Muslim-Christian Dialogue

[greenhill]

The Torah and Gospel might have errors, but they are definitely not lost or corrupt beyond use,

I read a post by a new member which mentioned a youtube talk by Jeffrey Lang on "the Purpose of Life'. It is over an hour long but I managed to listen to the end quite willingly. Now here he describes the creation of man as he interprets it (and he gives very good explanations). How does that differ from the belief that is extracted from the Bible? It is poles apart. That is a major concern.

You do not need the Qur'an to specifically say the Bible is corrupted. You need to use your own intellect and homework to seek the truth. This is one glaring example.


eace:

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I can understand that sometimes it "feels" different after translation. However good translations does retain most of the meaning (I use Quran.com's translation, if you have better ones please let me know).

It is not simply a case of feeling different, but can imply different meanings or leave out information.

Let's agree on that Quran is trustworthy, dominant over all scriptures, still, from the Quran verses talking about Torah and Gospel, it might indicate change of words, additions, mis-interpert of meanings, but no where it says Torah is totally corrupt or Gospel is lost.

It is possible that the Torah and Bible contain some truth and some of Allaah's words. But the original, complete books have been lost:

In the Quran, Allaah informs us that He revealed a number of books, including the scrolls of Prophet Abraham, the Psalms of Prophet David, the Torah of Prophet Moses, the Injeel (Gospel) of Prophet Jesus, and finally, the Quran of Prophet Muhammad, may Allaah exalt the mention of them all. Of these revealed texts, only the Quran remains intact in its original form. All of the others (as complete books) have been lost; their remains have survived only as fragments or tampered with in some way so as to make their authenticity doubtful. Nowhere in the Quran is the Bible even mentioned, to say nothing of its being among the revealed texts of Allaah, or as Christian's claim, 'The word of God.' Further, we know from respected scholars that although some fragments of the Psalms, the Torah, and the Injeel (the teachings of Prophet Jesus) may be found in the Bible, comprised of the Old and New Testaments, the Bible can not rightfully be called, 'The word of God.'...

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&lang=E&Id=90449

It does state that they are still able to use it to judge themselves (while might be partially changed).

No, it does not. You may see the following for more on this:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/r...s_and_christians_to_judge_by_their_scriptures
http://islamqa.info/en/159831

These two links will provide verses and hadith regarding textual corruption:
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/e...uption_of_the_christian_and_jewish_scriptures
http://islamqa.info/en/2001


And Allaah :swt: knows best.

 

[dcalling]

I googled him and his story is similar to that of Woodrow (but less the life and death part, and also he was touched in a dream), but they are very similar in the feeling of peace

Have not watch the video yet (don't have time tonight), will try to watch it. But the creation of man should be similar between Quran and Torah, God created Adam. How can it be poles apart? Is it just his interpretation of it? If you could give me a few details will be greatly appreciated, really don't want to spend an hour on a video :-(

Anyway, my problem is not only the verses of Quran (the list I have from the site) on Bible not saying anything about Gospel is totally lost or Torah is corrupted beyond of use, some of them strongly suggests that the Bible is useful. If Quran said something and someone else suggested otherwise (or give other interpretation), which would you trust?

I have attached some of it below (not all, you can see all of them from my link to the Muslim site) as well as some other verses posted by Muhammad (board admin, not the prophet) and others (to give context):

Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)
And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge among them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. [5:48]

And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. (Quran 5:66)
Say "O people of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Quran 5:68)
Say: "O people of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed from the Right Path." (Quran 5:77)
"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)
"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

I read a post by a new member which mentioned a youtube talk by Jeffrey Lang on "the Purpose of Life'. It is over an hour long but I managed to listen to the end quite willingly. Now here he describes the creation of man as he interprets it (and he gives very good explanations). How does that differ from the belief that is extracted from the Bible? It is poles apart. That is a major concern.

You do not need the Qur'an to specifically say the Bible is corrupted. You need to use your own intellect and homework to seek the truth. This is one glaring example.


eace:

 

[Muhaba]

My context is that Insaanah (and later YusufNoor supported with evidences from Christian scholars) said "The injeel is no longer in existence ...."
And I quoted Quran that clearly shows the opposite. So far I have not found anything in Quran that approves that the Gospel is lost and Torah is corrupt beyond use, and I don't see how the verses you quoted or your explanation states otherwise.

The Torah and Gospel might have errors, but they are definitely not lost or corrupt beyond use, and you can go through all the quotes from the Muslim website I provided about the previous scriptures and they confirm that (Unless the site didn't list all and there are other verses not mentioned). In fact I think if you look through the Torah and Gospel, excluding a few conflicts that doesn't affect its message, and a few verses about Jesus is the son of God and cruxfied, not much is in conflict with Quran (there might be more, feel free to add them). I don't care much about you think Muhammad witness, criterion, confirm over Torah/Gospel, but I feel the statement "The injeel is no longer in existence ...." is in conflict with what the Quran teaches.

There are hadith that show that the previous scriptures are now obsolete and should not be read for guidance. one hadith is as follows:

Jabir Bin Abdullah reports that once Umar Bin al-Khattab read a book, which he had received from a Jew, to the Prophet who got angry and said: “O the son of al-Khattab, ar you embarrased? By the One in whose hands is my life, I have brought to you something which is pure and immaculate. Don’t ask them(the Jews) anything. There is a possibility that they tell you the truth and you refute it, or they tell you the false and you confirm it. By the One in whose hands is my life, even if Musa were alive today he would have followed me.”

(Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Hadith no. 4736)
​

As for the law in the bible, I don't know how accurate it is. It's possible that it's unchanged so might be still used by Christians and Jews. Note that the verse you quoted asked to judge by the Injeel (use the law) and did not ask to follow the Injeel. When the Prophet first went to Madina, he gave the Jews autonomy and allowed them to use their own law.

commentary of verse 68 of chapter 5 states:

By 'establishing the Torah and the Gospel' is meant observing them honestly and making them the law of life.
It should be noted here that the Scriptures which comprise the Bible consist of two kinds of writings. One was composed by the Jewish and Christian authors themselves. The second consists of those portions which have been recorded as either the injunctions of God or as the utterances of Moses, Jesus and other Prophets. Such portions are those in which it has been categorically stated that God said so and so, or that a particular Prophet said so and so. If we were to exclude the portions belonging to the first category and carefully study those belonging to the second we would notice that their teachings are not perceptibly different from those of the Qur'an. It is true that the second category has not altogether escaped the tamperings of translators, scribes and exegetes, and the errors of oral transmitters. Nevertheless, one cannot help feeling that the teachings embodied in the second category call man to the same pure monotheism as the Qur'an, that they propound those very beliefs propounded by the Qur'an and that they direct man to the same way of life as that to which the Qur'an seeks to direct him. Hence, had the Jews and the Christians adhered to the teaching attributed in their Scriptures to God and the Prophets they would certainly have become a truth-loving and truth-oriented group of people and would have been able to see in the Qur'an that very light which illuminates the earlier divine Scriptures. There would then have been no question of their abandoning their religion in order to follow the Prophet (peace be on him). To follow him would have caused neither break nor discontinuity; they would simply have gone one stage further along the same road.
http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html

Whenever you quote something, make sure it is from authentic Islamic sources and authentic websites and not some unknown interpretation that may have been done by anyone. Quote commentaries from the known commentaries directly. It's possible that the various commentaries you quoted were misinterpretations of the commentaries.

There are parts of the bible that have been clearly tampered with and can not be used. If you look sincerely, you will be able to tell what a parts are from God and what are additions of men. For example, one can realize with a bit of straight thinking that God's Prophets were the best of men and were not capable of doing any of the horrible sins attributed to them by the bible. Do you think that God would say such things about His Prophets? Or do you think that the Prophets could be such sinning men? neither is acceptable and it's obvious that such statements were added by people.

God's teaching about monotheism and Godhood doesn't change. Either trinity was always the case or it never was the case. For centuries all prophets preached about One God and no one heard the name of trinity. After Jesus we heard about the trinity. When Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came, he taught once again that God was One and Single and that the trinity was a wrong concept. One can clearly understand from this that the trinity and divinity of Jesus was an addition by people and not a fact.

You are putting my quote out of context. I was replay to manor who said "The Quran did not say that Allah can have a son. Please read the Quran before you make assumptions. Thank you ",
which I replied a verse from Quran that says Allah can pick any from among his creations a son. I did not state he has a son or hides a son (which he can do if he wishes, don't you agree?).

In a previous post you wrote that the Quran says that God can have a son. My reply was to that. the Quran does not say that God can have a son. The Quran clearly states that God does not have a son. It is further stated that if God had a son, the Prophets would be the first to acknowledge it. There was no reason for it to be hidden. God is not embarrassed to disclose the truth. The Quran tells us that God is High above the need for a son or partner.

 

[Signor]

It is possible that the Torah and Bible contain some truth and some of Allaah's words. But the original, complete books have been lost:

In the Quran, Allaah informs us that He revealed a number of books, including the scrolls of Prophet Abraham, the Psalms of Prophet David, the Torah of Prophet Moses, the Injeel (Gospel) of Prophet Jesus, and finally, the Quran of Prophet Muhammad, may Allaah exalt the mention of them all. Of these revealed texts, only the Quran remains intact in its original form. All of the others (as complete books) have been lost; their remains have survived only as fragments or tampered with in some way so as to make their authenticity doubtful. Nowhere in the Quran is the Bible even mentioned, to say nothing of its being among the revealed texts of Allaah, or as Christian's claim, 'The word of God.' Further, we know from respected scholars that although some fragments of the Psalms, the Torah, and the Injeel (the teachings of Prophet Jesus) may be found in the Bible, comprised of the Old and New Testaments, the Bible can not rightfully be called, 'The word of God.'...

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&lang=E&Id= 90449

An example of Islam's stance from my research on Noah's(A.S) Place In Allah's Eyes from Biblical and Quranic sources

and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;Peter 2:5

(In the days of old), Noah cried to Us, and We are the best to hear prayer.And We delivered him and his people from the Great Calamity,And made his progeny to endure (on this earth);And We left (this blessing) for him among generations to come in later times:"Peace and salutation to Noah among the nations!"Holy Quran,(37:75-79)

Verily he was a devotee most grateful Holy Quran,(17:3)

Biblical Contradiction(An Alteration)

And Noah the husbandman began, and planted a vineyard. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. Genesis 20-21

Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)

And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge among them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. [5:48]

And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. (Quran 5:66)

Say "O people of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Quran 5:68)

Say: "O people of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed from the Right Path." (Quran 5:77)

"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)

"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

If we say,It was Islam all along from Adam(A.S) to Muhammad(A.S),WHO WILL GONNA OWN THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING WHAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO THEM?Can you name Muhammad(PBUH) as Prophet and Messenger in Church or Start shutting those mouths who say Jesus(A.S) was an illegitimate son(Naoudubillah min zalik)?Name any other religion which can declare such a statement besides Islam?

Lo! those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad(SAAWS), and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (Al Baqarah:62)

We are of the view Torah and Injeel were corrupted later on,not at the time of revelation.I will post later Insha Allah what Quran has to offer in this context.

 

[Muhammad]

Anyway, my problem is not only the verses of Quran (the list I have from the site) on Bible not saying anything about Gospel is totally lost or Torah is corrupted beyond of use, some of them strongly suggests that the Bible is useful. If Quran said something and someone else suggested otherwise (or give other interpretation), which would you trust?

As pointed out a number of times, there is confusion in how you use the terms here. The revelation given to Prophet Isa :as: was the Injeel; the Qur'an does not mention 'Bible' anywhere. It is erroneous to equate the Bible with the Injeel mentioned in the Quran. This goes back to my earlier post about problems with relying on translations - just because the word Injeel has been translated as Gospel, does not mean it is talking about the New Testament. The Gospel/Injeel that was revealed to Prophet Isa :as: is not the Gospels which the Christians have today. This much should be very clear because Christians themselves do not believe that the books they have before them were revealed in that form from God, nor do they claim that the Messiah wrote the Gospel, or at least that it was written during his lifetime.

From one of the links I gave you earlier (the third time I am linking from this site):

The main problem with Christians who put forth these arguments is that they fail to identify and understand how the Qur'an uses the terms 'Torah' and 'Gospel' in the Qur'an. When the Qur'an talks about the Torah and Gospel, one of its intentions is to speak about the original revelations sent to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them both respectively. Sometimes the Qur'an or authentic hadith might appear to be speaking about the Torah and Gospel, which Jews and Christians refer to.

​

For example, when I debate the topic 'Did Jesus Claim Divinity' with Christians, I usually issue this challenge 'Show me where Jesus claimed divinity in the Gospel'. Now, my intention here is that I am referring to the Gospel referred to by Christians and that is the combined four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. However, my intention is not to state that this is the actual Gospel that God revealed to Jesus peace be upon him. So the word is used in different contexts and Christians fail to identify this when it comes to studying the Qur'an and authentic hadith.
​

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/r...s_and_christians_to_judge_by_their_scriptures

​

I have attached some of it below (not all, you can see all of them from my link to the Muslim site) as well as some other verses posted by Muhammad (board admin, not the prophet) and others (to give context):

Please read the links I gave in my previous post for a full discussion. The thread cannot continue if you choose to ignore everyone's replies and keep repeating your own.

 

[Muhaba]

Did Moses preach the trinity? If not, then how can you Christians think that Jesus would? Jesus followed the Mosaic law and faith. He didn't bring a different religion. The faith he taught would be the same as taught by Prophet Moses. Something to think about!

What Prophet Muhammd (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) taught was the same that taught by Prophet Moses, that there is One Unique God with no partners, no son, no share in divinity. So who is closer to the truth? What Christians have today or what Muslims believe?

You've got to consider this question sincerely and with an open mind. Could Jesus have taught a faith different from Moses (peace be upon them)?

 

[Insaanah]

Reading this thread, I am amazed at how much word twisting, using quotes out of context and without any degree of understanding, is going on. Ignoring those parts of posts you wish to, inserting words in other peoples quotes that they didn't use and using that to say that what they said was wrong, and thus I have really had no inclination to reply. However with some things that have been said, I feel I must.

Here is just one example:

He does not beget, nor is He begotten.

Quran did say that Allah can have a son.

You changed the word "does", which I used, to "can". I did talk not about can/cannot, I said does/does not. One small word changed can alter the whole meaning ( as has happened with the previous scriptures).

This is very reminiscent of the people of the book Allah talks about in the Qur'an twisting those parts of scripture as it suited them, ignoring others etc. Another example is here, where you also make wrong assertions about the Qur'an:

He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

Agree with first part, the second part is your own assertion. I think Quran talk about he want us to worship him.

Please stop talking and making your own faulty and misinformed statements about the Qur'an.

....But whoever disbelieves - then indeed, Allah is free from need of the worlds. (3:97, part)

Interesting, again, how you twist my words. I said "need", and you change that to "want", and reply to a different point that I didn't make.

Irrespective of this, the Qur'an is clear.

Allah tells us to worship Him, but our not doing so does not diminish Him in the least, it is our own loss.

An example of a post on a topic, where you take one point, and make the entire thread about that one point, ignoring the other points made in the same post, which put that point into context, and ignoring what everyone else has to say, is here:

The original scripture, given to Jesus (peace be upon him) by God, was called the Injeel. This was the word of God, not the words of any human. The ones we have today, are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not God. The injeel is no longer in existence, having being mixed with the words of man, parts changed/edited/deleted/forgotten/corrupted. There may be fragments of the truth remaining interspersed with what else is there. Some people, of their own volition, will perceive as a rough guide, whatever agrees with the Qur'an, as having an element of truth. But Allah knows best.

The part I have above highlighted in bold, has been completely ignored, and the same repeated claims made:

I can't find anything in there that hints the entire Gospel is lost.

none says Gospel is lost or Torah is totally corrupt

My context is that Insaanah (and later YusufNoor supported with evidences from Christian scholars) said "The injeel is no longer in existence ...."
And I quoted Quran that clearly shows the opposite. So far I have not found anything in Quran that approves that the Gospel is lost and Torah is corrupt beyond use, and I don't see how the verses you quoted or your explanation states otherwise.

Anyway, my problem is not only the verses of Quran (the list I have from the site) on Bible not saying anything about Gospel is totally lost or Torah is corrupted beyond of use

Whether the entire Gospel is lost is irrelevant. the point is, once even a minor change is made, it is no longer the original book as revealed by God. End of. Period. Now, it is not even a minor change, but entire books are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not the words of God, the word of God having been lost, or being very few and far between.

Allah tells the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) that even in the period when the Qur'an wasn't yet revealed, they still did not follow whatever scriptures they had with them. If they did not follow even the true parts of what they had with them, then how would they follow the Qur'an? If they followed the parts of their scriptures which were true, they included those parts which told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and that they should follow him, and thus following the Qur'an would be the natural progression. So there is nothing contradictory nor dubious about such verses in the Qur'an as much as Christian missionaries may try to misquote verses to do so. Nor is there any dispensation for following the previous scriptures now.

Read these verses:

O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished. (4:47)

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. (7:156-7)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path. (5:15-16)

And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth. They say, "Our Lord, we have believed, so register us among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and what has come to us of the truth? And we aspire that our Lord will admit us [to Paradise] with the righteous people." (5:83-84)

Did these righteous Christians, stubbornly insist that they must follow their previous scriptures? No. Did they look for any personal interpretations they might be able to make of the Qur'an that might excuse them from following it? No. The Bible was probably less changed then that it is even now. But still Allah condemns the people who changed the previous scriptures which were His word, and rightfully so. Those Christians and Jews who recognized that parts of the Bible or Torah could in no way have been from God, recognized the Qur'an as containing their same original message. They were overjoyed when the Qur'an was revealed. They didn't see it as changing their faith, but as coming back to the true teachings of Jesus and Moses, and submitting to God.

Since you are so insistent on the use of Qur'anic verses, saying this:

what evidence is better than the Word of God?

How about the ones that order you to follow the Qur'an? Not pick and choose style, but in it's totality? Since the current day Gospels are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not God, whereas the Qur'an on the other hand, is 100% the word of God.

The Qur'an has many verses which tell us that the previous scriptures have been

Changed
Parts Omitted
Words added and attributed to Allaah - words that He did not say
Twisting/Misinterpreting the words of Allaah.

Also:

I prefer base scripture instead of any human interpretation over it.

All you have done throughout this thread, is take human interpretation, your own twisted and misguided and erroneous personal interpretation.

Please read the links I gave in my previous post for a full discussion. The thread cannot continue if you choose to ignore everyone's replies and keep repeating your own.

I think we should very strongly stick to this. Part of the reason we closed comparative religion, was to avoid prolonged debates like this where the intention does not appear to be to learn, to avoid wasting everyone's time.

Thus I am closing this thread. There is plenty of material here to be pondered over, sincerely, with intent to learn, should you wish to do so.