Muslim Nationalism - Fact or Fiction?

[CosmicPathos]

My way to deal with it is I am not becoming an internist. I cant work with idiots in an hospital. Hospital is an extremely toxic environment for me. I cant have people telling me what to do, especially when they know no better.

And from the care given that I've seen, I'll prefer to die at home.

I will do what my family med preceptor did. An amazing and an intellectual doc, doing his own practice in the suburbs. No feet to lick. He told me the same thing "I wanted to do derm but I cannot work with idiots. I am satisfied with my family practice."

 

[جوري]

internists are some of the more cerebral doctors believe it or not.. At any rate, it won't get better.. hate to be so pessimistic, you just got to learn all you can and keep your feelings to yourself. That's how it works.. It is also the reason there are two ways out, suicide or postal.

 

[TJ-alcapone]

ughhhh.. we should impose tariff on these platitudinal sermons!

Ironic that a fundamentalist like you should be saying that. Had someone actually imposed that upon you, maybe the amount raised would suffice the needs of a few African villages.

 

[CosmicPathos]

internists are some of the more cerebral doctors believe it or not.. At any rate, it won't get better.. hate to be so pessimistic, you just got to learn all you can and keep your feelings to yourself. That's how it works.. It is also the reason there are two ways out, suicide or postal.

there is always someone more cerebral. it does not make them gods.

Only I wish I was in a position as a staff to show them their worth.

she gave 0.9% saline. It has 154mEq/L Na+, higher than plasma. Good for resuscitation cuz of isotonicity but bad when kidneys dont function.

 

[جوري]

she gave 0.9% saline. It has 154mEq/L Na+, higher than plasma. Good for resuscitation cuz of isotonicity but bad when kidneys dont function.

I enjoy that you make every post an opportunity to learn.. I come here to be amused by atheist musings .. let's keep it that way

 

[جوري]

Ironic that a fundamentalist like you should be saying that. Had someone actually imposed that upon you, maybe the amount raised would suffice the needs of a few African villages.

I put the fun in fundie.. now African villagers pay me

best,

 

[CosmicPathos]

I enjoy that you make every post an opportunity to learn.. I come here to be amused by atheist musings .. let's keep it that way

nerds are cool.

see? i am genuinely interested in learning. but in a nice way.

 

[جوري]

I suppose it works to ward off the trolls in a queer sort of way..

 

[Pygoscelis]

In example Muslim are allowed to help non-Muslims who are in hungry or disaster, but not allowed to help non-Muslims fight Muslims.

Does it matter who is in the right in the particular situation? Or will you just side with and fight with the muslim, simply because they are muslim and the other isn't, despite everything else?

 

[ardianto]

Does it matter who is in the right in the particular situation? Or will you just side with and fight with the muslim, simply because they are muslim and the other isn't, despite everything else?

If my brother bully innocent person I must stop him and protect the victim. If my brother still bully this innocent person, so I must fight him. But if someone ask me to help him bully my brother, of course I should refuse this request and stand with my brother.

Actually my first post was refering to case like in Gulf War when Bush (sr) asked Muslim majority countries to send troops and fight side by side with US Army.

 

[~Zaria~]

Although there is certainly an amount of generalization, sounds like my comments are far more fact than fiction.

Your statements are a complete generalisation. Where are the facts that you are referring to?

1) Issues in a global world: Like it or not, many countries are fast turning multi-cultural these days. There are muslims all across Europe and in America, the count slightly increases each year, as is the case in Australia. Muslims come into these secular societies and bring along the baggage that their ideology comes with. But the expectation of people of those societies is for people to assimilate, or at the very least not cause hindrance with the proceedings in the country. But because of the strong sense of solidarity, that turns into separatism. Not only that Islam brings in its own version of morality and the law, which is often in conflict with the existing practices of the nation. Especially in the UK, you constantly find Muslims breaking the law and bringing in the sharia where it doesn't apply. So non-muslim societies dislike this for obvious reasons and mistrust starts to grow. Also there is an expectation from the rest of society towards Muslim immigrants to take pride in the history and culture of the lands that they immigrate to (I personally think patriotism is a stupid idea anyway). But muslims show far greater support for Muslim lands rather than the countries that they are living in. So especially in times like these, that results in growth of social divides which is never healthy.

We do not apologise for our islamic identity, our unity based on the Oneness of God and His messenger, nor our love for each other as a brothers and sisters in Islam.
A strong believer will remain resistant to assimilating the culture and ways of others - which are not in accordance to the commands of our Creator or His messenger (peace be upon him).
Islam is a way of life - that encompasses EVERYTHING: from the manner we eat, dress, relate to one another, our marriages, burials, etc - are all laid out for us in the Quraan and/or in the way of life of the most beloved to us, Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).
Why do you expect us to adopt another way of life - developed by man......when we have the most ideal way of living - developed by God?

And as you say - 'patriotism is a stupid idea anyway'.

2) Fundamentalism and hatred in Islam as a political ideology. Islam in its current for, allows and encourages hatred more than other religions. And politicians reap the full benefits to that. Christianity had to go through the same thing 400 years back, but it has largely cleansed itself of the use of the religion as a political ideology. Islam is going through that now with the arab spring uprisal. This fundamentalism is also the cause for violent and hate fueled attitudes. Take the danish cartoons incident for example, there was almost world wide protests, vandalism and rioting, in Islamic countries. Many people who had nothing to do with the incident had to pay with their lives and property.

This is another generalisation.

Please refer to this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/134316258-why-violence.html and hopefully you will gain more understanding.

Personally, I believe solidarity based on religion or nationalism is very dangerous and harmful to society.

If you take some time to learn about this beautiful, all encompassing and meaningful way of life called Islam, you most certainly will realise that this is not the case.

Go ahead - open a Quraan and read the words of your Creator for yourself.....rather than judging a religion by its followers.

The truth can only be found if actually we make the effort to go directly to its source.


Peace

 

[TJ-alcapone]

Does it matter who is in the right in the particular situation? Or will you just side with and fight with the muslim, simply because they are muslim and the other isn't, despite everything else?

This is the philosophical position of some muslims that I simply don't understand. I ask some muslims if they would suspend their morality for the sole reason of showing support to a fellow Muslim, and they say yes. And the justification they give for such an action is that supposedly muslims can't be any different from one another if they are following the same religion. And this clearly cannot be the case as every individual has distinct differences from another in the way the extrapolate from the same theology. And this propensity to place their support for fellow muslims beyond all rationale, is in my opinion a very dangerous habit.

 

[جوري]

what do we call an atheist trying to ingratiate himself to another atheist whom he presumes will react in a similar fashion to the proposed stimulus?
hmmmmmn - well aside from the obvious projection, frank tribalism!

 

[TJ-alcapone]

Your statements are a complete generalization. Where are the facts that you are referring to?

The opinion that I had that there is a nationalistic element in Islam. And even you seem to be abiding by this Pan-Islamism. I don't understand what the problem is. It is a generalization, but not without truth.

We do not apologise for our islamic identity, our unity based on the Oneness of God and His messenger, nor our love for each other as a brothers and sisters in Islam.

Islam is a way of life - that encompasses EVERYTHING: from the manner we eat, dress, relate to one another, our marriages, burials, etc - are all laid out for us in the Quraan and/or in the way of life of the most beloved to us, Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).

Well in that case Muslims should not move into secular societies and should remain in Islamic states. If I move from the US to lets say Iran, it is a given that I have to abide by the law of the place, if not I could be legally prosecuted against. Simple. I am not expecting muslims to shed their belief systems. But the least that they can do is abide by the law and not come in conflict with it. Especially given that most secular systems are built to allow most amount of freedom to the individual. And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

A strong believer will remain resistant to assimilating the culture and ways of others - which are not in accordance to the commands of our Creator or His messenger (peace be upon him).

This is again the fundamental nature of the way you interpret your religion. People don't live in boxes. Their belief systems come in contact and conflict with the outside world at times. That is why there are constitutions and legislation to allow the freedoms of everyone. But muslims seem to live in their own deluded world forcing their belief systems onto others. Lets say if my mother was to move to Saudi Arabia, for whatever she can't drive there. If she did try to break the law, she'd be punished. If Muslims expect such laws to be enacted in secular countries, they are very mistaken.

Go ahead - open a Quraan and read the words of your Creator for yourself.....rather than judging a religion by its followers.

The truth can only be found if actually we make the effort to go directly to its source.

Firstly, he is not my creator. He doesn't exist. And believe me, apart from the lack of evidence for god, I still went ahead and read many holy books Including the Old testament, the new testament the quran, bhagavat gita, The Upanishads, the guru granth sahib and a few other religious texts. The Quran would easily place first as the most oppressive, violence encouraging and fundamentalism inducing peace of text.

Again I constantly re-evaluate my world view, asking myself what the justifications are and if it is rationally feasible for me to hold such views. Moreover there is ample space for doubt, curiosity and ignorance (something very important for science). On the other hand fundamentalists start with the assumption that their religions book is all encompassing, perfect in every way and is the only source for knowledge. That, as I have said countless times before like a broken record, is not a habit that I would ever encourage.

 

[TJ-alcapone]

what do we call an atheist trying to ingratiate himself to another atheist whom he presumes will react in a similar fashion to the proposed stimulus?
hmmmmmn - well aside from the obvious projection, frank tribalism!

--- Philosophical agreement and extension of a point is not akin to tribalism. ---

 

[Pure Purple]

Well in that case Muslims should not move into secular societies and should remain in Islamic states. If I move from the US to lets say Iran, it is a given that I have to abide by the law of the place, if not I could be legally prosecuted against. Simple. I am not expecting muslims to shed their belief systems. But the least that they can do is abide by the law and not come in conflict with it. Especially given that most secular systems are built to allow most amount of freedom to the individual. And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

In that case non muslims should not intervene in their matters and land where they are living.Non muslim do violating rules by killing innocence..you know very well about gujrat riots .what kind of secularism is this?

 

[جوري]

He doesn't exist. And believe me

Here's an oxymoron- ---

 

[Pure Purple]

And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

if you feel muslims don't respect others beliefs why don't you tell non muslims engage in debate and discussion to explain muslims .

 

[~Zaria~]

The opinion that I had that there is a nationalistic element in Islam. And even you seem to be abiding by this Pan-Islamism. I don't understand what the problem is. It is a generalization, but not without truth.

I refer to this statement made in your OP:

For example, Muslims often speak out against the atrocities of war against Pakistan, Syria and other such Islamic countries. But by they same token, that don't seem to speak out against evils in the world that don't effect the Muslim world.

Which I have explained to be a generalisation of all muslims, and for which I have already given examples as evidence against it.

With regards to the brotherhood of muslims (which is a seperate issue), I have also provided you clear references for this - what do you still not understand?

Well in that case Muslims should not move into secular societies and should remain in Islamic states. If I move from the US to lets say Iran, it is a given that I have to abide by the law of the place, if not I could be legally prosecuted against. Simple. I am not expecting muslims to shed their belief systems. But the least that they can do is abide by the law and not come in conflict with it. Especially given that most secular systems are built to allow most amount of freedom to the individual. And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

There are christians, jews, hindus and guess what - even atheists who do not 'abide by the law' and 'come in conflict with it'.
What is your point?

Whatever example you may hold of the above - is certainly not from the teachings of Islam.

Again, you have chosen to take isolated incidents and generalise it to the entire community of muslims as not 'abiding to the law'.

Why do you not look at the other 99% of muslims who DO abide to the law - while still maintaining their Islamic identity?

But muslims seem to live in their own deluded world forcing their belief systems onto others. Lets say if my mother was to move to Saudi Arabia, for whatever she can't drive there. If she did try to break the law, she'd be punished. If Muslims expect such laws to be enacted in secular countries, they are very mistaken.

The world is spacious enough for all of us.
If you chose not to abide by the laws of a specific country, then move on elsewhere - and this applies to all of us, including muslims.

Firstly, he is not my creator. He doesn't exist. And believe me, apart from the lack of evidence for god, I still went ahead and read many holy books Including the Old testament, the new testament the quran, bhagavat gita, The Upanishads, the guru granth sahib and a few other religious texts. The Quran would easily place first as the most oppressive, violence encouraging and fundamentalism inducing peace of text.

Its amazing - the same piece of text, read by millions (no, billions) across the world, is the source of peace, brotherhood, love for mankind and equality irrespective of race.
Its the reason why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, because of the realisation of its beautiful teachings.


I will leave you with this verse from the Holy Quraan:

“Verily, Allah is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or what is smaller than it.

And as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: “What did Allah intend by this parable”

By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only the Fasiqin (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah)” (2:26).



I hope we have been sufficiently able to answer your queries.
And if not, then do know - 'Somethings are true, whether you believe it or not'.


All the best with your journey of knowledge.

Peace

 

[UmmuShaheed]

Asaalamu Alaikum
Thats the beautiful thing about Islam. We arent united by land, or blood, We are united by our submission to Allah. Swt
Its not nationalism, its following the verses of allah, and the ahadith Of our beloved prophet Mohamed May peace be upon him