Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

[HeiGou]

Is that right? We contribute nothing? Haha. Ok. That says it all. There isn't any point of me continuing this conversation with you if you're going to come out with bigotted statements like that.

I did not say nothing. I said nothing worth having or worth the risk of having them here. I am sorry that offends you, but after Canada I think it is true. Muslims are more likely to be unemployed, more likely to be in jail, more likely to be poor, more likely to drop out of school. While the unemployment rate in Britain is a little over 4 percent what is it for British Muslims? The Muslim community as a whole is clearly getting more money from the rest of British society than it is paying in taxes. The fuss over the British government's Terrorism Task Force shows the problem only too clearly - the British Muslim community does not take terrorism against people like me seriously.

Take the BBC's survey,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5111248.stm

A higher proportion of British Muslims are radicalised than those in several other major western European nations, according to a US research body.
....
However, almost a quarter thought suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets to defend Islam were justifiable - though among these some stated that this was rarely the case.
....
More than half of the British Muslims, 56%, believed Arabs were not responsible for the 9/11 terror strikes.

Some 69% ascribed three or more negative qualities to Westerners.

Only 47% of the German Muslims, the next highest figure among the European countries, were that critical.

In every negative characteristic they were asked about, British Muslims were the most likely to associated it with Westerners.

Some 67% saw them as selfish, while 64% attributed them with arrogance and 63% highlighted greed.

Another 57% thought Westerners were immoral, 52% said they were violent and 44% labelled them fanatical.

....

A total of 24% of the British Muslims questioned thought there were times when suicide bombing was acceptable.

That figure broke down into 3% who said it was often justifiable, 12% who said only sometimes, and 9% who thought it was only rarely acceptable.​

You think my concerns are bigotry? You don't think that reading this site and others I have grounds to be concerned?

 

[Bittersteel]

Is it not as if the Muslim world has much to offer except oil. And I don't think that is worth it. The reverts and the Western-born Muslims are non-issues. I no longer think they contribute anything worth having or at least worth the risks of them being here.

you are wrong.Muslim immigrants contribute a lot to your economy as well as other asians.

It is us. And you.

you made the situation like that.In a way and we are also to blame.

just like I said before if you don't like immigrants spit it out.even put a ban on it.we don't mind,in fact its going to do us a lot of help.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Yeah, exactly. We do contribute to the economy. I was raised in a family where alot of stress was put on dunya education, aswell as Islamic education.

 

[Bittersteel]

students from Muslim countries pay a lot.If there aren't foreign students ,it will have a bad impact on your economy even if it is minor.
BTW,my aunt is a great supporter of Blair and his aggressive and she as well as her sons are more religious than me.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Why would she want to support Blair?

 

[KAding]

you are wrong.Muslim immigrants contribute a lot to your economy as well as other asians.

Well, he is not saying Muslims are not contributing to the economy, only that their contribution is not worth the risk of increased social tension and even conflict. There are many less proud and more flexible people who badly want to enter the Eruope and who don't dislike our culture and values. I would say we should let more of those in (Sub-saharan africans, Asians and South-Americans) and less people from Muslim countries, I believe they will have less objections adapting to our cultural norms.

I truely think it would be better for everyone. I too am really starting to wonder whether peaceful coexistance within our societies can be assured with such major cleavages between different groups. Mind you, I am not saying we are destined to have a conflict, but the simple fact is that the chance of social conflict increases dramatically.

you made the situation like that.In a way and we are also to blame.

just like I said before if you don't like immigrants spit it out.even put a ban on it.we don't mind,in fact its going to do us a lot of help.

I don't dislike immigration. In fact, I think we should have more of it, and not just limit it to those who seek political asylum. Yet, when letting people into the country we should make sure that social peace in the long term is not treathened. We can see all over the world how easy ethnic and religious tensions can flare up and end up in massive conflict. Heck, Yugoslavia was a fairly highly developed and educated country, yet it ended in bloodshed. Decreasing the chance of something like that happening is important if we want to keep living in peace.

Again, I do not believe it will happen any time soon, but apparently we are already at the point that some segments of society want to blow up other segments and vise versa. Not a good evolution.

 

[Bittersteel]

Why would she want to support Blair?

she really hates terrorists.she doesn't want the actions of terrorists affecting her image and their lives see?

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

So? She can dislike terrorists and still not support Blair. That snake whose hands are stained bright red with the blood of innocent Muslims.

 

[HeiGou]

Is it not as if the Muslim world has much to offer except oil. And I don't think that is worth it. The reverts and the Western-born Muslims are non-issues. I no longer think they contribute anything worth having or at least worth the risks of them being here.

you are wrong.Muslim immigrants contribute a lot to your economy as well as other asians.

Especially other Asians. I agree Muslim contribute, but how much do they give compared to how much they take?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4771233.stm

Muslim hardship under spotlight

Many Muslims in England face bleak employment prospects and endure poor standards of housing, a government-backed study has found.

The report revealed Muslims were more likely than any other faith group to be jobless and living in poor conditions.

It said 14% of Muslims aged over 25 were unemployed, compared with the national unemployment rate of 4%.

University researchers in Birmingham, Derby, Oxford and Warwick also found Muslims had poorer levels of education.

The study, commissioned to review the prospects of faith communities in England, also said Muslims were more vulnerable to long-term illness.

And one in three lived in the most deprived areas of England.

'Multiple deprivation'

"Taking the Muslim population as a whole, they face some of the most acute conditions of multiple deprivation," the report said.

John Prescott's former department, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM), commissioned the academics to review data on the Hindu, Sikh and Muslim communities.

As well as highlighting the disadvantages suffered, the report found members of these communities were likely to remain concentrated in the same areas.

This was because families wanted to stay close together and many prefer to live near to their places of worship.

Researchers reviewed a variety of data, including information from the 2001 national census.

The government will use the study in its work to encourage equal opportunities for members of all religious communities, a spokeswoman said.​

All that suggests that Muslims are more likely to get benefits, more likely to be on unemployment handouts, less likely to pay taxes, less likely to stay in education.

But there is one thing the Muslim communities of Britain, and ONLY the Muslim communities of Britain, have contributed to British life. What would that be?

It is us. And you.

you made the situation like that.In a way and we are also to blame.

I do not think so. No doubt the West could have done other things, but I think this problem would exist anyway. Just as the Romans did nothing to provoke an attack at Tabuk. Canada clearly shows there are people out there trying to kill kafirs with no justification whatsoever. And if Canada does not show it the conviction of four Danish Muslims for planned attacks on Churches shows that it is true in Denmark.

just like I said before if you don't like immigrants spit it out.even put a ban on it.we don't mind,in fact its going to do us a lot of help.

I am an immigrant. I have no problems with immigrants. The period of large scale Muslim immigration to the West is over - and I expect to India too. If you think that will help you it looks like a win-win situation to me.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Or how about we gas the Muslims in concentration camps.:rollseyes

 

[HeiGou]

Or how about we gas the Muslims in concentration camps.:rollseyes

How about we enforce Islamic law but with you as the Dhimmis? How about we start with "no Muslims in the European peninsular".

Going to that extreme is absurd. There is no need for it. You'd be happier in a Muslim country. I'd be happier if a lot of your fellow Muslims were in a Muslim country. I see an obvious solution to all our problems.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Why would you be happier?
I'm going to extreme lengths because your statements are bigotted.

 

[Muezzin]

What does all this mudslinging have to do with the first post?

Please stay on-topic. My deleting sprees tend to offend.

 

[HeiGou]

Why would you be happier?

Because despite all the denials terrorism has anything to do with Islam, it clearly has something to do with the Muslim community. Presumably, given the total lack of understanding about why young Muslim men blow themselves up and the complete indifference to said fact and the utter lack of effort from the Muslim community's leadership to do anything about it whatsoever, a certain unknown percentage of young Muslim men will attempt to blow themselves up on a regular basis. This year. Next year. The year after that. So the only viable solution to lowering the risk is to lower the number of young Muslim men. It may surprise you but I do not care to be blown up.

I'm going to extreme lengths because your statements are bigotted.

How are they bigoted? To be a bigot would imply an ignorant and unreasonable belief. The longer I am here, the more I learn, the less tolerant I become. I can only take so many promises to cut my head off and posts praising murderers. I have a well informed, totally reasonable belief that a certain, but unknown, percentage of Muslims would like to see me die. I have a well informed, totally reasonable belief that a large number of Muslims would like to see this country and my homeland invaded and me and mine reduced to second-class citizens. I have a well informed, totally reasonable belief that long-term co-existence is unlikely if not impossible between Muslims and non-Muslims. Don't blame me for listening to you all and believing what you tell me. Just look at the article that started this thread off.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Good Morning?

Wow! I can see this thread has deteriorated to sludge over-night. Would love to see all your faces at the Council. You know, pointing fingers and playing the game 'Who's the Terrorist?' won't help anyone's cause, since the 'powers-that-be' have gone out of the way to prove to me that anyone can be reduced to base behavior... ragardless of their country of origin or their religion. I could be wrong, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to collect and discuss issues - not promote world-wide anarchy.

The King of Jordan has given in to un-Islamic behavior. Bush has given in to un-Christian behavior. I don't know why he (of all people) insists the world recognize Israel anyway... it's a blasphemy to those who were... Israelites - and the 'prophesy' that convinced him hasn't been fulfilled... I don't see the other ten tribes living there, nor has harmony been restored between those tribes! Live by the sword, Die by the sword... and nothing's been accomplished in the process. I guess some things never change, but while we're all pointing fingers (holds up the mirror), show me what it is you see that is so much better than any other living, breathing thing?

Humanity is reducing itself to the level of animals - the hunters and the hunted. I don't care who started it, or whose fault it is... let's worry about fixing this! If you can't get yourself BEYOND the natures that currently rule this problem, then gracefully bow out... I'll understand. But enough of the finger-pointing and name calling... we have leaders who have proven to us that it solves nothing!!!

Ninth Scribe

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Good Morning?

Wow! I can see this thread has deteriorated to sludge over-night. Would love to see all your faces at the Council. You know, pointing fingers and playing the game 'Who's the Terrorist?' won't help anyone's cause, since the 'powers-that-be' have gone out of the way to prove to me that anyone can be reduced to base behavior... ragardless of their country of origin or their religion. I could be wrong, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to collect and discuss issues - not promote world-wide anarchy.

On the contrary I think that playing "who's the terrorist" is an excellent start. After all terrorism is the problem. Theoretically we are all opposed to it. Well most of us are. In practice of course I do not get the impression that anyone much is willing to do anything about it. But it worth a try. Doing nothing is the best way to promote world-wide anarchy. To prevent crime criminals must be punished.

 

[Muezzin]

Re: Good Morning?

On the contrary I think that playing "who's the terrorist" is an excellent start. After all terrorism is the problem. Theoretically we are all opposed to it. Well most of us are. In practice of course I do not get the impression that anyone much is willing to do anything about it. But it worth a try. Doing nothing is the best way to promote world-wide anarchy.

The Muslim leaders in the article you posted did do something. In fact, they condemned terrorist actions, just as you (as a person) have wanted all along. Thus, I am thoroughly confused (to put it lightly) why you are still not satisfied?

The best thing to do would be to reach out to those most susceptible to become terrorists, or want to blow themselves up. What do ya know, most of them tend to be young, Muslim males - which is just the demographic being targeted by these preventative initatives.

Obviously, it's not going to destroy terrorism overnight, but it's a start.

To prevent crime criminals must be punished.

Who has said anything otherwise?

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Good Morning?

The Muslim leaders in the article you posted did do something. In fact, they condemned terrorist actions, just as you (as a person) have wanted all along. Thus, I am thoroughly confused (to put it lightly) why you are still not satisfied?

Why did they do something?

Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Islamic leaders across Birmingham have issued a joint message against terrorism in a bid to tackle mistrust of Muslims in the UK.​

So they did not do it because killing innocent people was wrong, or because they felt they had any need to apologise or clarify what Islam is all about, but because the bombings were bad PR. Can you see why this leaves me less than impressed?

Anyway did they condemn terrorist actions?

The religious edict makes clear the killing of innocent victims is against the principles of Islam.​

Bin Laden et al claim that because British voters vote for the British government which attacks Muslims, British people are not innocent. This statement adds nothing we did not know. The problem is not that Mr Khan and his friends did not know this, it is that they thought the people they were going to kill were not innocent. If they have any other associates out there, will this add anything to their knowledge? Not if they think British voters and taxpayers are all guilty.

The message is thought to be the first joint statement made by Muslim scholars in the UK against terrorism.​

How long did that take?

The best thing to do would be to reach out to those most susceptible to become terrorists, or want to blow themselves up. What do ya know, most of them tend to be young, Muslim males - which is just the demographic being targeted by these preventative initatives.

I agree with that. But I can't do that. Tony Blair can't do that. It needs the leadership of the Muslim communities to do that and so far their only response has been to blame the British and demand money to convert British people to Islam as far as I can see.

Obviously, it's not going to destroy terrorism overnight, but it's a start.

The worst thing about the alleged Canadian plot is that all the Muslims there knew that radical violent sermons were being preached and they did nothing. The guy took the rubbish out for them. Nothing is going to destroy terrorism over night except perhaps an equivalent of the Sharon Plan - a big Wall. But if even in Canada Muslims will do nothing when they hear messages of violence being preached what is the alternative?

 

[Muezzin]

Re: Good Morning?

Why did they do something?

Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Islamic leaders across Birmingham have issued a joint message against terrorism in a bid to tackle mistrust of Muslims in the UK.​

So they did not do it because killing innocent people was wrong, or because they felt they had any need to apologise or clarify what Islam is all about, but because the bombings were bad PR. Can you see why this leaves me less than impressed?

I saw that too. Nevertheless, it's better than nothing.

Anyway did they condemn terrorist actions?

The religious edict makes clear the killing of innocent victims is against the principles of Islam.​

Bin Laden et al claim that because British voters vote for the British government which attacks Muslims, British people are not innocent. This statement adds nothing we did not know. The problem is not that Mr Khan and his friends did not know this, it is that they thought the people they were going to kill were not innocent. If they have any other associates out there, will this add anything to their knowledge? Not if they think British voters and taxpayers are all guilty.

What? Maybe they should have said 'civilians'. I think, quite frankly, you're getting lost in semantics. The message seemed quite clear to me.

The message is thought to be the first joint statement made by Muslim scholars in the UK against terrorism.​

How long did that take?

Long enough.

I agree with that. But I can't do that. Tony Blair can't do that. It needs the leadership of the Muslim communities to do that and so far their only response has been to blame the British and demand money to convert British people to Islam as far as I can see.

This is true. I do think part of the problem is that certain of these susceptible youths have a negative image of themselves as Muslims, which is reinforced by outside factors. E.g. a slightly overweight child becomes morbidly obese following repeated taunts that he's fat.

However, the main thing is to condemn the killing of civilians.

The worst thing about the alleged Canadian plot is that all the Muslims there knew that radical violent sermons were being preached and they did nothing. The guy took the rubbish out for them. Nothing is going to destroy terrorism over night except perhaps an equivalent of the Sharon Plan - a big Wall. But if even in Canada Muslims will do nothing when they hear messages of violence being preached what is the alternative?

Oh, I don't know, piling all the Muslims in gas chambers like all the rest of history's scapegoats.

More seriously, people do need to learn to speak up and tell the police. I think they might think that they're 'ratting out' their fellow brothers, and thus sinning. I think this perception needs to change - I've been taught, if you're confronted with someone willing to commit attrocities in the name of your religion, then try to talk them out of it, but if that doesn't work tell the police.

I only talk for myself and likeminded individuals though. I can't make people report this kind of thing.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Good Morning?

but because the bombings were bad PR. Can you see why this leaves me less than impressed?

I saw that too. Nevertheless, it's better than nothing.

I don't know. When there was nothing we all knew where we stood.

Anyway did they condemn terrorist actions?

What? Maybe they should have said 'civilians'. I think, quite frankly, you're getting lost in semantics. The message seemed quite clear to me.

Maybe they should have. Maybe they very carefully chose their words to mean what they said and no more. As I have said before, I think they are aiming this at the wrong people. People like me and not like the bombers. I would like to think there is no need to send you this message, but the semantics matter when it comes to the people it is aimed at.

However, the main thing is to condemn the killing of civilians.

Totally with you on that.

The worst thing about the alleged Canadian plot is that all the Muslims there knew that radical violent sermons were being preached and they did nothing. The guy took the rubbish out for them. Nothing is going to destroy terrorism over night except perhaps an equivalent of the Sharon Plan - a big Wall. But if even in Canada Muslims will do nothing when they hear messages of violence being preached what is the alternative?

Oh, I don't know, piling all the Muslims in gas chambers like all the rest of history's scapegoats.

Only happened once. Most of history's scapegoats don't get gassed. Nor is the analogy right for two reasons: one, it is a gross overstatement and two, the whole point of the scapegoat is that he took the communities sins on himself, being otherwise innocent. It is not the British community that is producing bombers, but a very specific sub-section of that community.

More seriously, people do need to learn to speak up and tell the police. I think they might think that they're 'ratting out' their fellow brothers, and thus sinning. I think this perception needs to change - I've been taught, if you're confronted with someone willing to commit attrocities in the name of your religion, then try to talk them out of it, but if that doesn't work tell the police.

Totally with you there.

I only talk for myself and likeminded individuals though. I can't make people report this kind of thing.

True. But if people like you cannot, no one can.