Muslim-Christian differences of opinion

[YEh]

Re: question to the christians

Maybe you could clearly outline the conditions, the only condition I have seen outlined was this;

Two replies,

1. You set a bench mark of 1 Gospel and 1 Book of Paul's, I have read, and prayed over much more than that, I have tried to understand context and tried to look at the greek whenever possible, have spoken to a pastor who ha s spent 6 years in learning theology, all this whilst I sincerly believed the Bible to be true. Nevertheless I know nothing compared to others and so I only ask and put forth ideas, if you search the forum I always encourage members to correct me if I am wrong.​

2. Your condition is kind of off set, for in order for me to point out any parts of the Bible which are not in harmony, I would not have had to read the whole Bible as such, rather I would one have to read the part which I bring forth.

No I didn't say you have to read the whole Bible. Just some of it but in context. Because All the Muslims I have met so far on forums or friends, try to point out contradictions and errors in the Bible and they haven't even tried to understand Jesus message.
So I cautioned that, this is my experience not neccessarily the case this time.
Trying to save time. mg:

And after a whole bunch of discussion, it comes down to they haven't even read a full gospel before, or whole book of the Bible. They often quote from Ahmad Dheet books and video's of Dr Zakir or whatever. With one quote as proof against another quote.
It leads to long convo.'s about silly things. Which can be avoided if you just read a couple of books fully. :statisfie

Moving forth,

You asked,

With regards to this then this logic is only special pleading, Aadam was born without mother or father, and God according to your book, breathed into Aadam, Aadam by that had DNA of Divine origin, does this mean he is divine no.

Well I think he was. But he was created divine and became a decaying, human when he was cast from Eden. Jesus has always been, he was not created. That's the difference.

Furthermore, you are under the assumption that it was Diving DNA, for God can create by saying be and it is, a spirit can be sent by God without the spirit being divine, this is my belief.

This is where my answer came in, someone born in a special way does not make him special, someone having a miracle happen to them does not make them special. If a person is by miracle cured of HIV who is an athiest, and a person who is a Christian dies of it does this mean the athiest is better in God's eyes? Similarly the Birth of Jesus is not an indication of his status.

Well the statement was actually "What other prophet was born in this special way ? And you still believe that he is just another prophet".

So you don't think it significant that every prophet was born normally from a man and woman. And then the Messiah is born from a virgin by the Holy Spirit of God. :?
This definately signifies something different to me and anyone else if you compare his birth honestly.

This makes me wonder if you yourself know the history of Biblical compilation, if you told me the above and there was knowledge that the authors had no ideas of the Old Testament then I'd agree it'd be pretty amazing, but the authorsof the Gospel had the Old Testament there, they could make references as they wanted.

That's right but the NT authors knew how to interpret it so that it made sense.
They quoted fulfilled prophecies from the OT that mirrored Jesus's life. Only Jesus has fulfilled the many prophecies that the Jews were waiting for at the time of his life on earth.
And he will fulfill the rest when he returns.
But some Jews still followed Jesus, some of the apostles were Jewish.

Furthermore, to show you one point, let me quote something interesting and you can reply for me;

Matthew 2:15

where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."​

This is a passage in which matthew uses a line out of the Old Testament as prophecy and places it upon the life of Jesus as being fufilled, let us turn back to the book where he got it from;

Hosea 11:1

"When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.​

Amazing in my eyes, a blatant misquote!! Talk about cross references.

Well let's look at the context shall we:

Hosea 11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


Hosea 11
God's Love for Israel

1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

2 But the more I [a] called Israel,
the further they went from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.

This is God speaking about his SON and Israel's rebellion. It is a direct mention of God having a Son in the OT (Judaism).
The prophecy states very clearly that GOD has a Son and he will call him out of Egypt.
Let's see if Jesus fulfilled this prophecy since we already know that Christians believe Jesus is God' Son.

Matthew 2:
19But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20saying, "Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child's life are dead." 21And he rose and took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel.

So this is a misquote how ?

Now are you going to dismiss the fact that the OT agree's with Christian belief ? :?

First thing, interesting way to dismiss this as copiest errors, you say they were notes written in by scholars about the doctrine, let us see the addition and think;

Anyone familiar with the NT knows that this is how the Gospels are there is no evidence to show that this is only a side note, rather the evidence shows that this is a conitnuation of the story! Let us be honest if it was only side notes why would it still be in the Bible today.

Ooops, I shouldn't have said that. I was thinking of something else that was a copiest erorr, my mistake. That Mark extension is obviously added later, maybe because the collection of Jesus's stories were ongoing as more witnesses were questioned.

Furthermore, it seems that you like to speak about cross reference, am assuming you have cross referenced the Gospels with each other, so how do you explain the evolution of the person of Jesus within those Gospels? Am sure you know what I mean after all you have set the conditions down so I expect you to know better.

Well I explain them as each person wrote down about Jesus according to their own experience and testimonies of witnesses. If 4 people all write about an event that took place they will never be 100% correct. Ever read different articles in different newspapers of the same event. They always mention things differently in different lights, ommit certain details and add some more to the story as they hear it compared to others.

What about the abbrogations in the Quran. Did God change his mind, or if it was slowly abbrogated for other teachings. How confusing does the message become to the un-enlightened ?
This concept is very dangerous.

What about the Hadith traditions to Quran contradictions. Which is much more suspect than different personal accounts of the Bible, which are just small details.
Since it commands people to behead people who leave the religion.
Behead people who insult Muhammad. He did this himself according to some traditions (Sahih).
Question: Why would the followers of Muhammad even write such things ? If they knew Muhammad and the Quran well enough to discount such violent commands. i.e. Muhammad couldn't have possibly killed a woman for insulting him. Muhammad's tradition writer: That's just absurd, let's not include that. Good idea.

Your accounts of events are not exactly perfect either. So I wouldn't bother about this issue.

I know you say the Quran is perfect and the hadith's are man's doing. But isn't the fact that some nut out there may read that and follow his example ?

That's what's really different about Islam and Christianty. Islam says all prophets were perfect because they were examples to their respective people.

Christianity says that no man should be an example because all men sin. Only Jesus was an example to follow in conduct because he didn't sin.
I think the Son Of God (Jesus) is a much better example to follow than a man (Muhammad).

Hope to hear from you soon,

Eesa.

Me too.

 

[YEh]

Words of truth

"Do not hate your enemy for he may one day become your friend" ~ Ali (ra)

Not really. Not much truth there at all.

Also if you believe in the quote mentioned above. How can you believe in Islam ?
Since Muhammad killed his enemies, this is hate.

"Love does no harm to your neighbor".

YEh

 

[InToTheRain]

Not really. Not much truth there at all.

Also if you believe in the quote mentioned above. How can you believe in Islam ?
Since Muhammad killed his enemies, this is hate.

"Love does no harm to your neighbor".

YEh

Your ignorance about Mohammad(SAW) surely shines through. I advice you to read his life story:

Sealed Nectar

Glory be to Allah(SWT), Mohammad(SAW) was a pacifist, Allah(SWT) ordered him to fight to defend the message of Allah(SWT) so that people like me can benefit from it and all praise belongs to Allah(SWT) the most merciful.

 

[Umar001]

Re: question to the christians

Me too.

It took me ages to get the grips of quoting on this board, I know it can be a headache but try to seperate it I get abit confused.

Well I think he was. But he was created divine and became a decaying, human when he was cast from Eden. Jesus has always been, he was not created. That's the difference.

Well that's your presumption, thats ok, but the way you presented the case before it was pleading to a miracle to indicate the speciality of someone. But if you just say you believe Jesus was this and that thats ok, when you try to bring a logical reasoning to it thats where I oppose, specially to the one before.

Well the statement was actually "What other prophet was born in this special way ? And you still believe that he is just another prophet".

So you don't think it significant that every prophet was born normally from a man and woman. And then the Messiah is born from a virgin by the Holy Spirit of God.
This definately signifies something different to me and anyone else if you compare his birth honestly.

I don't know if you missed it, but using the miracle of the Birth means Nothing, I have asked you if you would consider an athiest who was healed by God to be better than a christian who was not healed by God, do you?

Furthermore, Prophet Adaam was born without mother or father, beats being born without Father but Mother, on top of that from Adam came eve, thats even bigger miracle.

That's right but the NT authors knew how to interpret it so that it made sense.
They quoted fulfilled prophecies from the OT that mirrored Jesus's life. Only Jesus has fulfilled the many prophecies that the Jews were waiting for at the time of his life on earth.
And he will fulfill the rest when he returns.
But some Jews still followed Jesus, some of the apostles were Jewish.

This is God speaking about his SON and Israel's rebellion. It is a direct mention of God having a Son in the OT (Judaism).
The prophecy states very clearly that GOD has a Son and he will call him out of Egypt.
Let's see if Jesus fulfilled this prophecy since we already know that Christians believe Jesus is God' Son.

You see, if you leave our minds behind then there's no point in discussion, that'll be my condition.

What we have is this, the author of Matthew writes quotes this;

Matthew 2:15

where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

And the author was talking about Jesus being called out of Egypt, so Jesus is taken out of Egypt, and then the author writes, 'And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son". So it is clear, the author is using this as a prophecy of Jesus. The author even leaves part of the verse out, the part which shows it's not talking about Jesus but Israel.

A blatant misquotation, now if you want to re interpret it in a way which nullifies any sort of thinking we as humans have then you can but anyone can do that with anything and make it mean anything. The verse tells us who the Son is, it's Israel, but the author of Matthew left that part of the verse out and misquoted it to apply it to Jesus.

Now are you going to dismiss the fact that the OT agree's with Christian belief ?

The above has nothing to do with the differences in the Bible, that was just showing the unreliability of the authors since in his zeal he tried to use something out of context to prove a 'prophecy'.

Ooops, I shouldn't have said that. I was thinking of something else that was a copiest erorr, my mistake. That Mark extension is obviously added later, maybe because the collection of Jesus's stories were ongoing as more witnesses were questioned.

No worries, who added it and was it inspired? And what substantiates your theory that it was more witnesses accounts?

Well I explain them as each person wrote down about Jesus according to their own experience and testimonies of witnesses. If 4 people all write about an event that took place they will never be 100% correct. Ever read different articles in different newspapers of the same event. They always mention things differently in different lights, ommit certain details and add some more to the story as they hear it compared to others.

That's one theory, what proof have you got for that theory? I would consider your theory if it was not for the fact that the changes are constant!

What about the abbrogations in the Quran. Did God change his mind, or if it was slowly abbrogated for other teachings. How confusing does the message become to the un-enlightened ?
This concept is very dangerous.

Lol, it is most illogical to compare the Bible and the Qu'ran when speaking of evolution within the text since the Bible is a compilation of Books which were seperate and later joined, authored by different people, whereas the Qu'ran was finished and all come through Muhammad, peace be upon him.

What about the Hadith traditions to Quran contradictions.

I don't know if you are familiar with what a hadith is, if there is a supposed hadith which is put forward but it contradicts the Qu'ran then the validity of that Hadith is deemed to be false!!

Which is much more suspect than different personal accounts of the Bible, which are just small details.

The different accounts of the Gospels for examples do not differ on small details only, I am really begging to wonder how much indipendent reading you have done.

Behead people who insult Muhammad. He did this himself according to some traditions (Sahih).
Question: Why would the followers of Muhammad even write such things ? If they knew Muhammad and the Quran well enough to discount such violent commands. i.e. Muhammad couldn't have possibly killed a woman for insulting him. Muhammad's tradition writer: That's just absurd, let's not include that. Good idea.

That has just confused me, I don't know what you are on about.

Your accounts of events are not exactly perfect either. So I wouldn't bother about this issue.

Seriously, don't say dont bother before you tread the issue, your explanation of the evolution in the gospels was enough to show you dont know much about it, so why dismiss it?

So for the record, if you are able plus willing to check your presumptions to try to stick to a logical discussion then we can talk, if not then I don't see much point.

See and they see not, hear and they hear not.

Eesa

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: question to the christians

With regards to this then this logic is only special pleading, Aadam was born without mother or father, and God according to your book, breathed into Aadam, Aadam by that had DNA of Divine origin, does this mean he is divine no.

Not on topic I know, but this is sort of what I am thinking of when the scriptures talk of human beings as being created in the image of God. Obviously we are pretty much the same as animals in most regards, but there is something unique about humans that separates us from the rest of the animals. What is it? It isn't our biological DNA, we share the majority of that with other animals (97% with chimpanzees and a little less than that with earthworms, but still a majority of our DNA and that of an earthworm are the same). And the constituent parts of our DNA are all found in other creatures. And it isn't our ability to use tools, have language, think and remember, or to experience emotions, all these things are found in many other species. What is unique about us is in our spirit, a spirit that was breathed into us by God himself and by which he created in us something of his very own image that we share with no other creature. So we are moral beings, created with an ability to no the difference between good and evil and the rest of the animal, vegetable, bacterial world does not.



Now, back on topic, I hope:

I don't know if you are familiar with what a hadith is, if there is a supposed hadith which is put forward but it contradicts the Qu'ran then the validity of that Hadith is deemed to be false!!

This is a concern of mine with respect to Islam. What I hear you saying is that if one finds any record of the Prophet Muhammad (pubh) acting or speaking in a way that is not in accord with the Quran, then it is discounted as untrue. Is that what you are saying? Because, if it is, then it is as if you have determined the veracity of something before even investigating it. Such could hardly be considered an unbiased search for truth.

And ultimately, this makes the scholars of Islam the gate keepers to the doctrines of Isalm, even the Quran and the message of the Prophet (pbuh) can only be understood through them. One is effectively prevented from thinking for one's self. I see this at work in things as inconsequential as whether or not music haraam -- just read other threads in this forum for illustrations of what I am talking about, to truly serious issues such as delivering fatwahs concerning jihad.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I have another question. As I post I see the title of my post to be going into a thread entitled "Muslim-Christian differences of opinion". Thus, as I have some questions and comments on some of the differences I see, I think that my post should be on topic. But then....when I see the post actually displayed in the forum, it is entitled "Questions to Christians" and most certainly my post would be off topic in such a thread.

How do I reconcile these differences internal to the forum?

 

[Umar001]

Re: question to the christians

Not on topic I know, but this is sort of what I am thinking of when the scriptures talk of human beings as being created in the image of God. Obviously we are pretty much the same as animals in most regards, but there is something unique about humans that separates us from the rest of the animals. What is it? It isn't our biological DNA, we share the majority of that with other animals (97% with chimpanzees and a little less than that with earthworms, but still a majority of our DNA and that of an earthworm are the same). And the constituent parts of our DNA are all found in other creatures. And it isn't our ability to use tools, have language, think and remember, or to experience emotions, all these things are found in many other species. What is unique about us is in our spirit, a spirit that was breathed into us by God himself and by which he created in us something of his very own image that we share with no other creature. So we are moral beings, created with an ability to no the difference between good and evil and the rest of the animal, vegetable, bacterial world does not.

Whilst I do agree that we are different and so forth, I do have to say that the factor that makes the difference might be our spirit, even if I agree to that, then that does not mean that this spirit is not a created thing which God has given us, this spirit does not have to be a divine factor, it could be and I believe it is a spirit which God created and has given us. So I don't think us having a spirit which God gave us makes us God's image.

Now, back on topic, I hope:

This is a concern of mine with respect to Islam. What I hear you saying is that if one finds any record of the Prophet Muhammad (pubh) acting or speaking in a way that is not in accord with the Quran, then it is discounted as untrue. Is that what you are saying? Because, if it is, then it is as if you have determined the veracity of something before even investigating it. Such could hardly be considered an unbiased search for truth.

Grace I think your answer will come from understanding the position of the Qu'ran, if I were to take a non Muslim stand point then in the history we know that the Qu'ran has reached us as people through many, it is something which generations have memorised and kept and studied by the thousands and so forth, now if we have a single hadith, then this hadith is not as strongly as re inforced as the Qu'ran I can garantee that not as many people that have memorised the Qu'ran in history would have memorised that hadith, you see what I mean? It is because of this superiority of the Qu'ran's retention through history that anything that contradicts it is then cast aside, when it comes to choosing from hundreds of thousands of people against a couple of hundred, logically the hundred of thousands would be least likely to have all made mistakes.

And ultimately, this makes the scholars of Islam the gate keepers to the doctrines of Isalm, even the Quran and the message of the Prophet (pbuh) can only be understood through them. One is effectively prevented from thinking for one's self. I see this at work in things as inconsequential as whether or not music haraam -- just read other threads in this forum for illustrations of what I am talking about, to truly serious issues such as delivering fatwahs concerning jihad.

Again scholars too have to present their evidences for their descions and rulings.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: question to the christians

Whilst I do agree that we are different and so forth, I do have to say that the factor that makes the difference might be our spirit, even if I agree to that, then that does not mean that this spirit is not a created thing which God has given us, this spirit does not have to be a divine factor, it could be and I believe it is a spirit which God created and has given us. So I don't think us having a spirit which God gave us makes us God's image.

But since God is spirit and it is God's spirit which is breathed into us, and since no other creature is created in this way, that uniqueness of our spirit, which you seem to be inclined to agree with, then is something that we actually share with God and that God shares with no other creature.

In other words, it is not a physical image that we share with God, it is a spiritual image. That which allows men and women to be receivers of eternal life is that fact that, like God, we are spiritual beings first and foremost, not merely creatures of flesh and blood. Despite the protestations I am sure to here from people worldwide who love their pets and want to see them in heaven, none of the rest of the animal kingdom is created as a spiritual being. Flesh and blood doesn't go to heaven, only our spiritual bodies. Or is this another area of difference between Christianity and Islam?

 

[Keltoi]

Re: question to the christians

But since God is spirit and it is God's spirit which is breathed into us, and since no other creature is created in this way, that uniqueness of our spirit, which you seem to be inclined to agree with, then is something that we actually share with God and that God shares with no other creature.

In other words, it is not a physical image that we share with God, it is a spiritual image. That which allows men and women to be receivers of eternal life is that fact that, like God, we are spiritual beings first and foremost, not merely creatures of flesh and blood. Despite the protestations I am sure to here from people worldwide who love their pets and want to see them in heaven, none of the rest of the animal kingdom is created as a spiritual being. Flesh and blood doesn't go to heaven, only our spiritual bodies. Or is this another area of difference between Christianity and Islam?

From what I understand, Muslims believe their are physically manifest in Heaven. Perhaps not flesh and blood, but still a physical body.

 

[YEh]

Your ignorance about Mohammad(SAW) surely shines through. I advice you to read his life story:

Sealed Nectar

Glory be to Allah(SWT), Mohammad(SAW) was a pacifist, Allah(SWT) ordered him to fight to defend the message of Allah(SWT) so that people like me can benefit from it and all praise belongs to Allah(SWT) the most merciful.

My ignorance,

Excuse me, but that's a bit presumptuous isn't it ?

If you took the time to read my comments, you will have noticed I have read his biography and have studied a bit of the Quran with tafsirs. Alim software. :statisfie

Also the Quran and hadith's contain a very non-pacifist Muhammad, since it mentions many times in Sahih hadith that Muhammad killed people who insulted the Quran/himself and clearly was not of the pacifist nature that Jesus was "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.".
Muhammad would have been all for it :?

Muhammad completely contradict's this pacifist idea Jesus is so famous for. Muhammad pacifist ????? :?

YEh

 

[YEh]

Re: question to the christians

It took me ages to get the grips of quoting on this board, I

know it can be a headache but try to seperate it I get abit confused.

Sorry aboot that. How do you use this thing anyway ?

Well that's your presumption, thats ok, but the way you presented the case before it was pleading to a miracle to indicate the speciality of someone. But if you just say you believe Jesus was this and that thats ok, when you try to bring a logical reasoning to it thats where I oppose, specially to the one before.

I was presenting and I am still presenting this is the case. You see it does mention that Jesus is here to wipe out the original sin, which keeps us from knowing God.
So the birth was a sign to say that just as one man who was created in a divine manner brought sin upon men, so will the saviour from that trespass be born in like manner.

Romans 5:
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I don't know if you missed it, but using the miracle of the Birth means Nothing, I have asked you if you would consider an athiest who was healed by God to be better than a christian who was not healed by God, do you?

But this has to do with specualtion of knowing all of God's ways. And we simply don't. That goes without saying I think. :thumbs_up
But we do know that his birth was unique. Why would God have gone through all that trouble to make him born a sigificant way. If he is just another prophet ? :?
Also Adam was the first human to be created. Jesus was the first time God was made into a human.

Furthermore, Prophet Adaam was born without mother or father, beats being born without Father but Mother, on top of that from Adam came eve, thats even bigger miracle.

Yes that's true, but this was the story of the creation of man. It was a once and only creation. Why is Jesus's birth made in such a unique special way also ?

You see, if you leave our minds behind then there's no point in discussion, that'll be my condition.

What we have is this, the author of Matthew writes quotes this;

Matthew 2:15

where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

And the author was talking about Jesus being called out of Egypt, so Jesus is taken out of Egypt, and then the author writes, 'And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son". So it is clear, the author is using this as a prophecy of Jesus. The author even leaves part of the verse out, the part which shows it's not talking about Jesus but Israel.

A blatant misquotation, now if you want to re interpret it in a way which nullifies any sort of thinking we as humans have then you can but anyone can do that with anything and make it mean anything. The verse tells us who the Son is, it's Israel, but the author of Matthew left that part of the verse out and misquoted it to apply it to Jesus.

I think you might have missed the point a bit.

The point of Matthew quoting Hosea 11:1 is that. Just as Israel was affectionately called God's son. And was called out of Egypt from the clutches of the Pharoh.
God's son will also come out of Egypt.

Also ties in with Jesus at the time should get out of Judea, so that Herod does not kill him because he is trying to kill the Messiah, by killing all of the first born males. The same thing that Pharoh did in Egypt to try to kill Moses.

So Jesus's life is very similar to Moses's which means that Jesus must be the one spoken of in:

Deuteronomy 18:
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

If looked at from this perspective Hosea and Matthew's statement holds to be true.

Eesa

I'll reply latter to the rest. It's a heavy topic something I don't know too much about honestly. :-[

 

[Malaikah]

Muhammad completely contradict's this pacifist idea Jesus is so famous for. Muhammad pacifist ????? :?

So when an army comes to attack the Muslims, they are meant to not fight back and protect themselves? They should just give themselves up to die, not bother to protect their family and children, and therefore not give Islam the chance to spread at all because all the Muslims have been killed? :?

What is the point of being a pacifist when it means that evil people will end up abusing your refusal to fight back and cause great injustice in the land? How is that any good to anyone? The act of not fighting those who are going to abuse others is much worse than fighting in order to protect the innocent and stop wrong doers from taking over.

What about when the people of Mecca tortured and even killed people just for being Muslims, and then when the Muslims conquered Mecca, they didn't take revenge, they forgave them, even though those very same people had been the ones who tortured and killed them. Doesn't that show that the Prophet Muhammad was a peace lover.

Oh, and why don't you go read your own bible and explain to me why the there is so much blood shed ordered by God, especially with respect to the children of Isreal, and tell me does this sound like a pacifist? What happened? Did "god" only start being a pacifist when he manifest himself as Jesus? Keeping in mind that you Christians believe that God and Jesus are one and the same, then you believe it was Jesus who ordered those acts of blood shed in the OT, so how can you say Jesus was a pacifist?

 

[InToTheRain]

Muhammad completely contradict's this pacifist idea Jesus is so famous for. Muhammad pacifist ????? :?

Well obviously you haven't read the link I gave you, isn't it about time you did? the link provided in the last post is the Life story of our prophet(PBUH). Please read it and if you still are not convinced he was a pacifist (after reading it of course ) then I will be glad to see what you bring to the table..thread

 

[YEh]

So when an army comes to attack the Muslims, they are meant to not fight back and protect themselves? They should just give themselves up to die, not bother to protect their family and children, and therefore not give Islam the chance to spread at all because all the Muslims have been killed? :?

I see what your saying. But Jesus overcame his enemies with knowledge and love.
"Love your enemies, pray for those who persucute you".

Killing is killing in the Bible, when anybody sinned there was judgement.
God punished some people by using the Jews to execute judgement. Remember though this was under the time of the law (the law has been lifted from our neck, because it was fulfilled by Jesus on behalf of us). The same law that punished Adam and the human race from life to death. For just disobeying one command of God's.

What you are suggesting is known as relativism. Killing is allowed under certain circumstances. Who decides when it is defence ?

What is the point of being a pacifist when it means that evil people will end up abusing your refusal to fight back and cause great injustice in the land? How is that any good to anyone? The act of not fighting those who are going to abuse others is much worse than fighting in order to protect the innocent and stop wrong doers from taking over.

Well just look at what that stance leads to. Palestine, 50 years of war.
Individuals and small groups that kill people just for being non-muslim.
I mean human history is a testament to the fact that, give any excuse for people to kill other people for having a different opinion or disobeying laws they will use it.
Even the Catholic church somehow found an excuse to Murder.
When Jesus said, to never hurt anyone for any reason. "Turn the other cheek".

What about when the people of Mecca tortured and even killed people just for being Muslims, and then when the Muslims conquered Mecca, they didn't take revenge, they forgave them, even though those very same people had been the ones who tortured and killed them. Doesn't that show that the Prophet Muhammad was a peace lover.

While it was nice of him not to take revenge. He shouldn't have attacked them in the first place. It has made people think a matyr is someone who dies protecting the religion in battle. The Christian matyr is one who is killed without any weapons in his hand, only his voice.

Oh, and why don't you go read your own bible and explain to me why the there is so much blood shed ordered by God, especially with respect to the children of Isreal, and tell me does this sound like a pacifist? What happened? Did "god" only start being a pacifist when he manifest himself as Jesus?
Keeping in mind that you Christians believe that God and Jesus are one and the same, then you believe it was Jesus who ordered those acts of blood shed in the OT, so how can you say Jesus was a pacifist?

No, Jesus has fulfilled (completed) the law so there is no more judgements on earth until judgement day. We leave all judgements to God. Men tend to get it wrong. I don't want that on my record on judgement day.
Under the law, "the wages of sin is death". Just as Adam was setenced to be able to die when he sinned and cast from heaven, so it was when any man or woman sinned.

The law was put in place so that we may know, that we do in fact sin. Without the law we wouldn't know what was wrong. But under the law we know that sin is death and seperation from God.
God is Holy and cannot stand sinful people, unless a life is paid, for your sin. Hence the animal sacrifices in the OT.
So Jesus came to bridge that gap between us sinners and God, so that we may be saved from our impending death and punishment and have life with God now and in the hereafter.

You see the law cannot be obeyed by humans even though it is right and just. But with the help of the Holy Spirit we are no longer a slave to sin. We have been reborn spiritually of God, not of man. Jesus puts sin to death in us by washing our hearts clean with his blood (wash away sinfulness, where sin starts). So that we build our spirit up to resist temptation.

Sorry just wondering, did you read the conditions before commenting ?

Peace,

YEh

 

[Umar001]

Re: question to the christians

Sorry aboot that. How do you use this thing anyway ?

Well you have the thing in between the brackets. like:

But it'd say my name, then you put my words after that, then when you finish the sentence or paragraph that you want to quote you then write [/ QUOTE] Without any gaps.

You see it does mention that Jesus is here to wipe out the original sin, which keeps us from knowing God.
So the birth was a sign to say that just as one man who was created in a divine manner brought sin upon men, so will the saviour from that trespass be born in like manner.

Well that's presuming the Bible is correct in this statement.

But this has to do with specualtion of knowing all of God's ways. And we simply don't. That goes without saying I think.

Well then we can't use Jesus' birth to speculate his status.

But we do know that his birth was unique. Why would God have gone through all that trouble to make him born a sigificant way. If he is just another prophet ?

But that has to do with specualtion of knowing all of God's ways. And we simply don't.

Yes that's true, but this was the story of the creation of man. It was a once and only creation. Why is Jesus's birth made in such a unique special way also ?

But this has to do with specualtion of knowing all of God's ways. And we simply don't.

I think you might have missed the point a bit.

The point of Matthew quoting Hosea 11:1 is that. Just as Israel was affectionately called God's son. And was called out of Egypt from the clutches of the Pharoh.
God's son will also come out of Egypt.

Also ties in with Jesus at the time should get out of Judea, so that Herod does not kill him because he is trying to kill the Messiah, by killing all of the first born males. The same thing that Pharoh did in Egypt to try to kill Moses.

So Jesus's life is very similar to Moses's which means that Jesus must be the one spoken of in:

Deuteronomy 18:
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

If looked at from this perspective Hosea and Matthew's statement holds to be true.
Also Adam was the first human to be created. Jesus was the first time God was made into a human.

It's pretty simple bro, all you have to do is read it, the author of Matthew states that a prophecy was fufilled by Jesus when God said 'Out of Egypt I calld my son' so this means for that prophecy to be a prophecy of Jesus is must be referring to him. The fact that the author of the Gospel cuts the verse in half is suspicious when one reads the rest of the verse we find that this passage is not talking about Jesus at all it's talking about Israel and when God called Israel.

If you mean that there is a parralel ok I agree for arguement's sake, but to say that this is a prophecy of Jesus then this is wrong, because the Prophet writing it made it clear who he was speaking of in that very verse, only the Author of Matthew took the verse apart.

 

[Umar001]

Re: question to the christians

But since God is spirit and it is God's spirit which is breathed into us, and since no other creature is created in this way, that uniqueness of our spirit, which you seem to be inclined to agree with, then is something that we actually share with God and that God shares with no other creature.

Well this stems from the understanding of what is meant by 'God's' for example, you can say Eesa's Hand or Eesa's Coat, one is part of me and the other is owned by me.

I think you believe God's Spirit means a part of him and I believe it just means it's owned by him, and nonetheless a created thing. So whether we have it or not does not make us part of God or anything as such.

In other words, it is not a physical image that we share with God, it is a spiritual image. That which allows men and women to be receivers of eternal life is that fact that, like God, we are spiritual beings first and foremost, not merely creatures of flesh and blood. Despite the protestations I am sure to here from people worldwide who love their pets and want to see them in heaven, none of the rest of the animal kingdom is created as a spiritual being. Flesh and blood doesn't go to heaven, only our spiritual bodies. Or is this another area of difference between Christianity and Islam?

Well I dont think we share anything with God, I think God is nothing like us, we are his creation.

This is the fundamental difference which means that we both have then a different outlook.

I believe we have a soul/spirit and a body, and both these are created things which play part in our life and death.

Eesa.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: question to the christians

Well I dont think we share anything with God, I think God is nothing like us, we are his creation.

You may not see the difference in what I'm about to say, but that is my problem with not being able to express myself well, not in your understanding. Nonetheless I want to try.

I don't think God is anything like us either. As you said, we are his creation. But I do think that we are something like God. (I'm not creating any status of divinity to us.) That is, there is created within us something that God himself did that makes us intrinsically different than the rest of the animal creation. And that difference is the image of God in which each of us are created.

Of course in saying that we are something like God, it is on the order of saying that a raindrop is like the ocean. Or that a blade of grass is like the prairie. And even that is giving too much credit to the raindrop or the blade of grass. Because you don't just multiply us by a million, billion times to come up with God. In that sense we have to remember that we are created beings, and God is the creator. But what I mean is that God put something of himself within us. That is why we have a soul and animals don't. We can connect with God; no other created being can do that. It is the image of God created within us that makes this even possible.

And, as an aside, I think this is why atheists exist. They have had this image so marred that they no longer experience that connection. But, now I come close to getting off topic again.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: question to the christians

I don't think God is anything like us either. As you said, we are his creation. But I do think that we are something like God. (I'm not creating any status of divinity to us.) That is, there is created within us something that God himself did that makes us intrinsically different than the rest of the animal creation. And that difference is the image of God in which each of us are created.

Muslims don't have the concept of humans being created in the image of Allah; however, I can relate somewhat to what you are saying.

Quran 15:28-29 Remember when your Rabb said to the angels: "I am about to create a man from sounding clay, black mud moulded into shape; when I complete his moulding and breath into him of My spirit, kneel down and prostrate before him."

Yes, there is something about us that makes us different from animals. This something, the soul, is a mystery to me.

 

[YEh]

Re: question to the christians

It's pretty simple bro, all you have to do is read it, the author of Matthew states that a prophecy was fufilled by Jesus when God said 'Out of Egypt I calld my son' so this means for that prophecy to be a prophecy of Jesus is must be referring to him. The fact that the author of the Gospel cuts the verse in half is suspicious when one reads the rest of the verse we find that this passage is not talking about Jesus at all it's talking about Israel and when God called Israel.

If you mean that there is a parralel ok I agree for arguement's sake, but to say that this is a prophecy of Jesus then this is wrong, because the Prophet writing it made it clear who he was speaking of in that very verse, only the Author of Matthew took the verse apart.

It's a parallel and a prophecy. That's how prophecy is written in accient Hebrew.

This is a quote from some commentary on the verse.

PNT: 2:15 Out of Egypt have I called my son. The prophecy here quoted is found in Ho 11:1. Israel, which was called out of Egypt, is spoken of a son. Israel, however, was a type, and the events portrayed in Israelitish history were typical prophecies. That was the dispensation of types and shadows. Hence, the great outlines were prophetic, and the calling of Israel out of Egypt a prophecy of the Leader of the true Israel being called out of that land.

YEh

 

[YEh]

Re: question to the christians

Muslims don't have the concept of humans being created in the image of Allah; however, I can relate somewhat to what you are saying.

Quran 15:28-29 Remember when your Rabb said to the angels: "I am about to create a man from sounding clay, black mud moulded into shape; when I complete his moulding and breath into him of My spirit, kneel down and prostrate before him."

Yes, there is something about us that makes us different from animals. This something, the soul, is a mystery to me.

Even the concept of breathing God's spirit into us made it into the Quran. This was the image that we have, our soul. That effects us in ways such as when we do something good to others we also feel good (heart warming moment). And when we do something wrong we feel guilt (heavy of heart).
"We have the law written on our hearts".

YEh