Muslims belief about Trinity

[Jayda]

and whichever mod is editing my posts,

please stop changing the links i provide, they are important so that muslims understand how i understand their beliefs, and in making my own points about the similarity of catholic and muslim beliefs on these issues. i understand the desire to allow the muslim to 'win' but this is unacceptable and i won't participate if this continues.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[جوري]

hola,

when you address a dead person in prayer and apply honorifics to them and ask for them to speak to God for you, that's intercession, regardless of what the word means in arabic it's exactly the same thing.

Again, I don't understand what you mean here? perhaps you know something of Islamic prayers that the rest of us are unaware of? we don't ask anyone to intercede for us.. we pray to Allah directly.. prayer for us is different than prayer for you.. yours is more in concert with supplication than an actual ritual!

no, your second caliph did. see 4.b

replace the @ with an a.

Again, another failed website... I am starting to think you are doing it on purpose to prove a nonexisting point of your imagination?

the same thing mother means for anybody else, the woman that carried you and brought you into the world. when God decided to make Himself manifest and be among us (emmanuel) He chose a woman to bare Him into the world, Mary. when she did this and took care of Him as He grew she became His mother.

A mother of God means Goddess, and I am not sure where the chain would end...

please connect your algebra problem to whatever point it is you are attempting to make...

I thought I did? one doesn't equal three, three doesn't equal one it is simple arithmetic..!

and i do not understand why you are trying to pretend insulting mohamed is not blasphemy. on another thread we see that in sudan this is taken so seriously a woman faces 40 lashes for allowing kids in her class to name their teddy bears mohamed. it's part of your shahadah. contrary to what muslims often present you don't just have to believe in God without partners to go to heaven - you have to believe in mohamed as well.

believe in him as a messenger of God not his son or his mother or his uncle or God himself.. and yes we try to show some respect.. so he doesn't end up in walmart next to the "God' Jesus!

even the forum rules agree with me, we are not allowed to say anything blasphemous about islamic prophets.

So?

why then is it so different when we Catholics do it?

You are having a difficult time distinguishing the two. respect and worship!

until several hours ago you didn't even know what Tawasul was, i had to link you to a wikipedia article. i don't understand why i should consider you an expert now, or why a translation of the word from arabic to english stands as a definition.

atwasul ila Allah wa7do. You want to come teach me Arabic? or do you enjoy making a fool of yourself?

my article was this:

http://[email protected]/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4767&CATE=24

replace the @, with an 'a.' for some terribly convenient reason my link was changed last time, and it completely destroys your argument.

lol.. an expert on Arabic and always with a handy article.. the problem is this is the message we get each time we open them Oops! We can't find the webpage you're looking for
Here are some suggestions:


so how about you try harder, because I don't understand what you are trying to say replace a Z with a Q.. do you have a point pls?

well... you write letters to him and burn his effigy when you get angry. so i assume that muslims recognize him as a figurehead for our religion, consequently when he says something i assume it you would consider it authoritative. but you went to three years of Catholic school so you probably know more.

What are you trying to say? I think my knowledge from catholic school can hardly compare to your google failed websites..

we do not take Mary for God or like God. whatever it is you seem to think you have seen is simply not what you interpreted it to be. it's okay to accept you are not 100% right all the time.

You can take her for whatever you want, it is inconsequential to me.. the prayer asking her to intercede is shirk, calling her a mother of God is also shirk. You don't believe that, it is shirk, you believe that is proper worship and dear lady you are so entitled.. but it will not change the fact that it is what it is and fairly obvious to the naked eye!

it's not that you're telling me whether my beliefs are false or true. that wouldn't make a difference to me. it's that you are telling me what my beliefs are that bothers me, i'm sure the islamic opinion is that we commit shirk. that's fine, it's just a meaningless arabic word to me. but at least understand that your rationale is based upon a complete mischaracterization of our practices and beliefs.

it isn't a 'mis-characterization' it is what you do.. it is what there. A statue of Jesus in every church.. worship of Jesus as God, asking his mother to intercede, God sending himself as a spirit to take himself to the womb' depart from the world a period of nine months, and the time he dies to go to another God up above and still considering that monotheism. That dear lady doesn't require much studying, it is a basic tenet of christianity.. heck, it is even the title of this thread.. are you going to deny it now? Just accept your beliefs and move on, I hate arguing back and forth with adolescent comparisons, and I especially detest when fairy tales make it to religion...

I hope we are done here? I have no interest in dancing around the same point, you bringing failed websites on every thread to make an assimilation based on fallacious reasoning!

que Dios te bendiga

peace!

 

[جوري]

and whichever mod is editing my posts,

please stop changing the links i provide, they are important so that muslims understand how i understand their beliefs, and in making my own points about the similarity of catholic and muslim beliefs on these issues. i understand the desire to allow the muslim to 'win' but this is unacceptable and i won't participate if this continues.

que Dios te bendiga

No one is changing your posts.. I think it is under handed of you to write so. frankly yesterday I saw your post a minute from you writing it, and it still wasn't working then!
And it still not working today!.. and I guarantee it is because you are either quoting from a fraudulent website which would naturally be asterisked, in other words you are attempting to disseminate false information, which anyone can attest that you are, because I have already told you, such prayers don't exist in Islam! Or you genuinely don't know what you are talking about and just attempted in a haste manner to find any shady article on the web to make a moot point!

cheers!

 

[Jayda]

hola,

i'm not going to argue about whether i am an honest person with you. i am. i posted working links from reputable sources and i see that each time somebody has gone back and removed parts of them. you can still access them from the bottom of the wikipedia entry the mods graciously allowed me to post.

concerning the prayer i posted you can just google it. mods permitting, you can see another copy of it on this:

[sectarian link removed]

toward the bottom.

i am not going to argue with you about Catholicism. you're wrong for the reasons i explained, and there is no sense discussing this issue with you anymore. i'm not allowed to post information that goes against anything muslims say, you're not being civil and you aren't listening to me. i don't have the personality toenjoy being involved in that kind of stacked discussion.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[- Qatada -]

I had to remove the link because it was sectarian, sorry. Yes, the issue of seeking aid through dead saints is a part of Shi'ism, but not mainstream Sunni Islam - which this forum runs on.



Regards.

 

[Jayda]

qatada,

this is unacceptable. the other articles i provided were all sunni websites and about sunni, not shia islam. if you would at least link to the major websites, not even the articles, you could see that they are sunni. and why have you taken so long to note that my posts are being changed? you made me appear to be a liar or some sort of incompentent. and why am i allowed to be called a liar in PA's posts, isn't that breaking a forum rule?

i'm being patient explaining what Catholics believe so that people don't hold unfair stereotypes, but you and PA have tested my patience greatly by editing my articles and calling me names. this is not a fair or reasonable discussion.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[- Qatada -]

Jayda, the reason why them links are actually blocked out is simply because they are sectarian and against the mainstream Islam. They wouldn't be blocked or filtered if it was agreeing with the forums.

Islam actually called against calling out to dead people and calling out to God Alone, whether its for intercession or for any prayer. It's clearly stated in the Qur'an:

"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): So invoke not any one along with Allah;​

[Qur'an 72: 18]​

It's that simple, God can only benefit you - so ask of Him. You don't need to invoke anyone else besides Him. It's so simple, no-one needs to make the religion of God complicated.




Peace.

 

[Jayda]

Jayda, the reason why them links are actually blocked out is simply because they are sectarian and against the mainstream Islam. They wouldn't be blocked or filtered if it was agreeing with the forums.

Islam actually called against calling out to dead people and calling out to God Alone, whether its for intercession or for any prayer. It's clearly stated in the Qur'an:

"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): So invoke not any one along with Allah;​

[Qur'an 72: 18]​

It's that simple, God can only benefit you - so ask of Him. You don't need to invoke anyone else besides Him. It's so simple, no-one needs to make the religion of God complicated.




Peace.

hola,

sunnipath identifies itself as a sunni webpage. from it's about section it says:

Our knowledge is reliable because our teachers have been formally trained and authorized to transmit knowledge by leading scholars of the Muslim heartlands. They are meticulous in their conformity to the time-honored orthodoxy of Sunni Islam while sensitive to the circumstances of Muslims living in the modern world

is considered a very valuable resource on other sunni webpages. why should i ignore this simply because you have decided by fiat that their answers regarding tawassul do not conform to your version of sunni islam? and why should i accept that your beliefs about islam are correct simply because you are a muslim when you (collectively) insist that my beliefs about Catholicism are wrong despite the fact i am a Catholic?

and again, why did you take so long to at least acknowledge that my links were being removed? and why is it okay for PA to call me a liar? i agree that i looked very foolish and perhaps even like a liar when i quoted links that magically disappeared, but why would you stand idly by knowing there was a perfectly reasonable explanation for this when PA started to say that?

gracias

 

[MustafaMc]

I had to remove the link because it was sectarian, sorry. Yes, the issue of seeking aid through dead saints is a part of Shi'ism, but not mainstream Sunni Islam - which this forum runs on.

I agree with this assessment that Tawasuul is not a part of mainstream Islam. I have a book on Tawasuul, but since I had major trouble agreeing with the concept of seeking nearness to Allah through a "holy" intermediary, I read only a few pages before putting it away. My perception was (as Jayda indicated) that it is too close to shirk for me to be comfortable with. I pray directly to Allah without any intercessor.

 

[- Qatada -]

hola,

sunnipath identifies itself as a sunni webpage. from it's about section it says:

I've explained through PM:

They may call themselves sunni since the people of the Prophetic guidance (Sunnah) have been labelled as the saved group by the Prophet himself.

However, those whose way we follow is the way of the Qur'an, the Sunnah [Prophetic guidance] and the understanding of his companions, since they were the direct recipients of the message. It's the final concept which many of the other groups who claim to be sunnis stray from. Which includes those sites which you linked.​

is considered a very valuable resource on other sunni webpages. why should i ignore this simply because you have decided by fiat that their answers regarding tawassul do not conform to your version of sunni islam?

It's part of the forum policy:

No sectarian issues allowed. We are promoting the unity of Islam. Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-An'âm, verse 159:


Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad -- Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allâh, Who then will tell them what they used to do. 15% warning
​

http://www.islamicboard.com/faq/forum-rules/#faq_warning_levels
​

and why should i accept that your beliefs about islam are correct simply because you are a muslim when you (collectively) insist that my beliefs about Catholicism are wrong despite the fact i am a Catholic?

I'm not compelling you to accept my faith, however - the fact that it is the most purest monotheistic faith in the world, then i'm sure that this is the most correct, and i desire that you are guided, the same way you desire that for us all. However, i think we should simply pray to God alone without any intermediaries and ask Him to guide us all aright to what He loves.

and again, why did you take so long to at least acknowledge that my links were being removed? and why is it okay for PA to call me a liar? i agree that i looked very foolish and perhaps even like a liar when i quoted links that magically disappeared, but why would you stand idly by knowing there was a perfectly reasonable explanation for this when PA started to say that?

gracias

I'm sorry on sister PA's behalf, i never responded earlier since i only came online around half an hour ago.




Peace.

 

[Jayda]

PA can apologize for herself if she feels like she wants to. i don't want apologies i just wanted people to know i was not being dishonest. i have absolutely no desire to continue this conversation though, it exists to spread lies about christianity and clearly any attempt on our part to explain otherwise is not allowed, not welcome and not heard.

 

[جوري]

Thank you br.Qatada

Jayda.. I have nothing to apologize for. You have quoted links that don't reconcile with Islamic beliefs 90% of Muslims are sunni.. NO ONE edited the sites for you, it was automatically done by the forum the same way if you were to write w a h a b i, it would automoatically be censored. That should have been your clue to the legitimacy of the websites you bring to make a point.

And the point in and of itself is a strawman..a very basic fundamental difference between our religions is that you take Jesus for God or the son of God, and we don't,these beliefs don't reconcile with monotheism or with Islam.. that is shirk.... it might not mean anything to you as you have stated just an Arabic word.. but it bewilders me how you are so familiar with 'tawassul' but not familiar with shirk?
Islamic jurisprudence and fiqh isn't subject to conversation between two lay people.. one who is learning and the other of a different religion all together wanting to draw similarities where none exist


peace!

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Here's a really good link about tawassul, with authentic info from the Qur'an and Sunnah and the understanding of the companions of the Prophet:

Tawassul:
http://islamtoday.com/show_quest_section.cfm?main_cat_id=13&sub_cat_id=71



Here's one article:

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=300&main_cat_id=13


​

The Prophet (peace be upon him) warned us against such practices, even with respect to his own grave.


`Â’ishah relates the following:

When death approached Allah’s Messenger, he began putting a sheet of his on his face. When he became hot and distressed because of it, he would remove it and say: “Allah’s curse is upon the Jews and the Christians, because they took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship.” The Prophet was warning the Muslims against what they had done. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (1/112, 4/144, 5/140) and Sahîh Muslim (1/377)]

Had it not been for the fear that it would be taken as a mosque, his grave would have been in an open place. [Sahîh Muslim (1/376)]

​

The Prophet (peace be upon him) was so stern in prohibiting people from taking graves as places for Allah’s worship, cursing those who did so, because it is a practice that ultimately leads people to polytheism.

So what can we say about those people who actually direct their worship to the denizens of the graves, offer sacrifices to them, supplicate to them, swear oaths by them, or circumambulate their graves?


Al-Qurtubî writes, commenting on this matter:

Therefore, the Muslims went to great lengths to block the tendency to do so at the grave of the Prophet (peace be upon him). They raised the dirt walls around it high, completely surrounding it and blocking off the entrances to it. Then they feared that the location of his grave might be turned into a direction for prayer, because it was in the direction the worshippers face and some of them might get the idea that facing it was an act of worship. For this reason, they built two walls at the northern corners of the grave and placed them at a slant so that they would form a triangle with on of its corners pointing to the North. In this way, no one could be able to directly face the grave while making his prayer. [Al-Qurtubî, al-Mufhim lima Ashkal min Talkis Kitâb Muslim (2/128)]

​

This shows us how Allah protected the grave of the Prophet (peace be upon him) as an answer to his prayer when he said: “O Allah! Do not let my grave become an idol that people worship.”[al-Muwatta’ as narrated by Yahyâ b. Yahyâ al-Laythî (p. 414) The hadîth is related by `Atâ’ b. Yasâr with a discontinuous chain of narration.] Those who insist on directing themselves to it can only do so with their hearts, because it is quite impossible to actually face it or even reach it.


If a person merely visits the graves of these saints and considers doing so a pious act, then that person is engaged at the very least in a very serious form of innovation.

If that person asks something of the people buried there, calls upon them, bows or prostrates to them, or believes that they can benefit him in any way, then he is undoubtedly committing polytheism of the worst kind.



​

 

[MustafaMc]

i don't see why it's any different than this prayer: "O Allah, we used to beseech You by means of (the du'a of) Your Prophet for rain and You would give us rain; now we beseech You by means of (the du'a of) the paternal uncle of Your Prophet, so grant us rain"

The question is whether or not the person being asked to make a supplication on one's behalf is alive or dead. Why would one beseech al-Abbaas ibn 'Abdul-Muttalib (Prohet's uncle) to pray on their behalf rather than the Prophet with clearly a higher status before Allah? The obvious answer is that Prophet Muhammad had already died; whereas, his uncle was still living.

Al-Bukhari Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.

Since we know that it is acceptable to pray for other people, to ask someone living that is considered to be more pious to pray on one's behalf in addition to their own supplications should also be acceptable.

I recently read that acceptable means of Tawassul are by: 1) the Names and Attributes of Allah, 2) righteous deeds and actions, and 3) supplications made by another living righteous person.

Those who are more knowledgeable will kindly correct any errors.