people to worship One God.

Since the tablets were taken back, how was the information on them accurately retained and recorded. Was this original English document preserved? I could sorta see tablets being discovered, assuming the rest of the story is correct, but the translation into English would be a puzzlement to me. If the lost tribe of Israel came to America, wouldn't there be archaeological evidence for that?

 

[CleansingWater]

Oh, I see. Yes, that is correct according to my understanding. The Truth that all prophets was calling people to worship One God.

Interestingly, that would seem to be more in line with how traditional Christians (or at least Catholics) view the prophets throughout the ages: calling people back to worship the One God (though obviously the Trinity is an issue). Mormons, as you may know, have a differing understanding of God, purporting multiple Gods (believing the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three Gods that are one in purpose).

Since the tablets were taken back, how was the information on them accurately retained and recorded. Was this original English document preserved? I could sorta see tablets being discovered, assuming the rest of the story is correct, but the translation into English would be a puzzlement to me. If the lost tribe of Israel came to America, wouldn't there be archaeological evidence for that?

Yes, the original English document is preserved. The Book of Mormon has undergone various changes since it first was translated, with insertion and deletion of words or phrases, generally understood to help clarify what it is supposed to be saying. But the original English document is preserved, and critics refer to it for various reasons, while LDS apologists would refer to it to show how alleged "Hebraisms" were preserved.

As far as archaeological evidence, well, that's the subject of much debate (there are many books, articles, videos, etc on the topic). The problem is that the names of places in the Book of Mormon, except Jerusalem, are not found today. So, no one knows where it really took place (outside of the beginning of it, in Jerusalem). So, various Mormon apologists and scholars have come up with various theories as to where in "the Americas" it took place (and they also claim that it was a small population), and point to various archaeological points as evidence. It seems like among apologists, it is generally believed that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica, and they have various books and articles that they believe contain support for this conclusion.

 

[CleansingWater]

So interestingly, I found a website called "What Jews Believe" (after I saw someone mention it at a Catholic forum, and the person said that a Muslim had provided it for him) that has various points contrasting Jewish beliefs with Christian ones, points that I think are helpful in understanding Muslim perspectives on the issues of sin and forgiveness/atonement, as these points seem to be understood similarly by Jews and Muslims. It talks about things like whether someone can die for the sins of another, whether blood sacrifice is required for forgiveness of sins, God and human sacrifice, people being born pure without original sin, the oneness of God, and God becoming human. It's surprising to me how this all makes so much sense out of things that are troubling and confusing, and it's also helpful when trying to understand whether Christianity fits with the Judaism and OT teachings that it says it came out from.

Just had to share that!