Most Muslims don’t know Islam

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Zafran said:
Salaam

Not true - wills are techinical just like inheritence is - you need to go to a scholar to write one out - not everyone knows what goes in a will - most people probably dont even know the basics of wills in secular nations under a secular law - thats why they have lawyers to explain it to them.

Quran and hadith is techinical stuff as well so you need scholars to advice you of how to write one.

peace
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:sl:

Agreed. Most people would not have a clue about how to make a proper will, whether Islamic or not.

AhlaamBella said:
Quick question:

Why on EARTH do you keep pointing out they are Pakistani? :/
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It does not matter what nationality they are. In Islam, these concepts don't exist.
 
It is strange if a non-Muslim does not know why an apple falls out of a tree he is told to look in a physics book. If a Muslim is asked the same question he is told he does not know Islam as he can not give the Islamic reason.

The world is a very big place and each of us live very diverse lives. We can all strive to apply Islam into all we do, but no one person will ever know the Islamic rulings on every thing. All any of us can do is to seek out that which keeps our life halal and concentrate on living a halal life. None of us will ever be perfect and know everything, but then again we need not be perfect to live a halal life.
 
:sl:

Its been a while since I posted, and usually I don't bother getting caught up in these silly arguments or disagreements. However, I feel I must write something here (then probably disappear for a few more months)

When I became Muslim, I took some Muslims girls as friends. As any person in a similar situation would do, I looked at the way they led their life and tried to learn from them (alongside reading books etc) It is clear to me that there ARE indeed many misconceptions among Muslims as well as non-Muslims but as Uncle Woodrow pointed out, none of us are perfect and we are all striving towards making ourselves better.

Thinker, I understand how you might draw this conclusion but it is important you keep studying the religion and try not to draw final conclusions. Continually keeping an open mind will help you a lot. In the past 8 years I have drawn conclusions about certain things within Islam, only to have my conclusion shattered to pieces and then remade again.

An open mind, and a keen heart for understanding I think is the way forward.

Peace and Blessings to everyone(until my next post, be it soon or not)
 
Thinker said:
Of course I cannot make a judgment on what ‘most’ Muslims know based upon one couple, so why do I say that? My comments on Islam have often been cast aside on the basis that I can’t possible be qualified to make any observations on Islam because I am not Muslim and I have often suspected I know more about Islam than most Muslims.

actually, i cast aside your opinions because i have a very low opinion of you.

Now there’s that word ‘most’ again. Most Muslims have been exposed to Islam teaching for longer than me and that alone should mean that most know more than me.

i would suggest that you don't KNOW Islam at all. you only indulge in picking up bits and pieces of information in order to try to pretend that you are intelligent and therefore, based upon this imagined intelligence, you feel that people should take "knowledge" and your opinions about "knowledge" with some gravitas. therefore, your "intent" is wrong. but you don't understand that because you don't understand Islam [contrary to your own mistaken opinion].

The couple in question looked to be in their late 40’s and had clearly been brought up as Muslims from birth by (Pakistani) Muslim parents. I have been looking at Islam for only a couple of years and I encountered the inheritance question a long time ago so why did I know it and they didn’t?

as i stated above.

Were the couple in question typical Muslims knowing as much about Islam as the average (British) Muslim. They looked more Muslim than most and were clearly worried not to offend God by making a non-Islamic Will – so I concluded that if they are more Muslim than the average British Muslim (and they were certainly more intelligent/better educated than most British subjects) they should know more about Islam than ‘most’ British Muslims. That’s why I used the word ‘most.’

And for those interested what was the outcome? They wheeled in another scholar who could provide them with a modified interpretation. (Again another thing I have often said, if scholar 'A' says it should be this way there will always be another scholar who says it should be that way).
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in order to refute you, we must establish, "what is Islam." how do we do that? let's let the Messenger of Allah, as recounted by Emiru Mumineen, Abu Hafs, Umar ibn Al Khataab:

"While we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, a man came up to us whose clothes were extremely white, whose hair was extremely black, upon whom traces of traveling could not be seen, and whom none of us knew, until he sat down close to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, so that he rested his knees upon his knees and placed his two hands upon his thighs and said, 'Muhammad, tell me about Islam.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Islam is that you witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and you establish the prayer, and you give the Zakat, and you fast Ramadan, and you perform the hajj of the House if you are able to take a way to it.' He said, 'You have told the truth,' and we were amazed at him asking him and [then] telling him that he told the truth. He said, 'Tell me about Iman.' He said, 'That you affirm Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you affirm the Decree, the good of it and the bad of it.' He said, 'You have told the truth.' He said, 'Tell me about Ihsan.' He said, 'That you worship Allah as if you see Him, for if you don't see Him then truly He sees you.' He said, 'Tell me about the Hour.' He said, 'The one asked about it knows no more than the one asking.' He said, 'Then tell me about its tokens.' He said, 'That the female slave should give birth to her mistress, and you see poor, naked, barefoot shepherds of sheep and goats competing in making tall buildings.' He went away, and I remained some time. Then he asked, 'Umar, do you know who the questioner was?' I said, 'Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said, 'He was Jibreel who came to you to teach you your deen'." (Narrated by Muslim)
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Islam, as defined by Muhammad Rasool Allah, Peace be upon him is:

'Islam is that you witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and you establish the prayer, and you give the Zakat, and you fast Ramadan, and you perform the hajj of the House if you are able to take a way to it
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THAT is Islam and i reckon that the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims know this!

what you are concerned about is an issue of Fiqh, and in Islam there is a rational of fiqh for almost EVERY ASPECT of life. but Fiqh is derived from Qur'an, Sunnah, Tafseer & Hadeeth as understood by the Companions of the Messenger, May Allah be pleased with them.

when it comes to the fiqh of an issue, of course scholarship, or lack of it, will vary considerably from person to person. Fiqh is the equivalent to the entire law code of a country. is there a single non-Muslim country where ALL of the inhabitants know the entire law code? or do they turn to attorneys for assistance in that arena? what you are saying is that non-Muslims are idiots and therefore depend on lawyers, BUT Muslims, for some unexplained reason, should know their law code in it's entirety! should i presume that you feel they should know this as they exit the womb?

the above Hadeeth is the Hadeeth of Jibreel, it is the 2nd of Imam An Nawawi's 40 Hadeeth. only 1 Hadeeth precedes it:

HADITH 1
On the authority of Omar bin Al-Khattab, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah salla Allah u alihi wa sallam say :

"Actions are but by intention and every man shall have but that which he intended. Thus he whose migration was for Allah and His messenger, his migration was for Allah and His messenger, and he whose migration was to achieve some worldly benefit or to take some woman in marriage, his migration was for that for which he migrated." related by Bukhari and Muslim
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you don't read about Islam to learn Islam, quite the opposite actually. that is why you don't understand it.

ciao
 
you don't read about Islam to learn Islam, quite the opposite actually. that is why you don't understand it.

ciao
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:sl:

What, in your opinion, is the best way to learn about Islam? Following others?
 
kashmirshazad said:
Another paki basher, you lot are the type who will cuss Pakis or Indians, and then go and lick the feet of the Saudis.
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LOL, Brother as a pakistani myself, I speak on behalf of all the cultural crap that us pakistani's just cannot leave, we're so stuck into pak culture we don't know what is culture and what is islam, yes pakistani's are changing Alhamdulillah, but there is a long way to go

I don't give a crap about the saudis, I'm not nationalistic in any way
 
I'd like to reiterate what Woodrow has already stated: noone is perfect and noone knows everything about Islam. Example: I know compared to the average muslim, a fair amount about Islam, whether it be legal matters, finance or a bit of history. But I didn't always know any of that (and there is a lot I still don't know at all), I certainly wasn't born with that knowledge and it wasn't always easily available for the majority of cases.

You know about inheritance because you learnt about it most likely on this very forum through lengthy discussions with other muslims [like say moi]. But, not everyone has access to that information. I didn't have access to it until I bought a book about it (which I shall keep shamelessly plugging it [hit the link in my sig!] until every member I speak with on this forum has purchased it!).
 
Guestfellow said:
I'm Pakistani too but brother aadil77 is right. Most Pakistanis living in the UK don't know much about Islam.
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Salam

Brother, I agree with you to a certain extent. I still believe that were it not for Pakistanis arriving in the UK then there would not have been any muslims here at all. And Allah (swt) knows best.
 
AhlaamBella said:
Quick question:
Why on EARTH do you keep pointing out they are Pakistani? :/
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Because In the programme, it was pointed out that Islamic inheritance law demanded a portion be left to the parents and the parents were a part of the programme giving their views and at a point in time when the couple were showing discomfort with the deal the (Pakistani) parents said, "well that's they was it happens in your village in Pakistan and they don't have any problems with it." They didn't say, "that's what God commanded" they said what they said inferring that the couple should be doing it because that's the way it's done in Pakistan. Also, I believe that stating the ethnic origin of the Muslim couple (albeit through their parents) it give additional information as to the shade of Islam they follow (now I know your all going to say that Islam is Islam but I've formed the view that Muslims from different countries have different shades of Islam possibly because (like it or not) they mix up tradition and culture with Islam.

Neelofar said:
Thinker, you can't judge someone on how islamic they 'look'!
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Nonsense - of course you can! If I see a Muslim man with the fist long beard wearing the flowing robes I make a different judgement than the Muslims dressed in 'western' clothes. And, if I see a Muslim woman wearing the niqab / burka right down to her hands being covered I make a different judgment than if I see a Muslim woman with her hair uncovered etc. And, both I and you make judgments about everybody we see (Muslim or non-Muslim) based on how they appear.

~SilverOrchid~ said:
:sl:
Thinker, I understand how you might draw this conclusion but it is important you keep studying the religion and try not to draw final conclusions. Continually keeping an open mind will help you a lot.
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Wise words, which I believe, if applied, would be helpful for lots of us. :-)

aadil77 said:
probably because pakistani's in the UK are not very well informed about islam
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That's unfair and uncalled for - shame.

kashmirshazad said:
Another paki basher, you lot are the type who will cuss Pakis or Indians, and then go and lick the feet of the Saudis.
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That's unfair and uncalled for - shame.
 
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kashmirshazad said:
Its not racisT or unfair, when the person saying it belongs to the said ethnic group. In this case from one pakistani to another.
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He didn't actually say it was racist and there was certainly no need to call anyone a pakibasher.

Now, shall we get back on topic?
 
:sl:
I know what the Quran say about the will. And I used think it is unfair how the money is spilt. However, I did my research and found that the parent can actually split equally if they wanted to. The parents can choose to give their son more, but it is not a must. The minimum share is half for woman. I think what the couple did was fairly reasonably.
Allah has stated three types of shares for a woman's inheritance as follows:
1. A woman will have an equal share as that of the man.
2. A woman will have an equal share to that of the man, or a little less.
3. A woman will have half the share of a man.
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http://www.womeninislam.ws/en/misconceptions_right-of-inheritance.aspx

 
Interesting thread of discussion, but how many of you actually watched the programme??
I actually know the family that were involved and a lot of the negative comments are way off the mark. Making a Will is not a simplistic step as some think, actually its a very complicated process usually requiring the assistance of people with specialised knowledge.
The programme is still available on BBC i-player for a few days so i would suggest that you watch it and then decide.
The dilemma for the couple was whether to take the Qur'an literally or to try and understand its context. I hope you all are able to know the importance of context and the dangers of isolating Quranic verses??
 
kashmirshazad said:
Salam

Brother, I agree with you to a certain extent. I still believe that were it not for Pakistanis arriving in the UK then there would not have been any muslims here at all. And Allah (swt) knows best.
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Your blind nationalism/propaganda is not appreciated here.^o) This is a muslim forum, people from all over the world come here to learn.
 

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