Muslim Seeking a Refutation of Original Sin

A

AntiKarateKid

IB Expert
Messages
1,497
Reaction score
260
Gender
Male
Religion
Islam
Hey guys! I was recently discussing religion with one of my Christian Brothers who posed some questions for me. I told him I would get back to him on these when I have proper responses. That's why I came here. Brothers and Sisters, I know we don't believe in original sin and the Prophet(pbuh) said that no soul will ear the burden of another. But my friend asked that if that was true, and we aren't responsible for what others do, why have we been banished from the garden for Adam's sins? What I'm basically asking is shouldnt we be in the garden right now? Adam made a mistake but we didnt and why are we sufferrng for his mistake if his sins dontaffect us? An answer for htis would REALLY be appreciated!

Thanks for the help and I hope to be enlightened.
 
:sl:

This is not meant to be a complete answer, just my insight inshaallah.

Man kind was created to worship Allah, and to live this life as a test so that we may enter Paradise in the next life. It always the plan that we were going to end up on earth.

Other than that- when you think about it, we were never in the Garden in the first place, only Adam and Hawa ('Eve'), we ourselves never lived there and were never kicked out, so I don't see how we are being punished? I mean, if we were in the Garden with them and they ate and we didn't and then we got kicked out too, then I guess the arguemnt would hold.

Hope that helps. Please note again that this isn't meant to be an answer in and of itself, just a means of broadening the scope of thinking.
 
Greetings,
AntiKarateKid said:
Hey guys! I was recently discussing religion with one of my Christian Brothers who posed some questions for me. I told him I would get back to him on these when I have proper responses. That's why I came here. Brothers and Sisters, I know we don't believe in original sin and the Prophet(pbuh) said that no soul will ear the burden of another. But my friend asked that if that was true, and we aren't responsible for what others do, why have we been banished from the garden for Adam's sins? What I'm basically asking is shouldnt we be in the garden right now? Adam made a mistake but we didnt and why are we sufferrng for his mistake if his sins dontaffect us? An answer for htis would REALLY be appreciated!

Thanks for the help and I hope to be enlightened.
Click to expand...

You believe something without even knowing why? Do you value your intelligence that little?

Peace
 
:sl:

we are not 'suffering' as the sin of Adam alayhis salam was forgiven.

Surah Taha verse 115-123 translation states:

And indeed We made a covenant with Adam before, but he forgot, and We found on his part no firm will-power.

And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblîs* (Satan), who refused.

Then We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you be distressed in misery.

Verily, you have (a promise from Us) that you will never be hungry therein nor naked.

And you (will) suffer not from thirst therein nor from the sun's heat.

Then Shaitân (Satan) whispered to him, saying : "O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that will never waste away?"

Then they both ate of the tree, and so their private parts appeared to them, and they began to stick on themselves the leaves from Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray.

Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance.

(Allâh) said:"Get you down (from the Paradise to the earth), both of you, together, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then if there comes to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.
Click to expand...

and Surah Baqarah verse 35-38

And We said: "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers)."

Then the Shaitân (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time."

Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.

We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.
Click to expand...

and a hadith Qudsi states:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

also with regards to the verses from Surah Baqarah above, before that it states in verse 30 onwards...
And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.
They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.
He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide
Click to expand...
.

shows that even before Adam Alayhissalam was created Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala had planned the earth to be inhabited. not only that but Allah taught Adam alayhissalam the names of things, not the angels- and then commanded the angels to bow down to him. this shows the favour Allah granted Adam. it also shows how Adam was taught the different names of things. in tafsir ibn kathir, i think it was Ibn Abbas radhiallahu anhu who said it it states along the linesthat Adam was taught the names of pots and pans and even the name for breaking wind. of course we know in jannah it is a place of perfection and the angels themselves did not know these names yet Adam alayhissalam wa taught it all
so this shows although Adam alayhissalam was expelled from paradise in the manner, the earth was made to be dwelled in. and we are not on earth because of the sin of Adam but because of the Will of Allah. and Allah is Alla Knowing All Wise.
 
Last edited:
And if they deny thee, say: Unto me my work, and unto you your work. Ye are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what ye do. (10:41)
وَإِن كَذَّبُوكَ فَقُل لِّي عَمَلِي وَلَكُمْ عَمَلُكُمْ أَنتُمْ بَرِيئُونَ مِمَّا أَعْمَلُ وَأَنَاْ بَرِيءٌ مِّمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,


You believe something without even knowing why? Do you value your intelligence that little?

Peace
Click to expand...

Don't be silly, dun expect him to know everything, do you know everything? Maybe everything about English language buddy but not everything! Right now he believes Islam is the truth and for him that is sufficient the rest he will learn as he grows older, obviously if he had doubt in his head he can go elsewhere, but he dint, so that says somethin innay..

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.
 
Greetings,
Umma Wasat said:
Don't be silly, dun expect him to know everything, do you know everything?
Click to expand...

I know everything about what I believe, and I don't believe things just because someone tells me to. I relish the fact that I have intellectual freedom. You should too.

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,


I know everything about what I believe, and I don't believe things just because someone tells me to. I relish the fact that I have intellectual freedom. You should too.

Peace
Click to expand...

Excuse me, If I DID in fact believe everything without knowing why, I wouldn't be on this board asking the question now would I?^o) I critique my own beliefs from many different points of view and when a new challenge arises, such as the question from my Christian brother, I seek ANSWERS from my brothers who have more knowledge than me in certain areas of Islam. That comment of yours which assumed that I didn't value intellectual freedom is wrong in every way. You sir typify the average atheist who goes on looking at us an d our beliefs, smiling to himself because he thinks that he knows something we dont. Trust me, it is the other way around. We know something you don't and you can't grasp the greatest force mankind has..faith.
 
Greetings,
AntiKarateKid said:
That comment of yours which assumed that I didn't value intellectual freedom is wrong in every way.
Click to expand...

You've just demonstrated your blind obedience to something you've admitted you don't even understand. If that's intellectual freedom, then I'm a giraffe.

You sir typify the average atheist who goes on looking at us an d our beliefs, smiling to himself because he thinks that he knows something we dont. Trust me, it is the other way around. We know something you don't and you can't grasp the greatest force mankind has..faith.
Click to expand...

Fine, we obviously differ on that. There's no point in getting wound up about it, though, is there?

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,


I know everything about what I believe, and I don't believe things just because someone tells me to. I relish the fact that I have intellectual freedom. You should too.

Peace
Click to expand...

Peace

we believe that the one who claims he knows everything is a fool and infact knows nothing.
there is nothing wrong with asking questions, sometimes people become confused and ask even to settle their mind about their beliefs :) and that is one thing islam invites, that if we dont know something we must ask.
 
Greetings,

You've misread my post, amani. Don't worry - it happens a lot. :)

amani said:
we believe that the one who claims he knows everything is a fool and infact knows nothing.
Click to expand...

I didn't claim to know everything. That would obviously be a stupid thing to say. I said "I know everything about what I believe". Can you see the difference?


there is nothing wrong with asking questions, sometimes people become confused and ask even to settle their mind about their beliefs :) and that is one thing islam invites, that if we dont know something we must ask.
Click to expand...

I quite agree that there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Normally, though, it's better if those questions are in the pursuit of actual knowledge, rather than simply to find a new way of obeying arbitrary rules. One path leads to human development and progress; the other leads to blind faith and ignorance.

Peace
 
erm...i don't know why ppl like to kill other ppl's thread.

akhee...try to do a bit of search in this LI, i'm sure there are threads on this topic too :)
 
czgibson said:
Greetings

I didn't claim to know everything. That would obviously be a stupid thing to say. I said "I know everything about what I believe". Can you see the difference?
Click to expand...
yes i see the difference, i apologise for that.
we dont know about everything we believe. for example we believe in something called 'ilm ul ghaib' knowledge of the unseen- yet we do not know it. we believe in paradise and hell though do not know how it looks. we believe in angels- we dont not know how they look, yes we've had descriptions but not everything.

I quite agree that there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Normally, though, it's better if those questions are in the pursuit of actual knowledge, rather than simply to find a new way of obeying arbitrary rules. One path leads to human development and progress; the other leads to blind faith and ignorance.

Peace
Click to expand...

the question comes to what is 'actual knowledge?' where does actual knowledge come from? do you make it up, is that what is called development and progress? its not about blind faith because even with answers we have our own brains, we dont believe for the sake of it :)
 
Greetings,
amani said:
yes i see the difference, i apologise for that.
Click to expand...

No worries. :)
we dont know about everything we believe. for example we believe in something called 'ilm ul ghaib' knowledge of the unseen- yet we do not know it. we believe in paradise and hell though do not know how it looks. we believe in angels- we dont not know how they look, yes we've had descriptions but not everything.
Click to expand...

I would suggest to you that that is an unreasonable approach to things. However, since you are a religious person, you are unlikely to agree with me.


the question comes to what is 'actual knowledge?' where does actual knowledge come from?
Click to expand...

That is a very deep question which actually has a whole philosophical area of study devoted to it - epistemology. I could write a PhD thesis on it and still not answer your question conclusively.

In other words, nobody knows!

do you make it up, is that what is called development and progress?
Click to expand...

Development and progress come from a pragmatic application of knowledge. We use what works in order to move on.

its not about blind faith because even with answers we have our own brains, we dont believe for the sake of it :)
Click to expand...

Isn't your faith in ilm ul ghaib by definition blind?

Peace
 
Cool... :)

But please don't try to question the writer...coz i think the writer is not here (erm...probably he is...lol)

Just make general remark to the Muslims and InshaAllah probably there will be someone that knowledgeable enough to answer you.

I'll try to reply too...but i'm sure it'll not be a full or complete answer.

thanks
 
Greetings,
syilla said:
Cool... :)

But please don't try to question the writer...coz i think the writer is not here (erm...probably he is...lol)
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that criticising the writer would be my primary aim. There might be someone here willing to defend his views.

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,



Isn't your faith in ilm ul ghaib by definition blind?

Peace
Click to expand...

Hello

i wrote an answer yesterday and the comp crashed so ill see what i can remember.
i think you will agree with me on the knowledge of the unseen point atleast a little bit. With Allah is this knowledge and we believe so.
for example tomorrow- its going to happen but what is going to happen? i dont have that knowledge, that is unseen, my fate is known to Allah alone.
what is in the heavans and earth which we believe in is not known to us.

so we believe in these things though we do not know of it.
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top